Fix 2 Exploits Easily
CheesyPeteza
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9784Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9784Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">pancaking & bunnyhop scripts/mouse wheel</div> If you only allow players to jump once every 1/4 of a second this will eliminate pancaking lerk and all methods of bunnyhop automation.
Both methods involve isuing the jump command far faster than normal. Usually by using a simple script, scroll wheel, or even some keyboards have certain keys that just repeat continuously if held down. You'll never disable all methods by trying to block scripts as there is always the hardware methods.
Both methods involve isuing the jump command far faster than normal. Usually by using a simple script, scroll wheel, or even some keyboards have certain keys that just repeat continuously if held down. You'll never disable all methods by trying to block scripts as there is always the hardware methods.
Comments
If you say so, agreed however that something should be done about jump spam.
If you say so, agreed however that something should be done about jump spam. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
good luck... vets hold onto bunny hopping like its the last floatation device left on a sinking ship, dunno why yet.
bhop is not the same as jump spam... you can bhop without scripts, that is
yea... if your not a bouncing moving target in front of the marine... prepare to be instagibbed by about 15 LMG bullets lighting up your broadside.
Of course this all changes when you get leap... which is the majik ability that turns skulks from cannon fodder to ambusher.
Are you off your freaking rocker? Skulks are the most fragile they have ever been. Marines easily win without any effort involving teamwork.
Lerks can't pancake anymore. They can bank extremely fast but nowhere near as bad as pancaking was
Yanno, I'd be willing to try a no bhop build for anyone, but it won't happen, but if somehow there was a build like that then skulks had better get a nice boost
Lerks can still fly upwards at insane speeds, the only consequence now is they lose a bit of energy, so they can't do this constantly. Only when they need to escape quickly from a fire fight, which is all you need really.
I also agree if this change is made skulks will probably need a bit of beefing up.
Unless the kharaa get a pretty big buff if they lose bhop, you likely won't see any alien wins. Skulks are already fragile WITH it, without it they're just gun fodder. bunnyhopping is the only way for a gorge to outrun a marine aside from having celerity. I've run and knived countless gorges just because I CAN. That shouldn't be happening. If a gorge is going to be hopeless when it comes to one on one, it should at least be able to move faster than a marine so it has a chance to continue living. Bunnyhopping at least grants that at the moment.
Skulks were made to ambush. Don't even think of taking a marine head-on, that's suicide. The ceiling is your friend, wallwalking is there for a reason. Wait. Throw a movement chamber and some silence in there, and you have insta-death nicely wrapped in a skulk form if the skulk comes from behind. Maybe a sensory and some cloaking.
A gorge? So why should it be out there on its own? That's a big problem with the Kharaa, they definitely need more coherency on the minimap. Just like in any RTS you've EVER played: a lone builder is a DEAD builder. Have a skulk hiding behind your brand-spanking-new resource tower. Or in the next room. Or have a few down the hall to parasite the clumsy humans so your escape can be cued early. Or put down sensory chambers and get scent of fear.
Unchain the chambers, lose DMS, or die... that's the message behind Natural-selection.
Skulks were made to ambush. Don't even think of taking a marine head-on, that's suicide. The ceiling is your friend, wallwalking is there for a reason. Wait. Throw a movement chamber and some silence in there, and you have insta-death nicely wrapped in a skulk form if the skulk comes from behind. Maybe a sensory and some cloaking.
A gorge? So why should it be out there on its own? That's a big problem with the Kharaa, they definitely need more coherency on the minimap. Just like in any RTS you've EVER played: a lone builder is a DEAD builder. Have a skulk hiding behind your brand-spanking-new resource tower. Or in the next room. Or have a few down the hall to parasite the clumsy humans so your escape can be cued early. Or put down sensory chambers and get scent of fear.
Unchain the chambers, lose DMS, or die... that's the message behind Natural-selection. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In most RTS games however, the builder class doesn't cost more than the basic unit. You argument holds little water in that regard. Besides, in those games you CAN have units guarding your builders at all times. In NS, you can't afford to spare ANY people. For every gorge you have, you're an attacking unit down. For every skulk guarding the gorges, you're down another unit. So you have 3 gorges. 3 skulks defending them. effectively becoming 11v6 in a 12v12 game. Hope you made extra dinner because the marines are coming to your hive, and they're bringing their friends.
As for your comments on skulks being made for ambush. Unless you haven't noticed, that rarely ever works any more. You NEED to assault marines because sitting around over a doorway for 5 minutes hoping someone wanders by is accomplishing nothing. Even then, it still only takes 9 bullets to kill you. Motion tracking completely negates ambushes, too. You turn slightly, you've got a large blue beacon that says shoot here. move an inch? Say hi to that beacon again.
Bhop may look stupid, but it's a necessary evil. Unless, of couse, you want to jack base speeds to MUCH higher levels.
Personally I think we should ditch bunnyhopping entirely. And yes, vets, this is coming from someone who knows how to bunnyhop. It's atmosphere-damaging, it's not described in any manual or ingame text and thus completely favors the high end players. If it were a skill that the game promoted somehow and people could learn naturally that would be one thing, but bunnyhopping isn't a skill you develop with experience; you have to learn about it from an outside source.
Eliminate bunnyhopping(make aliens unable to jump again for a fraction of a second after they hit the ground?), then significantly increase the base skulk speed and maybe their HP. Also get rid of wallstrafing and the left-right button tapping to increase speed. There's enough skill to skulking as it is without throwing completely arbitrary methods of movement into the mix. Keeping bunnyhopping in doesn't leave a skill curve, it just leaves in the artificial advantage of those who know how to exploit the HL engine(I realize it's supported, but it's still unnatural).
- It would have to be disabled for lerks, having only one flap ever 1/4 of a second = not cool
- You wouldn't be able to jump up several railings or boxes at once
- You wouldn't be able to bhop up slopes, or in vents
See, the problem with a limit on jumps is that you sometimes can jump very quickly in succcession....
So, while this sounds like a good idea, it nerfs the game so much that a lot of the fun of fights (jumping off other players, buildings, railings, etc. etc.) would be removed.
I think a better solution is this, CheesyPasta:
- Make it so if you hit the jump key before you land, your player automatically preforms another jump. This is the quake system. Anyone would be able to jump quickly no matter what scripts they are using.
Could you make a plugin for this Cheesy? If you can, PM me and maybe I can help you pimp it out and try it on several servers.
Those problems you mentioned of not being able to hop up slopes and on top of boxes are exploits in my opinion, you couldn't do it manually. Also you don't need to flap the lerk more than 4 times a second. I'm not saying you can't do it currently, I'm just saying you don't need to.
Those problems you mentioned of not being able to hop up slopes and on top of boxes are exploits in my opinion, you couldn't do it manually. Also you don't need to flap the lerk more than 4 times a second. I'm not saying you can't do it currently, I'm just saying you don't need to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the plugin quake style. Hit jump before you land, and you do another jump. That would be ideal for NS.
Hopping up slopes and jumping on boxes is very easy and possible without any sort of script.
Go to the CPL this summer, and I'll show you.
Also, bhopping with only one button and no scripts is possible, but very difficult.
And flapping a lerk more than once is nessesary to hit top speed of lerkflight.
I didn't realise you meant UT style jumping for the plugin. I don't think that would suit NS really. The plugin I made for CS allowed you to simply hold down the jump button and everytime you touched the floor it'd make you jump again.
Now putting that in the game would be too much, as you would be able to bhop through:
- Vents
- Up and down slopes no matter what (currently bhopping down slopes and up them is pretty tough as aliens... but not with an auto jump)
So that is too abusive.
Again, the best solution is quake style jumping; hit jump before you land and you jump automatically upon landing. This would still require your skill to some extent, but would remove most of the timing behind it.
EDIT: And removing timing is exactly what the mousewheel and +3jumps script do right now.
The numbers don't add up that way, however. With the coming of 3.0, it doesn't take much time at all to become a skulk again. In general, you move a good portion of the team to a hive and you start dumping some resources into putting up a hive, and it's done. If a marine discovers the operation, it doesn't take long at all to mobilize the alien team and bring the fight to the marines. The way your situation sounds, you have three gorges in three different places with three different skulks covering them... again, a problem with alien coherency vs. marine coherency.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for your comments on skulks being made for ambush. Unless you haven't noticed, that rarely ever works any more. You NEED to assault marines because sitting around over a doorway for 5 minutes hoping someone wanders by is accomplishing nothing. Even then, it still only takes 9 bullets to kill you. Motion tracking completely negates ambushes, too. You turn slightly, you've got a large blue beacon that says shoot here. move an inch? Say hi to that beacon again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't just camp an area. Some of these techniques have been elevated further than most simple bunnyhopping techniqes. You round up the skulks, parasite the buggers, and catch them in close quarters. Ambushing doesn't mean simply flying from every vent and rafter, it's generally bringing the fight to where you have an advantage (an example? Acidic Solution is a better battlefield for skulks than Cargo Storage of ns_tanith). Motion tracking does negate ambushes (a tech I really never liked), BUT by then you should have higher lifeforms who will fare much better in the fray. And you hopefully also have leap, which does give you a shot at head-on combat, a much better shot at head-on than bunnyhopping will give you.
Even though bunnyjumping may seem unnatural, claiming that it ruins NS
atmosphere is a very flawed argument as NS is a sci-fi game, and normal rules of
physics only apply to a certain extent. Who's to say that a certain alien lifeform
doesn't have the ability to jump several times in succession to gain speed? The
way gazelles literally bunnyjump around when they're running for their life to get
away from something that's hunting it would be a good example in the real world.
However, the main point of keeping bunnyjumping as a game feature, the way I
see it, would be the fact that it's an extremely entertaining aspect of NS gameplay.
It adds "flavour" by giving players the possibility to to very unorthodox and unusual
moves to best their opponent. As an effect of this, it makes spectating more
entertaining for obvious reasons. The same goes for marines being able to jump
off rails, up slopes, etc. Seeing players make extraordinary escapes when faced
with overwhelming odds makes for very good entertainment. And let's not forget
the novelty value, as it makes tedious runs to get to hot-spots on maps less
dull as you're able to put your mind to use on finding good spots to jump off.
I'm not saying that NS will be boring without these features, but they sure make it
a lot more entertaining!
As for making bunnyjumping easier to learn: I'm all for it. And the idea to make
jumping like Quake jumping sounds very good. The fact that such a small part of
the community is privvy to these aspects of NS gameplay is probably the biggest
contributor to much of the dislike certain players have against players who know
how to bunnyjump. Giving everyone the chance of learning to do this more easily
will definately open up an entirely new aspect of gameplay for many players
(allthough it will be sad to see it lose it's current status as a "vet skill").
I read this. Stopped reading. And cried
I read this. Stopped reading. And cried<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone who thought he was being serious is an idiot, no offense.
It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to test out. However, I wonder how many more people will be bhopping. People would go the same max speed, but take longer to reach that if you didn't have experience, but if someone didn't learn bhopping before, I wonder if they would now. The people that don't know about bhopping would not take advantage of this and the people that knew about it but don't like using it because they consider it an exploit wouldn't either. The only people that would learn to bhop are the people that know about bhopping and wish they could, but are opposed to using scripts/mwheel or are too lazy.
Isn't is possible to simply put a limit on strafe & strafe+forward speeds?
I'm all for limiting jumping. It would only prevent being able to jump as soon as you hit the ground. You still would be able to jump often and get to ledges and ontop of boxes. It would really help level the playing field, which is the real problem for NS pub play.
Skulk speed would need to be buffed a bit though.
I'm all for limiting jumping. It would only prevent being able to jump as soon as you hit the ground. You still would be able to jump often and get to ledges and ontop of boxes. It would really help level the playing field, which is the real problem for NS pub play.
Skulk speed would need to be buffed a bit though. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is very much possible to fix, SoylentGreen has even written a fix for it.
A lot of people in this thread fail to see that Flayra WANTS bhoping in the game, and therefore wont remove it.
In normal HL you cant bhop faster than 170% of your base speed, in NS however, Flayra removed that limit.
aliens are SUPPOSED to hop
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over here <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> ----------------------------- <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
wow
Are you off your freaking rocker? Skulks are the most fragile they have ever been. Marines easily win without any effort involving teamwork.
Lerks can't pancake anymore. They can bank extremely fast but nowhere near as bad as pancaking was
Yanno, I'd be willing to try a no bhop build for anyone, but it won't happen, but if somehow there was a build like that then skulks had better get a nice boost <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was being sarcastic kkthxbye :>