Just so as not to sterotype tho, this was Al Quieda which is as we all know an extremest group, just a reminder not to steriotype all Iraqies.
P.S. I'm not saying you are, just putting that out because I noticed a lot of people doing that today... I told them Americans did the same type of thing and still do to some extent (no, i'm not talking about those pictures either)
Anyway, pretty messed up esp for a guy who was there to help rebuild the country... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I blame this on the press honestly. If the press didn't release pictures and stating we treat Iraqi prisoners badly, this would of never happened. Sure the guy would of still (probably) of gotten caught, but I highly doubt his head would of been much less lighter.
And humanity trudges on, blissfully unware of what a joke it has become, and ignorant to its destiny to ultimately destroy itself because somebody believes something different than the other person.
Man, if I had a "Destroy the World" button, that sucker would have been pressed a long time ago. I see nothing but hate, lies, and greed on the front page of the newspaper. I swear, today there was not a single good bit of news on the front page.
*sigh* and no matter who you blame for this, nothing is going to change, something else just as bad will happen eventually, and humanity will continue on its way to destruction.
/glass of beer is not half empty, its all the way empty, I need another one.
This cat was a civvie. He was rebuilding their damned **** country! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> heh
remember the japanese workers that were taken hostage and later released?
When they arrived home everyone jeered them for going to iraq.
Even though they went only to help rebuild and help people. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+May 12 2004, 11:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ May 12 2004, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> War is <i>Hell</i>. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I think this "life" that I am living is hell
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Mullet+May 12 2004, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ May 12 2004, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've seen the video of Nicholas Berg's execution, and I could find a link if anyone wants to see what kind of **** we really are fighting. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm tempted to watch it, but I don't want to. I'm just too damn curious.
Terrorists are torturing and murdering civilians, government's are invading countries, all the guilty are out to play and the civilians are the ones taking the cop.
And we sit on forums saying how the world is going to the shits because nobody is going out there and dealing with all the bad people and things in life. People are dying horribly and prematurely, and the media is condemning. Everybody is content to sit by the sidelines and provide running commentary about how somebody should stand up and start doing something. It's not a case of not being able to do anything. It's a case of not wanting to consider that there's something you can do, and are obligated to do.
There are many bad people, things and forces in the world. Terrorists are just another branch, and they are just another brand of scum. You do not bring justice to terrorists with loud clunky armies. You just bring terror to a country. We sit here counting up the soldier fatalities, while the terorrists walk around in public, unafraid.
I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness. Why are we spending millions of dollars and years of time, for police forces of many nations to barge down the doors of teenage warez junkies?
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
Actually things like this happened on both sides long before the "media told everybody about it." If only people used decent news sources.
Edit: you can help to resolve it by not being ignorant and looking for the truth, not having the parts that are interesting only being handed to you "every hour, only on xx."
<!--QuoteBegin-eediot+May 13 2004, 02:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eediot @ May 13 2004, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Terrorists are torturing and murdering civilians, government's are invading countries, all the guilty are out to play and the civilians are the ones taking the cop.
And we sit on forums saying how the world is going to the shits because nobody is going out there and dealing with all the bad people and things in life. People are dying horribly and prematurely, and the media is condemning. Everybody is content to sit by the sidelines and provide running commentary about how somebody should stand up and start doing something. It's not a case of not being able to do anything. It's a case of not wanting to consider that there's something you can do, and are obligated to do.
There are many bad people, things and forces in the world. Terrorists are just another branch, and they are just another brand of scum. You do not bring justice to terrorists with loud clunky armies. You just bring terror to a country. We sit here counting up the soldier fatalities, while the terorrists walk around in public, unafraid.
I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness. Why are we spending millions of dollars and years of time, for police forces of many nations to barge down the doors of teenage warez junkies?
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
eediot out <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't equate terrorism with military actions. Read the Geneva Conventions.
...and before anyone says it, no, I am not condoning the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners of war by US soldiers or any other misdeeds by military powers. Such actions can and should be investigated and prosecuted under the international laws of warfare (such as the Geneva Conventions).
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+May 13 2004, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ May 13 2004, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't equate terrorism with military actions. Read the Geneva Conventions. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You misunderstood me. I was not at all referring to the mistreatment of prisoners by US soldiers, or any atrocities US soldiers may have caused on the Iraqi people. However, I am referring to the fact that the US [and other country's] army is in occupation of Iraq. "Terrorist" excuse or no, they still have an army in the country, and I know i would be just a little apprehensive if the US brought an army into Australia. The only army I want in Australia is the Australian army.
Just in case you want to contest the above opinion, let me just once more try and express myself so we can get back to the topic at hand... Right now, for my point(s), I'm not interested in what reasons are given for the stationing of US troops in Iraq. It could be protection, it could be defense, it could be another reason. But sending an army to occupy another country, is still occupying it with military power. The purpose, to 'fight terrorism', does not require an army. That was my point originally.
Now, let's get back to people agreeing with me... or... not.
<!--QuoteBegin-Paranoia-2MB+May 12 2004, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paranoia-2MB @ May 12 2004, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I blame this on the press honestly. If the press didn't release pictures and stating we treat Iraqi prisoners badly, this would of never happened. Sure the guy would of still (probably) of gotten caught, but I highly doubt his head would of been much less lighter. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm, restricting the press for american military benifit... I remeber another country that used to do that, it was called Nazi Germany.
The public has a right to know this kinda stuff, you can't just hide it because it's contravesial or because it make America look bad. I agree with you that it was brodcast much more unsanctimoniously then it should have been, but the information should always be available to those who want to see it.
Sucks that more people had to die here, I wish that these extremists had more of an idea what they are actually working towards and less of this mindless "kill the evil infidels" type crap going on. In the long run this kind of incident is just going to ruin a bunch more peoples lives. Now the americans are gonna have to kill the terror group leader guy, and no doubt his death will just bring about a backlash of more killing and ruined lives. Extreamism sucks, muslims need to learn to ridicule and humiliate thier extreamists into submission the way we do in the west.
Actually killing the leader of an extremist group might produce some small spontanous unplanned attack like the attacks on convoys in Iraq, whereas killing innocent people and doing unethical things like invading countries (in their view not mine) would produce rather planed out, hatred based attacks like the ones on USA on 11/9.
<!--QuoteBegin-Paranoia-2MB+May 13 2004, 05:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paranoia-2MB @ May 13 2004, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I blame this on the press honestly. If the press didn't release pictures and stating we treat Iraqi prisoners badly, this would of never happened. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Best. Statement. Ever.
Did it not occur to you that if "you" were not mistreating Iraqi prisoners in the first place, the press would have no pictures to release and nothing to state? The press just tells what it hears. I blame the soldiers (whatever nationality) who are mistreating the prisoners (whatever nationality), not the press.
<!--QuoteBegin-Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+May 13 2004, 05:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ May 13 2004, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Paranoia-2MB+May 13 2004, 05:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paranoia-2MB @ May 13 2004, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I blame this on the press honestly. If the press didn't release pictures and stating we treat Iraqi prisoners badly, this would of never happened. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Best. Statement. Ever.
Did it not occur to you that if "you" were not mistreating Iraqi prisoners in the first place, the press would have no pictures to release and nothing to state? The press just tells what it hears. I blame the soldiers (whatever nationality) who are mistreating the prisoners (whatever nationality), not the press. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I should of rewrote that.
It's the press + the military's fault.
Military shouldn't be mistreating prisoners. and The Press shouldn't be letting such information leak out.
Even though some soldiers take pics and send 'em to family. Kind of a hard thing to stop I suppose.
<!--QuoteBegin-Venmoch+May 13 2004, 04:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Venmoch @ May 13 2004, 04:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe that we should all become Communist.
At the least we'll get the impression everything is OK. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmmm
I think we aren't too far from it, but a new form of Communism.
<!--QuoteBegin-Paranoia-2MB+May 12 2004, 11:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Paranoia-2MB @ May 12 2004, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Press shouldn't be letting such information leak out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If not by the free flow of information, how exactly do you intend to stop such abuse from happening? <b>You're suggesting a more pragmatic solution to a problem created by that very approach.</b>
Yeah, why don't we just make that "democracy" bit for show only, and skip all the necessitys for a functioning democracy. After all, we're already halfway there. Good frickin' idea genius!
But you still have to believe that these pictures and information just brought up more crud between the US and Iraq.
Also with people on US soil, knowing how some of our people are tree huggin hippies <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You're not going to get anywhere by the censorship and halt of the spread of free information. People already tried that, and it didn't work. It just.. takes a while for "certain people" to realise that and stop doing it.
I thought that the press had been sitting on this information for 2 weeks prior to release..
We should get out of Iraq now and let the humanitarian catastrophe that will happen, happen. Whatever puppet governing body is put in place now will be gone in a couple of years. The region will be destabilised and US/UK resentment has increased.
We lose out, terrorsist factions win. By the coalition's action and treatment of civilians (I mean US for the time being), what goodwill there was has dried up.
Back on topic. Yes I am shocked by the murder of the US contract worker. Am I suprised; no. If the alleged tapes or pictures surface that show US soldiers allowing guard dogs to savage and kill a prisoner are real, it makes the moral platform we normally preach from very precarious.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-eediot+May 13 2004, 01:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eediot @ May 13 2004, 01:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness.
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
eediot out <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> just out of curioisty, but would that be like the Isreal/Palistininan way of doing things? When you speak of "offsensivly dealing with terrorsim?"
Suicide bomber blows up crowd, killing Isreali civilians, so Isreal retaliates by launching missiles from apache helicopters into suspected militiants car in the middle of a crowded public market thus killing more civilians and in many cases only killing the suspects kids and wife from faulty intel,
thus palistininan sided extremists shout for revenge so they bomb somewhere else, so isreal bulldozes/occupies entire towns where suspected militinants might be hiding thus screwing the civilan pupulation... Sometimes cutting off supplies into the cities and preventing emgercency services like ambualnces from going to whre they need to go etc.
Also with people on US soil, knowing how some of our people are tree huggin hippies <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, why don't we cheer on anything our boys do. Hey guys, Vietnam was a great idea - keep those bloodbaths coming. Let me get right onto ordering my "I support our troops and their torture" T-Shirt.
No really Paranoia, <b>public criticism is a vital part of any functioning democracy</b>. Understand this : Everything that the United States of America does technically has the backing of its people - who agreed to the democratic election process, which in turn produced the member of the executive known as the President. His actions, as well as direct and indirect results thereof, are intended to underly intense public scrutiny - this is not just something that happens, this is something that you as a citizen are supposed to stand for.
And since you so nobly defend censorship here, would you like to stand for torure? I'm sure you wouldn't, and the world has every reason to be angry at America for mismanaging itself so.
Your replys show too well whats wrong with current America - its commonly not treated so much as a democracy, but as a spectator sport feudalistic system, where your involvement is token at best.
I still believe that people do back the decisions that the US does, but It's mostly congress who makes up the whole lump sum.
I'm two sided on censorship, it's good for some things and bad for others.
I have also been led to believe that the President isn't the true leader of the country. I believe he is more of the spokesmen for Congress which tells him what to do. So it's Congress, not the President that has rule over the country.
Hence "member of the executive" (afaik, not being a US citizen yet I wouldn't know where they draw the line between legislature and executive here, but usually the head of any state is considered part of the executive branch). Congress is part of the legislature, anyway.
Either way, the point here is that the US, being formed around the same basic ideas as many other modern states, came to the conclusion way back then that prohibiting freedom of expression and exchange of information normally leads to a constrained and malinformed society incapable of gathering the information needed to make its own decisions, which it has to do to be part of the democratic process.
Unfortunately, that very basic and true insight is diluted by a good few nooks and crannies in the constitution (indecency comes to mind) from what I understand, which in turn allows a fairly broad spectrum of censorship already. Hence the comment that we're already "halfway there" as far as giving permission to be misinformed and deliberately manipulated goes.
There is, under a democratic system, no good side to censorship. Its extremely abuse prone, it goes against its principles and it serves extremely short-term goals at best (like hiding the fact you're doing the polar opposite of what you said you'd do). If we change systems, I'd agree with you, censorship can make running a facist regime for example alot easier - but sorry to break it to all you conspiracy theorists, we're not there yet <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Just so as not to sterotype tho, this was Al Quieda which is as we all know an extremest group, just a reminder not to steriotype all Iraqies.
P.S. I'm not saying you are, just putting that out because I noticed a lot of people doing that today... I told them Americans did the same type of thing and still do to some extent (no, i'm not talking about those pictures either)
Anyway, pretty messed up esp for a guy who was there to help rebuild the country... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Man, if I had a "Destroy the World" button, that sucker would have been pressed a long time ago. I see nothing but hate, lies, and greed on the front page of the newspaper. I swear, today there was not a single good bit of news on the front page.
*sigh* and no matter who you blame for this, nothing is going to change, something else just as bad will happen eventually, and humanity will continue on its way to destruction.
/glass of beer is not half empty, its all the way empty, I need another one.
This cat was a civvie. He was rebuilding their damned **** country! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
heh
remember the japanese workers that were taken hostage and later released?
When they arrived home everyone jeered them for going to iraq.
Even though they went only to help rebuild and help people. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually, I think this "life" that I am living is hell
I've seen the video of Nicholas Berg's execution, and I could find a link if anyone wants to see what kind of **** we really are fighting.
I'm tempted to watch it, but I don't want to. I'm just too damn curious.
And we sit on forums saying how the world is going to the shits because nobody is going out there and dealing with all the bad people and things in life. People are dying horribly and prematurely, and the media is condemning. Everybody is content to sit by the sidelines and provide running commentary about how somebody should stand up and start doing something. It's not a case of not being able to do anything. It's a case of not wanting to consider that there's something you can do, and are obligated to do.
There are many bad people, things and forces in the world. Terrorists are just another branch, and they are just another brand of scum. You do not bring justice to terrorists with loud clunky armies. You just bring terror to a country. We sit here counting up the soldier fatalities, while the terorrists walk around in public, unafraid.
I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness. Why are we spending millions of dollars and years of time, for police forces of many nations to barge down the doors of teenage warez junkies?
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
eediot out
Edit: you can help to resolve it by not being ignorant and looking for the truth, not having the parts that are interesting only being handed to you "every hour, only on xx."
And we sit on forums saying how the world is going to the shits because nobody is going out there and dealing with all the bad people and things in life. People are dying horribly and prematurely, and the media is condemning. Everybody is content to sit by the sidelines and provide running commentary about how somebody should stand up and start doing something. It's not a case of not being able to do anything. It's a case of not wanting to consider that there's something you can do, and are obligated to do.
There are many bad people, things and forces in the world. Terrorists are just another branch, and they are just another brand of scum. You do not bring justice to terrorists with loud clunky armies. You just bring terror to a country. We sit here counting up the soldier fatalities, while the terorrists walk around in public, unafraid.
I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness. Why are we spending millions of dollars and years of time, for police forces of many nations to barge down the doors of teenage warez junkies?
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
eediot out <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't equate terrorism with military actions. Read the Geneva Conventions.
...and before anyone says it, no, I am not condoning the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners of war by US soldiers or any other misdeeds by military powers. Such actions can and should be investigated and prosecuted under the international laws of warfare (such as the Geneva Conventions).
You misunderstood me. I was not at all referring to the mistreatment of prisoners by US soldiers, or any atrocities US soldiers may have caused on the Iraqi people. However, I am referring to the fact that the US [and other country's] army is in occupation of Iraq. "Terrorist" excuse or no, they still have an army in the country, and I know i would be just a little apprehensive if the US brought an army into Australia. The only army I want in Australia is the Australian army.
Just in case you want to contest the above opinion, let me just once more try and express myself so we can get back to the topic at hand... Right now, for my point(s), I'm not interested in what reasons are given for the stationing of US troops in Iraq. It could be protection, it could be defense, it could be another reason. But sending an army to occupy another country, is still occupying it with military power. The purpose, to 'fight terrorism', does not require an army. That was my point originally.
Now, let's get back to people agreeing with me... or... not.
Hmmm, restricting the press for american military benifit... I remeber another country that used to do that, it was called Nazi Germany.
The public has a right to know this kinda stuff, you can't just hide it because it's contravesial or because it make America look bad. I agree with you that it was brodcast much more unsanctimoniously then it should have been, but the information should always be available to those who want to see it.
Sucks that more people had to die here, I wish that these extremists had more of an idea what they are actually working towards and less of this mindless "kill the evil infidels" type crap going on. In the long run this kind of incident is just going to ruin a bunch more peoples lives. Now the americans are gonna have to kill the terror group leader guy, and no doubt his death will just bring about a backlash of more killing and ruined lives. Extreamism sucks, muslims need to learn to ridicule and humiliate thier extreamists into submission the way we do in the west.
At the least we'll get the impression everything is OK.
Best. Statement. Ever.
Did it not occur to you that if "you" were not mistreating Iraqi prisoners in the first place, the press would have no pictures to release and nothing to state? The press just tells what it hears. I blame the soldiers (whatever nationality) who are mistreating the prisoners (whatever nationality), not the press.
Best. Statement. Ever.
Did it not occur to you that if "you" were not mistreating Iraqi prisoners in the first place, the press would have no pictures to release and nothing to state? The press just tells what it hears. I blame the soldiers (whatever nationality) who are mistreating the prisoners (whatever nationality), not the press. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should of rewrote that.
It's the press + the military's fault.
Military shouldn't be mistreating prisoners.
and
The Press shouldn't be letting such information leak out.
Even though some soldiers take pics and send 'em to family.
Kind of a hard thing to stop I suppose.
At the least we'll get the impression everything is OK. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm
I think we aren't too far from it, but a new form of Communism.
If not by the free flow of information, how exactly do you intend to stop such abuse from happening? <b>You're suggesting a more pragmatic solution to a problem created by that very approach.</b>
Yeah, why don't we just make that "democracy" bit for show only, and skip all the necessitys for a functioning democracy. After all, we're already halfway there. Good frickin' idea genius!
:X
But you still have to believe that these pictures and information just brought up more crud between the US and Iraq.
Also with people on US soil, knowing how some of our people are tree huggin hippies <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We should get out of Iraq now and let the humanitarian catastrophe that will happen, happen. Whatever puppet governing body is put in place now will be gone in a couple of years. The region will be destabilised and US/UK resentment has increased.
We lose out, terrorsist factions win. By the coalition's action and treatment of civilians (I mean US for the time being), what goodwill there was has dried up.
Back on topic. Yes I am shocked by the murder of the US contract worker. Am I suprised; no. If the alleged tapes or pictures surface that show US soldiers allowing guard dogs to savage and kill a prisoner are real, it makes the moral platform we normally preach from very precarious.
I say it's time to bring the terror to the terrorists, and go after them with staggering effectiveness.
Don't think about the issue. Think about how you can resolve it.
eediot out <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
just out of curioisty, but would that be like the Isreal/Palistininan way of doing things? When you speak of "offsensivly dealing with terrorsim?"
Suicide bomber blows up crowd, killing Isreali civilians, so Isreal retaliates by launching missiles from apache helicopters into suspected militiants car in the middle of a crowded public market thus killing more civilians and in many cases only killing the suspects kids and wife from faulty intel,
thus palistininan sided extremists shout for revenge so they bomb somewhere else, so isreal bulldozes/occupies entire towns where suspected militinants might be hiding thus screwing the civilan pupulation... Sometimes cutting off supplies into the cities and preventing emgercency services like ambualnces from going to whre they need to go etc.
Suicide bombers retaliate again, Isreal retaliates again...
Repeat 1,000,000+ times
Also with people on US soil, knowing how some of our people are tree huggin hippies <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, why don't we cheer on anything our boys do. Hey guys, Vietnam was a great idea - keep those bloodbaths coming. Let me get right onto ordering my "I support our troops and their torture" T-Shirt.
No really Paranoia, <b>public criticism is a vital part of any functioning democracy</b>. Understand this : Everything that the United States of America does technically has the backing of its people - who agreed to the democratic election process, which in turn produced the member of the executive known as the President. His actions, as well as direct and indirect results thereof, are intended to underly intense public scrutiny - this is not just something that happens, this is something that you as a citizen are supposed to stand for.
And since you so nobly defend censorship here, would you like to stand for torure? I'm sure you wouldn't, and the world has every reason to be angry at America for mismanaging itself so.
Your replys show too well whats wrong with current America - its commonly not treated so much as a democracy, but as a spectator sport feudalistic system, where your involvement is token at best.
I'm two sided on censorship, it's good for some things and bad for others.
I have also been led to believe that the President isn't the true leader of the country. I believe he is more of the spokesmen for Congress which tells him what to do. So it's Congress, not the President that has rule over the country.
Either way, the point here is that the US, being formed around the same basic ideas as many other modern states, came to the conclusion way back then that prohibiting freedom of expression and exchange of information normally leads to a constrained and malinformed society incapable of gathering the information needed to make its own decisions, which it has to do to be part of the democratic process.
Unfortunately, that very basic and true insight is diluted by a good few nooks and crannies in the constitution (indecency comes to mind) from what I understand, which in turn allows a fairly broad spectrum of censorship already. Hence the comment that we're already "halfway there" as far as giving permission to be misinformed and deliberately manipulated goes.
There is, under a democratic system, no good side to censorship. Its extremely abuse prone, it goes against its principles and it serves extremely short-term goals at best (like hiding the fact you're doing the polar opposite of what you said you'd do). If we change systems, I'd agree with you, censorship can make running a facist regime for example alot easier - but sorry to break it to all you conspiracy theorists, we're not there yet <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->