How Do You Save Rts?
Ballisto
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
Join Date: 2003-05-19 Member: 16503Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Against rt hungry skulks and fades</div> The simple answer: shoot the aliens
The costly, ineffective answer: electrify
The nub turtling answer: built a turret farm (actually works for double res...)
I need a real answer! Lone skulks give you enough time to get a marine there to save it, but then he has to spend 10 years welding it (ARG!).
However, the big trouble is those roving groups of 2-3+ skulks, often from the a clan, guys with voice comm and teamwork, who chew through rts INCREDIBLY fast. They'll work their way across the map and you'll wonder what happened to your res income. You can't rebuild as fast as they destroy. And it ain't cost effective anyway. Electricity solves that problem. For about a minute.
Then come the fades. Any rts that survive the skulks thanks to their electrification (is that a word? heh) get pwned by the mighty fades, who are probably the biggest **** for comms ever.
So... how do you clanners comms do it? Help us comm challenged children! (like the aliteration? I know you do!!)
The costly, ineffective answer: electrify
The nub turtling answer: built a turret farm (actually works for double res...)
I need a real answer! Lone skulks give you enough time to get a marine there to save it, but then he has to spend 10 years welding it (ARG!).
However, the big trouble is those roving groups of 2-3+ skulks, often from the a clan, guys with voice comm and teamwork, who chew through rts INCREDIBLY fast. They'll work their way across the map and you'll wonder what happened to your res income. You can't rebuild as fast as they destroy. And it ain't cost effective anyway. Electricity solves that problem. For about a minute.
Then come the fades. Any rts that survive the skulks thanks to their electrification (is that a word? heh) get pwned by the mighty fades, who are probably the biggest **** for comms ever.
So... how do you clanners comms do it? Help us comm challenged children! (like the aliteration? I know you do!!)
Comments
Theres tons of talk about how to tech, electrify, lockdown and whatnot, but the best defense for your RTs and whatnot is often overlooked - simply using the terrain and your marines to gain an advantage. Force a battle where you like it, and everything will start going your way - for example setup camp in an open area outside Alien spawn (Keyhole to Maint Hive, Eastern Entrance to AE35, Cold Turn to Hamasaki, C3 to Cargo, RP2 to tunnel, Sloop to CC/Maint and the list goes endlessly on).
Really, ressource towers are just a side effect of your success on the field - if you're getting owned out there, you'll be unable to hold many RTs. If you're kicking ****, you'll have every damn RT without any effort. Electrification is not for defending nodes, its more of a speciality weapon to deny lucrative alien nodes, cover PGs, protect TFacs or prevent comebacks.
Ps- Turet farm on double res nahhhh waste of res wich doesnt payoff use pg with 1 marine defending othe GET TO THE HIVE
After the initial RT building frenzy in a pub game , the aliens will probably be saving for higher life forms or hive and no one will want to gorge and replace those RTs.
or send my marines on patrols which i learnt myself as commander basicly they run back n forth to each rt to keep skulks away and if they come across a fade i send 2 marines with shottys around the fade if possible to block him in.
Well, not always. its not s standard thing ppl. its adding up costs and gains.
If they waste a RT and we can take a choke point then by all means let them have it. We will choke them and get it back later.
Also remember if they waste it they still gotta build there own. Do NOT let them. Rine RTs work better then kharaa. If we run on 1 and they we will have the better run. Build RTs if you can but wasting res on defense is useless. Simply rebuild and use the time there attacking to take more valued points of the map.
Enought have lost there hives cause they were busy with RTs on the other side of the map.
Mining the RT can sometimes be worth it if done correctly
Being on the offensive is good to scare the skulks away from attacking your base.
Have 1 marine patrol the RTs, even if he dies he may of killed several skulks if their chewing on a RT.
If there a TRUE pain....
Research grenades
have the patroller pull grenade
throw at RT
Get 3-4 kills from grenade
If its a fade though.....hehehe.......good luck and remember shotties and blocking a fade is key.
Mining the RT can sometimes be worth it if done correctly
Being on the offensive is good to scare the skulks away from attacking your base.
Have 1 marine patrol the RTs, even if he dies he may of killed several skulks if their chewing on a RT.
If there a TRUE pain....
Research grenades
have the patroller pull grenade
throw at RT
Get 3-4 kills from grenade
If its a fade though.....hehehe.......good luck and remember shotties and blocking a fade is key.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you mean:
1 Electrified RT(15 +30 = 45) = 3 Normal RTs (15 + 15 +15 = 45)
Though I would question the idea of just having one marine patrolling the rts. Quite often on public servers, marines drop like flies to skulks, even when they have the drop on them while they are eating RTs. Plus each marine gets only 1 grenade per spawn, hardly a useful item to deter skulks from eating RTs. Even if that marine is successful the first time he can't use the grenade until he dies, respawns, and then runs all the way back. I would think for skulks eating RTs (Fades are a whole other issue), mines are a cheap way to deter skulks early on. Smart placement of mines can be very cheap but effective. Naturally you will have to replenish the mines on occasion but, after a couple of deaths from mined rts, most skulks will learn to avoid rts, concentrate on the one rt they know mines are empty at (meaning the others are safe), or take their sweet time trying to attack RTs. Eithe way that goes you either buy yourself time for your RTs or protect them straight out. Keep in mind that 1 pack of 4 mines is as expensive as one whole turret but, requires no tf to power it, nor are they as easy to spot as a turret or electirfication.
And of course, the count to a roving team of skulks is a roving team of marines....from afar (and that's where the problem starts)
I give you an example of when saltz commed us on ayumi, their hive was ae35, we just sat in eastern entrance for ages and they couldn't do anything to move us and meanwhile a person just ran around capping everything. They couldn't attack our rts because we were pressuring them too much, we just ended up walking in and shotgunning their hive. Insanely easy.
If we'd ran around the map just constantly capping rts over and over again we wouldn't have won as comfortably and we'd have been playing on the aliens terms rather than our own.
QUite often, marines find a skulk chomping an rt, but the rt blocks the marine's shots. Marine moves in close, >50% chance of being chomped.
Those mines stop that. Skulk avoids mines, gets raped by marine. Skulk avoids marine, gets smithereened by mine.
At 1-2 mines per RT, this is a cheap and effective tactic, and you don't lose much if a fade comes.
The other way, as mentioned, is pressure. A marine ninja killing alien rts isn't as effective, simply because he is easier to kill, and is slower. A skulk may die, but can soon get to the nodes again.
However, if that ninja gets a shotgun to fast-kill RTs (2 clips), or some mines (drop around alien rt to guard marine) to cover him while knifing.
This is what I found works best so far, but is dependant on the quality of your team. Nades theoretically are good, but the 3 second prime time and the PING sound of it priming make it utterly worthless.
If you attack their RTs and/or hives they usually have zero-time to attack your RTs ( another great aspect of not-elect is that you can move around the map incredible fast ).
If 6 rines attack your main hive those 3 clanners which stand at the other side of the map attacking your RTs are quite **** as you will mow down theyr hive in no time.
Oh just as a side-note - i usualy start electing when i get so much res i cannot spend anymore (full jp flying around and 200 RES left, to make sure those lill skulls won't mow my RTs down while i rape theyr hives )
However guys, i would be wary at taking Saltzbad's advice. Saltz only ever wins about 2 in 10 games, and the multitude that he loses is because of bad res node management. Trust me, i've been that single skulk that takes down 7-8 unelectrified nodes per game. Usually 2-3 per node. Res is the key to the game, without res, you lose, simple as that.
Electrification may seem expensive, and yes it takes time to pull back the res you invest. But if you think about it, what's worse. Spending 45 res to place and electrify a node, or spend that 45 res rebuilding your undefended nodes over and over again. Because a single, 0 upgrade skulk can take down as many unelectrified nodes as he likes, it takes a 2 hive gorge or a fade / onos to take down a single electrified node.
Hence yes, I lose frequently on pubs. You might notice though, with just a few reliable players (Sancho, Bob, Ben) I'll almost never loose unless raped into oblivion in the first 4 minutes. Ever wonder why?
And ironically, the same people on the Alien team, although none of us are especially good, will defeat electrification strats 100% of the time. Marines get contained fast due to lack of ups and non-aggressive strategy, we plow along nicely with the 4 minute fades and DCs and from there on the game is over minus a few complaints from the marines about balance.
You can make it with a bar or so more than half, versus a single alien. Don't obsess over it though, your time is better spent with your marines, across the map, capping a res over there. I rarely see a node recycled in a scrim because it's not worth the 6 res to sit there watching.
Imo best way is continually push aliens, try to take/hold certain vital points of map with skilled marines and then skulks just cant/dont run past them to eat RTs, if they do its easy for newly spawn marine to go there/kill it before RT is lost (single skulk needs 50secs to kill RT, 2 skulks need just 17seconds!!).
So even if you have hives locked, send your marines to crossroads near first hive, block aliens off and send some newly spawn rines to rebuild/hunt escaped skulks. Fades usually break this, but at fade time you should be preparing for deciding attack anyway..
Elect could be answer only if you are dealing with weak aliens, the problem is that you need upgrades continually, and if you spend res on electricity, you can have HA train later, but chances are rines will be overrun early (because of lacking upgrades) unable to grab more nodes.
By the 50secs skulk needs to kill it RT makes more res than res got back by recycling.
Unbuilt structures are recycled more efficiently, giving 80% of res back, so always try to recycle unbuilt structures.
On the other hand if you skulk and see finished RT being recycled, move away and try to kill another RT (comm just wasted res and saved your time!!). But if you see recycling unbuilt RT and have another skulk around try to kill it...
The way I see it, you have to think of your RTs in terms of how close to the core of your base they are.
You never mine or electrify the RT in base. That's just dumb unless it's one of those bizarre maps where the MS RT is off in some godawful side room or something.
The second ring of RTs, which are the ones that are a thirty to fortyfive second jog from the IPs, are the ones you want to mine. Most maps have two RTs that are the inner ring for marines, sometimes three. If you drop a pack of mines for each RT, thats twenty to thirty res to cover two to three RTs completely. Mines force any increasingly stupid and persistent skulk to stand away from the RT's blindspot and constantly listen for footsteps, meaning the first guy who gets there either kills or pulls away the skulk and saves the day. Problem solved. Mines are the cheapest, most hassle free way for a com to let his team secure nearby RTs by themselves. If you know people on the server well enough to trust them, two guys with a pack of mines each will guarantee you won't fall below three RTs at a time.
The only time I would consider electrifying RTs or using turret defenses is when it's some key position where electricity or turrets would make the positions extremely dangerous for aliens. This would be the third ring of marine expansion, which can include Double res, hive locations, and RT deeper in enemy territory, such that you might encounter on ns_nothing, ns_agora, ns_mineshaft and so forth, but mines are still totally viable depending on how closely the com and his team are working.
I draw a comparrison with mines to web. Mines and web are extremely basic and versatile, but only when the person using them is a smart, experienced player with a plan for their use. Not only that, but unless the skulk knows they are there, seldom will they check the first time, meaning you get 1 to 3 res back on the mines almost guaranteed, and more bonus RFK from there. Mines placed near the center of a res node are nearly invisible in the blur of the game, making the apparently undefended RT look irresistable. This is another plus for mines, usually a pack of well placed mines will all result in a kill, sometimes two or three depending on the crowd. Unlike turret farms and the Blue Glow of Death, mined RTs are much harder to spot, since they look deliciously undefended at a glance.
I can get you four or even five kills for the ten res you drop on me for a pack of mines, not to mention I don't have to be in the same place as the objective to defend it. In that respect, you're better off dropping me a pack of mines every two minutes of the game than you are shotguns at roughly the same rate.
And we don't even need to start talking about the potential of mine ladders.
I'm going to personally start a campaign of Mine Advancement, where-in I play hours of CO games one week getting record numbers of mine kills, then the next week play only NS games and ask for mines and see if anyone was paying attention the week before. Social engineering<span style='color:yellow'><3</span></span>
this comment is gold. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Today I have to buckle down and write some things for my classes, but if I have time at the end of the day, I'll do that, and edit them into this post.
Update to follow:
Sorry for the massive size.
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What about me? I'm reliable.....sometimes....almost....
Heck, as long as its not the "Wheres Keyhole?" crowd I'm happy.