Chainless Chambers, Take Two...

Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 12,842
OK, second take.

As per usual, a longer elaboration than I could hope to provide can be found here.
QUOTE
And if I haven't seen further, it's because those bloody giants have blocked my sight.
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Comments

  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,606 Fully active user
    edited May 2004
    Thank you Nemesis smile.gif

    Free them!


    Edit: Although the spelling of "Chmabers" is a bit odd tounge.gif
  • GrendelGrendel All that is fear... Join Date: 2002-07-19 Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,269
    And next time Nem, don't post polls when still recovering from your birthday. biggrin.gif

    Naturally I voted yes, although I think upgrade cost should start higher and decrease with no. of hives to avoid the "superskulk" syndrome we see in Combat.
    Playtest Lead (Retired)

    Natural Selection
  • BobTheJanitorBobTheJanitor Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Members, NS1 Playtester Posts: 1,718
    Ah but the idea was that you can only take one type of upgrade per hive. So even if you have all three chamber types maxed, you can only have one upgrade at hive one, two at hive two, etc, just like normal. Whether you can overlap upgrades from the same chamber has yet to be argued about.
  • MaDMaxXMaDMaxX Audiophile (NS sound guy) Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11835Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester Posts: 1,275
    voted yes.
    Though, i've not in this isntance taken the time to read the methodology, i've seen a couple of very workable ways of doing this in the past.

    I believe this could be of great benefit with the right working.
    image
  • DrfuzzyDrfuzzy FEW... MORE.... INCHES... Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21094Members Posts: 4,507
    Yay more remove-alien-teamwork by freaking up the hive system MORE than removing classes, great idea confused.gif
    image
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,606 Fully active user
    QUOTE (DR_FUZZY @ May 31 2004, 07:11 PM)
    Yay more remove-alien-teamwork by freaking up the hive system MORE than removing classes, great idea confused.gif

    confused.gif

    Care to explain that statement?

    This would open up so many tactical branches for the Kharaa. Imagine a Clerity skulk distracting a squad of rines while his silenced/cloaked brethern lay waste to them from behind....
  • RedfordRedford Monorailcatfjord Join Date: 2002-04-28 Member: 528Members, NS1 Playtester Posts: 2,977
    Oh noes, you better watch out or forlorn will r0x0r j00 again, nem!11


    Yes.
    Am I infected with Delicious?
  • DrfuzzyDrfuzzy FEW... MORE.... INCHES... Join Date: 2003-09-21 Member: 21094Members Posts: 4,507
    edited May 2004
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,606 Fully active user
    QUOTE (DR_FUZZY @ May 31 2004, 07:16 PM)
    Yay next version will be

    "Oh... they got the hive... Oh well keep attacking" rather than
    "OMG they got the HIVE BUILD CHAMBER HELP DEFEND" tounge.gif

    Eh? Your still not making any sense. Hives will still be very important, for the following reasons:
    • Additional Armor absorbtion
    • More Spawn Slots
    • Greater Map Control
    • Warp Points
    • Insurance against a sucessful hive rush
    • 2nd and 3rd level hive attack abilities
    • If this was to be implemented, the ability to USE a 2nd and 3rd Upgrade.
  • AnachronismAnachronism Bontãgo Programmer Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10701Members, Constellation Posts: 40
    I've always been a fan of either this idea and/or chaining abilities to chambers rather than hives as well. (they could get stronger at each chamber level, and most of the abilities fit in with one chamber more than another, eg Heal Spray if you have D chambers, etc)

    But yeah, I think unchaining chambers from the hive is a great great great idea.
    a n a c h r o n i s m
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members Posts: 1,769
    QUOTE (DR_FUZZY @ May 31 2004, 07:11 PM)
    Yay more remove-alien-teamwork by freaking up the hive system MORE than removing classes, great idea confused.gif

    whats done is done. The unchaining of evolutions to hive has a much larger impact on the teamwork than this. Since the evo's are already unchained and will not return back, I say unchain the chambers to finish the change.


    Voted: yes to unchainage
  • MagiTekMagiTek Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5057Members Posts: 521
    As others have mentioned, this idea has been suggested many times. I myself made a post about it back in the 1.04 days, and I know others had done so even before that. It has the potential to greatly add to the variety of the early game and overall benefit NS. The problem is that at this point in NS's development, it may simply be too hard to implement such a large change.

    If you were to unchain chambers right now, without any tweaking, marines would very likely get slaughtered every game. Can you imagine cloaked focus skulks during the opening minutes, regen fades later on, and never being able to attack a hive without the threat of aliens warping in via MCs? Pretty scary. Upgrade chambers have been balanced so that they are powerful individually; allowing multiple to be built right off the bat forces marines to counter every alien strat at once. It would take a ton of work to balance.

    As it stands, no one is able to organize the necessary playtesting. Flayra is busy with Unknown Worlds Entertainment, the vet program is dissolved, the playtester program is without direction, and there aren't enough people able/willing to sort out the myriad opinions of the general community. Not to mention that there are a couple major balance issues that still need to be worked out before we start overhauling something that isn't exactly "broken".

    So will this happen? Possibly, but don't get your hopes up. It would help if Flayra would state his position on this. If he hates it, it's dead in the water.
    #cri.tek
  • SariselSarisel .::' ( O ) ';:-. .-.:;' ( O ) '::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    Could make each chamber cost 5-8 res, and still make the actual upgrades dependent on hives instead of just allowing all aliens to get all 3 upgrades at first hive.
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,606 Fully active user
    edited May 2004
    QUOTE (Sarisel @ May 31 2004, 08:08 PM)
    Could make each chamber cost 5-8 res, and still make the actual upgrades dependent on hives instead of just allowing all aliens to get all 3 upgrades at first hive.

    The original idea made it quite clear that all 3 upgrades could not be had at once with only one hive. You could only choose one of those upgrades per hive.

    So while you could potentially have all 3 upgrades availalble, you could only choose one, two, or a max of three based off of the number of active hives.


    Edit: and while reducing chamber cost would help make them more accessable, thier area status effects would have to be reduced. IE Defences heal less/slower, Cloaking range reduced, MC adren boost reduced.
  • Marine0IMarine0I Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation Posts: 1,870
    Voted yes - and succumbed to peer pressure by using an avatar for the first time in my forum history. Write that date down!
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members Posts: 3,142
    edited May 2004
    Thankyou very much Nem for the poll.

    Naturally voted yes.

    I also think that we should try and keep things as simple as possible. The simpler the idea, the better chance we have of going it implimented. If we manage to get the chambers unchained we can take the idea further.

    And let the proclaimation go out from the mountains that on this day, June 1st 2004, Marine01, beloved right wing fanatic on the Natural Selection forums, did for the first time ever use an avatar.
  • UnderDOGUnderDOG Join Date: 2003-04-05 Member: 15221Members Posts: 1,349 Fully active user
    yes, cant hurt much to try it.
    Retired (?) from NS
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation Posts: 4,708 Advanced user
    QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ May 31 2004, 08:56 PM)
    The simpler the idea, the better chance we have of going it implimented. If we manage to get the chambers unchained we can take the idea further.

    ...
  • KaMiKaZe1KaMiKaZe1 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members Posts: 534
    The types of chambers should definately be unchained, but the number of traits should still be tied to hive numbers. Multiple upgrades, or multiple upgrades of the same chamber would be no good, could you imagine cloak/focus skulks in real NS, or celerity/adrenaline Lerks? Regen/carapace fades would be invincible. O.o

    Just the adaptability and variety that aliens would get from being able to choose between any of the upgrade types as well as being able to use all the passive chamber effects to their full extent would add greatly to gameplay. =]
    [FFT]KaMiKaZe!!!.r5
  • LuckyLucky Join Date: 2003-11-16 Member: 23001Members Posts: 157
    You do realiaze that now, when we've already had the vote, majority of those that are happy with the current system will likely ignore the poll completely, and it's going to be won by default by those that have actual personal interest with subject in question. Which means that this poll wll be won by those that want the change with huge majority. Not because majority of people want it, but because majority of people woudn't even care about yet another rather trivial change suggestion, especially one that was voted upon once already and had the poll closed.
    Not that I like or don't like the sugestion in question personally - I just believe that rebalancing the game with something as big as this changed is just going to take too much time to be worth it. And winning the poll by killing the interest of those opposing a suggestion in it is one of the dirtiest tricks politicians are known to pull - and I'd rather avoid gutter-level politics, especially on good forums like this one.
  • juicejuice Join Date: 2003-01-28 Member: 12886Members, Constellation Posts: 1,044
    edited June 2004
    holy crap look at those numbers... and yes I voted for unchaining too biggrin.gif

    ...although marines are going to get roxored so hard by the aliens all the time including in pubs if this gets implemented in next version, alongside knockback bug fix. (or even knockback removal) ... but aliens roxing more could be fun

    edit: damn I just realized the supreme drawback to this that will let aliens totally own... the area effect of sensory will be way overpowered in the beginning game because you will still be able to drop dcs... so, for instance, mess hall on nancy will always be cloaked at 1:00, and marines will be screwed. the counter costs more than the original attack (obs/armor1 > scs), but with chaining it was counterbalanced by the fact that sens crippled high alien forms. no more! could be frustrating always having scs around due to unchaining. there would have to be some other change to go with unchaining chambers, like making sc area of effect smaller, or making it take more than one to fully cloak an area... or increasing cost of chambers... or or... damn. guess we'd have to see how it plays out, though; this is why i vote to unchain still
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members Posts: 3,142
    QUOTE
    edit: damn I just realized the supreme drawback to this that will let aliens totally own... the area effect of sensory will be way overpowered in the beginning game because you will still be able to drop dcs... so, for instance, mess hall on nancy will always be cloaked at 1:00, and marines will be screwed. the counter costs more than the original attack (obs/armor1 > scs), but with chaining it was counterbalanced by the fact that sens crippled high alien forms. no more! could be frustrating always having scs around due to unchaining. there would have to be some other change to go with unchaining chambers, like making sc area of effect smaller, or making it take more than one to fully cloak an area... or increasing cost of chambers... or or... damn. guess we'd have to see how it plays out, though; this is why i vote to unchain still


    Doesn't anyone here remember 2.0? Sensory was THE chamber of choice, but the marines adapted and the chamber was once again sent to 3rd hive oblivian. Throwing down a sensory chamber does NOT mean GG for the marines, nor is that area now completely off limits. Commanders built multiple observatories, marines moved in groups and generally only one scan was needed to find the SC, which was quickly destroyed. Sensory can be combatted just like defense and movement. Yes, marines will probably suffer a bit whilst their stratagy adjusts, but it will adjust.

    At any rate, any speculation about this possibly beeing overpowered or underpowered is rather irrelivant: the idea has never been tested. It can be balanced through playtesting if it's implimented, and scrapped if it's impossible to balance. There is no harm in trying.
  • sawcesawce Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10787Members Posts: 720
    QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 1 2004, 02:00 AM)
    At any rate, any speculation about this possibly beeing overpowered or underpowered is rather irrelivant: the idea has never been tested. It can be balanced through playtesting if it's implimented, and scrapped if it's impossible to balance. There is no harm in trying.

    To further support this:

    If you would have asked me, during 1.x times, if unchaining life-forms from hive numbers could possibly be balanced, I would have probably laughed at you.

    It just seemed too radical of a change, but it turned out to be one of the best changes ever made to the game.
  • DeadmanDieingDeadmanDieing Join Date: 2004-02-23 Member: 26811Members, Constellation Posts: 47
    well as i see it there is really no reason to build a sensory considering its only useful for the first lets say 2 mins of the game if that

    maybe a way to boost the use of teh sen chamber is to maybe have it so it boosts all attack damage to bite? and focus just does what it does now

    i mean the only real way to use it is makeing sen chambers in groups of 3 around the whole map so you cant be seen while you are running jumping biteing

    just my thoughts on it
  • Marine0IMarine0I Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation Posts: 1,870
    QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 1 2004, 02:56 PM)
    And let the proclaimation go out from the mountains that on this day, June 1st 2004, Marine01, beloved right wing fanatic on the Natural Selection forums, did for the first time ever use an avatar.

    Tremble in fear, holders of the chains on freedom! Let it be known that from this day forth, the unassailable words of righteousness, truth and justice shall be accompanied by 6.08 kilobytes of neo-conservative knowhow.

    Even as I speak, the enemies of this freedom are plotting against us, and yet we shall go on to the end, we shall fight in the Constellation forum, we shall fight on IRC and MSN, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the general forum, we shall defend our poll, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!

    God wills it.

    Amen
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members Posts: 931
    QUOTE (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 1 2004, 01:00 AM)
    Doesn't anyone here remember 2.0? Sensory was THE chamber of choice, but the marines adapted and the chamber was once again sent to 3rd hive oblivian. ...

    At any rate, any speculation about this possibly beeing overpowered or underpowered is rather irrelivant: the idea has never been tested. It can be balanced through playtesting if it's implimented, and scrapped if it's impossible to balance. There is no harm in trying.

    Apparantly you don't remember 2.0 too clearly yourself.

    Because in the 2.0 *I* played, aliens couldn't have both Sensory and Defence down in the first minute of the game, which was what the parent post was suggesting. Regenerating sensory chambers are a pain.


    Don't get me wrong, I know I naysay'd it in the other thread, but I do like the idea. I'm just a tad concerned that people aren't thinking it all the way through here. The amount of play-testing that will be required to balance this change is going to be phenomenal, because it would blow the field wide open for aliens. And by phenomenal, I mean I see there being a distinct possibility of DukeNukem Forever being out first.

    I'm also a bit concerned with the lessened importance of hives, however I expect that'd be adjusted through the playtesting probably by nerfing 1st and 2nd hive aliens (what else is new?) and beefing 3rd.
    Why doesn't my Lerk perch?
  • Marine0IMarine0I Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation Posts: 1,870
    edited June 2004
    In the beginning days of 2.0 that Ryo is referring too - sense was the first chamber built. I remember asking "you guys want sense?" in the first week and the response was "WTH else newb". A sense network was the way to victory, especially with marines running around on their own like it was 1.04.

    Eventually the marines adapted to it, and sense became useless again. They just got obs early, learnt to hunt out the sense chamber and that was that.
  • BuggyBuggy Join Date: 2003-11-08 Member: 22400Members, Constellation Posts: 972
    edited June 2004
    IT DOESNT HURT TO TRY, NOBODY WILL DIE OR ANYTHING

    Just stick it in a Beta. If its pants, bin it, if it work, well great!
    i dont understand why you can be so stubborn as to be against this idea, because after all, i thought a beta was an early version, the version in which you can try things.
    former lerk and commando of lessthanthree <3
  • RueRue Join Date: 2002-10-21 Member: 1564Members Posts: 1,451 Advanced user
    QUOTE
    Can you imagine cloaked focus skulks during the opening minutes


    So? Can you imagine HA/LMG marines first and LA/LMG later on? wouldn't that suck?


    Ps. 85% for yes, cool smile.gif
    The Problem With Opportunity Is That It Only Knocks,
    While Temptation Kicks The Door In


  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer Posts: 2,341 Advanced user
    unchain the chambers!!

    I voted yes
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