Unchaining Evolution Chambers

RyoOhkiRyoOhki Members Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Posts: 3,142
Allowing more diverse alien stratagies
Currently alien stratagy is in a rut. Almost since the first days of NS's public release in October 2002 the chamber order has been Defense - Movement - Sensory, or DMS. Despite attempts in 2.0 to make sensory a move viable opening chamber, DMS reasserted itself with disturbing speed.

The fact of the matter is that DMS will never go away as long as the current system remains. No Onos, Fade or Lerk is going to trade regen for focus, and no alien team is going to want 2 hives without MCs connecting them.

My suggestion is almost as old as NS itself, as I first remember seeing it back when I first came onlo the forums. This issue has come up over and over again and every time it's been raised there has been widespread support, but it's never been tried out. I say that in Beta 5 we give it a shot: remove hive requirements for multiple chamber types.

And the question that is always raised is "Wait, won't that make aliens too powerful?". Not nessessarily. An alien would only be able to evolve a number of evolutionary traits equal to the number of hives. Hence, a 1 hive skulk could take regen, or focus, or silence. A 2 hive skulk could take regen and focus, but not silence as well. A 3 hive skulk could take all 3. In addition, getting 3 of each chamber costs the alien team 90 res. I say if they invest that many resources, they should be able to reap the benefits, like the marine team does.

The problem with DMS is that whilst it's great for higher lifeforms, gorges and skulks miss out. There's a lot of talk now about skulks being too weak: the main reason being they're denied the evolutions that help them the most: cloaking, focus, silence, celerity and scent of fear. Sensory chambers are of tremendous help to alien teams, but they're not used because defense or movement has to be sacrificed for them.

Giving players the option to pick and chose opens up whole new areas of stratagy and makes the game far more diverse and interesting. Marines right now can pursue a whole range of varied tactics, ranging from shotgun rushes to phase gate seige bases to slash-and-burn electrification expansions even up to HA vs JPs. The marine side can do that because their tech tree is unchained and unconstrained.

In this same forum there's talk about putting the "fear" back into NS. I can truely say as a marine that the most frightened I've been in NS was in the early days of 2.0. Cloaked aliens that you could hear but not see coming closer, striking unseen from the shadows, my team running deperately through a tunnel shooting at shadows. Unchaining the alien tech tree would go a long way to putting the fear back.

Like I said above, this is not a new idea. It's been around for over a year at least. I really think it deserves a test, and I know from previous times when this idea has been raised that others think the same way.
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Comments

  • Beer_GogglesBeer_Goggles Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-04-21 Member: 28067Posts: 41
    Add a small LOS (smaller then the cloaking range) to sensory chambers that allow it to see marines, like scent of fear, on top of their additional cloaking abilities.
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Posts: 2,291 mod
    IMO what they really need to do is:
    1) allow any number of chambers to be built any time. Opponents always imagine impossible situations where aliens have sensory+defense stations all over the map, but there simply aren't resources to do that.

    2) 1 hive = level 1 upgrades. 2 hives = level 2 upgrades. 3 hives = level 3 upgrades. You can get 3 upgrades (1 per chamber) at any time.

    this will allow for greater diversity in play style, encourage hive building, and won't destroy marines' hopes for survival.
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  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Members Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Posts: 3,142
    QUOTE
    IMO what they really need to do is:
    1) allow any number of chambers to be built any time. Opponents always imagine impossible situations where aliens have sensory+defense stations all over the map, but there simply aren't resources to do that.

    2) 1 hive = level 1 upgrades. 2 hives = level 2 upgrades. 3 hives = level 3 upgrades. You can get 3 upgrades (1 per chamber) at any time.


    Also a good idea, but I think if that was tried the cost of evolutionary upgrades should scale.

    1 hive: 1 res / upgrade

    2 hives: 2 res / upgrade

    3 hives: 3 res / upgrade

    Simply put, few players would consider a lvl 1 upgrade worth 2 res at 1 hive, whereas lvl 2 is more worth 2 res, and by 3 hives the aliens generally are swimming in res anyway.

    In addition, lvl 1 and 2 upgrades might have to be slightly buffed. Simply because as they're never used they've never really been tested.
  • BobTheJanitorBobTheJanitor Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Posts: 1,717
    The original idea would be nice to try out. The level of upgrade per hive idea is terrible. The only upgrade that's decent at only 1 or 2 chambers is focus, because it still deals decent damage but with less of a delay on the attack. But everything else is pretty much cruddy. Silence is worthless without 3 MCs. Cloaking already takes long enough to cloak with 3 SCs, let alone only 2 or 1. Regen, cara, all the upgrades are just sad if you don't have three full chambers worth of support for them.

    It sounds like a nice idea on paper. Hey, three hives, three levels of upgrades! Woo! But in game, it'd be a huge disadvantage.

    Let's not hijack this idea with a whole slew of other chamber related ideas. The original idea was well thought out and viable. I'd be happy to see it tried, but I don't know if the devs would really go for any big changes in gameplay mechanics at this point. But if they get wild and crazy, this would be great.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Members Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Posts: 3,142
    QUOTE
    Let's not hijack this idea with a whole slew of other chamber related ideas. The original idea was well thought out and viable. I'd be happy to see it tried, but I don't know if the devs would really go for any big changes in gameplay mechanics at this point. But if they get wild and crazy, this would be great.


    Fair call, Ahnteis if you want to start another thread about the upgrade lvl based on hive number then we can discuss that idea there.

    I don't think that unchaining chambers would be that big a gameplay change. If it was massively unbalancing then you could always increase the cost of cambers by a res or two. I mean, this is a beta and we're here to test stuff. As far as I know this idea has never been tested, so I say give it a shot.
  • geekanarchygeekanarchy Members Join Date: 2004-03-09 Member: 27244Posts: 56
    I think this would work wonders in getting alien strength back up near marines. Yea, this would change the game some, but for the better. I don't see how it could be that bad; when electrification first came about, that changed the game significantly, this would be similar, but in favor of alien choice.

    And for the worried marine-only players: Don't forget, it's already 30 res to get 3 of one type of chamber down. Getting 6 or 9 chambers down isn't going to happen instantly, so it's not like there are going to be cloaked, silenced, regenerating aliens at 3 minutes. And realizing that aliens will be spending more on upgrades (and the chambers themselves), it will slow down alien expansion, while allowing for slightly better alien defense.

    The biggest benefit will surely be gorges and skulks. Gorges, as they can now run off and build res. Cloak and silence will help them from being gunned down by the ever-so-prevalent ramboing marines on the way to the node. And skulks, as their use of upgrades is most beneficial with cloak, silence, or focus.

    I'm all for this => No hive limit on building chambers, hive limits number of upgrades you can gestate.
  • CreepieCreepie Members Join Date: 2003-02-19 Member: 13734Posts: 512
    I love this idea. DMS is always used for the fades and onos, so the skulks miss out. Good call.
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  • FieariFieari Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-10-22 Member: 1566Posts: 872
    If this were done, I foresee sensory would be built first, much in the manner that many tend to evolve cloaking or focus, or both, first when playing combat. That would be interesting indeed. Then when fades show up, defenses could be built, and movements'll show up when the 2nd hive is made, as normal. Sounds neat.
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  • SkyrageSkyrage Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Posts: 420
    This idea is probably the thing that NS needs...

    Ive agreed to similar ideas in the past, and it is as others say, it won't make the khaara too powerful, since getting up 9 chambers within the first 5 minutes is nearly impossible, and with the hive limitations still in place (1 upgrade per hive), the khaara wouldn't become overwhelming powerful even if they did manage to get all 9 chambers up in a short period of time...
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Members Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Posts: 3,142
    QUOTE
    If this were done, I foresee sensory would be built first, much in the manner that many tend to evolve cloaking or focus, or both, first when playing combat. That would be interesting indeed. Then when fades show up, defenses could be built, and movements'll show up when the 2nd hive is made, as normal. Sounds neat.


    When I first started playing NS that's what I imagined the alien side doing: evolving and changing to suit the game and situation. I still think that's an achieveable goal, but with the current chamber setup it can never happen.

    Good to see that this idea still has the support it had when it was first suggested.
  • DementedDemented Members Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Posts: 149
    edited May 2004
    I must say I disagree with the 1 hive, 1 upgrade level system. Level 1 upgrades are pretty weak, sometimes almost worthless. Lvl 1 carapace allows you to survive ONE more shot. I simply don't think that that would be feasible. What is use of silence if your bites still can be heard? I would taka a Lvl 3 celerity or carapaced skulk over any level 1 celerity, carapace and SoF anyday.
  • WirheWirhe Members Join Date: 2003-06-22 Member: 17610Posts: 849
    edited May 2004
    All chambers, all options.

    But only one to choose at one hive.

    Thumbs up and a smile.gif .

    (Of course, the dev.team. will ignore this yet again.)
  • ForlornForlorn Banned Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2634Posts: 6,495
    QUOTE (BobTheJanitor @ May 25 2004, 11:31 PM)
    The original idea would be nice to try out. The level of upgrade per hive idea is terrible. The only upgrade that's decent at only 1 or 2 chambers is focus, because it still deals decent damage but with less of a delay on the attack. But everything else is pretty much cruddy. Silence is worthless without 3 MCs. Cloaking already takes long enough to cloak with 3 SCs, let alone only 2 or 1. Regen, cara, all the upgrades are just sad if you don't have three full chambers worth of support for them.

    It sounds like a nice idea on paper. Hey, three hives, three levels of upgrades! Woo! But in game, it'd be a huge disadvantage.

    Let's not hijack this idea with a whole slew of other chamber related ideas. The original idea was well thought out and viable. I'd be happy to see it tried, but I don't know if the devs would really go for any big changes in gameplay mechanics at this point. But if they get wild and crazy, this would be great.

    Agreed 1000%

    Problem is, this idea has been suggested since 1.04, brought up during 3.00 playtesting, and I can't see the dev team bringing it in now, althought I personally think it would work real well.
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  • HydraHydra Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-06-14 Member: 17366Posts: 226
    I am for this idea 100%, really should happen.
  • ApolloGXApolloGX Members Join Date: 2003-09-13 Member: 20817Posts: 130
    i like the idea and everything, but i just cant see being able to drop all 3 chambers on one hive because all chambers still have their (other) purpose

    defense will still heal
    movement will still restore adren
    and sensory will still cloak - the biggest one
  • SnidelySnidely Members Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Posts: 3,893
    edited May 2004
    I've always liked the 1 upgrade per hive idea. It's certainly worth a try.

    While chambers still have their other uses, they still have their cost, as well. You'd have to control a fair number of RTs to get 10 res in any decent time.
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  • BobTheJanitorBobTheJanitor Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24228Posts: 1,717
    The res cost involved is dramatic however. You simply won't have aliens dropping little OC/DC/SC stations all around the map. It's too expensive! An alien saving from game start still doesn't get res for three chambers until about three minutes in an average game. The res has always been the limiter for everything in the game. The hive limitations seem rather awkward compared to how things work normally with lifeforms and with all marine upgrades.
  • MelatoninMelatonin Babbler Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14551Posts: 1,033
    I think this idea would breathe a bit of life back into the aliens early game..

    whole new tactics will open up!
    drop a sens with a DC at say powersub3 for the ultimate chokepoint...

    the one draw back i can forsee is as ryo said, aliens could become too powerful, it would certainly stop those rambos being so damn cockey early on though, much moreso then taking out knockback in fact..
    having to contend with the possibilty of cloaking/ or silence/ or celerity or any combinatio of the above (multiple skulks of course) would force public marines to actually work togeather more.
  • HauntedHaunted Members Join Date: 2003-03-01 Member: 14178Posts: 151
    I love the first poster's idea. It gives the aliens more freedom, and fun. So as I understand it, all 3 chambers could be build anytime, but only one upgrade can be chosen per time.

    I really hope a near version of ns has this. I'd love to skulk while cloaking, but never get the chance anymore. Anyways, ns shouldn't be a time trial early game of getting a 2nd hive and 3 defense chambers as fast as possible, it should anticipating the threat and planning accordingly.
  • NightCrawlerzNightCrawlerz Members Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15609Posts: 618
    I absolutly love this idea. i have personaly suggested it a billion times. AND I TOLD COIL T OHIS FACE THAT DMS WOULD NOT GO AWAY UNLESS THIS WAS IPLEMENTED. coil said, no no 3.0 will solve all of this. But hasnt done jack.
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  • WirheWirhe Members Join Date: 2003-06-22 Member: 17610Posts: 849
    You know that everything in "Ideas & Suggestions" is ignored -the developers need to have some thinking peace in their little, dark chamber with their propel-hats on. wink.gif
  • d0omied0omie Members Join Date: 2003-02-23 Member: 13877Posts: 245
    This is the idea which everyone has been asking for since as long as I can remember....I don't understand why it hasn't been implemented yet.

    Most alien teams don't even get 3 DCs up until 3-4 mins into the game, I don't see a problem with having the option to build all of them.

    It will make them a bit more powerfull in the early game, which is what they need.

    Although I would make the no.upgrades you can have equal to the number of hives you have had up at one point. As this is (effectivley) how it works now. Without this aliens have absolutly no chance of coming back from 2 hives to 1 hive, due to the loss of having 2 upgrades.

    Otherwise it will be aliens better early game, but much more vulnerbale in the late game.
  • Steel_BladeSteel_Blade Members Join Date: 2003-11-23 Member: 23432Posts: 35
    I like the idea very much. As it was done with lifeform evolutions, this would diversify alien's strategies.

    With this implementation there should also come that you can "re-evolve" an upgrade. Say you have a carapace skulk, and now want to gestate to regen-fade. Instead of having to type kill, you evolve regen just normally, and it would replace carapace. This would be a need when aliens lose a hive, and lose and upgrade (wich may be the one they would have conserved).

    Also, when the avaliable upgrades blink in the screen, it should tell you what lvl they are, this is just a detail but I'm tired of evolving to regen-fade and find lvl1 regen.

    Finally, this idea would remove the need for admins to restart the map when a noob alien drops the wrong chamber.

    Btw, this should be phased to Ideas and Suggestions.
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Members Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Posts: 1,769
    QUOTE (d0omie @ May 26 2004, 02:12 PM)
    This is the idea which everyone has been asking for since as long as I can remember....I don't understand why it hasn't been implemented yet.

    Even more puzzling is the fact that Flayra was the one to bring it up back in 1.04...
  • DementedDemented Members Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18573Posts: 149
    You would have to reduce the cost of gorging though. Or perhaps make MCs (the chambers, not the upgrades) more useful than they currently are.

    This won't make the aliens overpowered. Currently, they are suffering terribly in the hands of semi-decent marines.
  • RyoOhkiRyoOhki Members Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Posts: 3,142
    QUOTE
    You would have to reduce the cost of gorging though. Or perhaps make MCs (the chambers, not the upgrades) more useful than they currently are.


    I don't think gorging costs need to be reduced, but I agree that MCs might need a boost. I've seen a plethora of suggestions ranging from silencing everything around them, giving nearby aliens increased movement/attack speed, boosting the adren charge they currently give, making OC's fire faster. But that's really a topic for another thread. As it stands, simply giving the alien team the option to build MCs at 1st hive without horribly crippling their side would really help the early alien game.
  • EvenFlowEvenFlow Members Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11046Posts: 325
    edited May 2004
    Two thumbs up from me too, this is exactly what aliens need right now, it really is a bit linear for aliens at the moment, lets spice things up a bit.
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  • Malakai1Malakai1 Members Join Date: 2003-09-14 Member: 20845Posts: 101
    I love this idea. I think this is the best idea (and implimentation of said idea) I have heard yet. Flayra, please try this!
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Posts: 1,512
    For what its worth i'll once again give this idea my backing. Heres hoping the dev team are willing to give it a go smile.gif
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  • Jared101Jared101 Members Join Date: 2004-02-22 Member: 26804Posts: 279
    the whole point of there being 1 chamber per hive is so rines are able to counter and have a chance

    will be a bit harder if you have cloaking skulks,focus skulks,and regen fade all at one hive
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