if you want to help out skulks... dont do so with a tiny HP boost... Make it so Marines dont get RFK when killing skulks so you can use them in a suicidal manner.
The 1.04 skulk was only good because of the overpowered carapace. Otherwise they were easy to kill. In order of effectiveness, I'd say it ranked this way:
#1) 2.01 Skulk #2) 3.0b3 Skulk #3) 1.04 Skulk
And about the hitboxes, I have never experienced any problem with them until now in 3.0. Yknow that "sparks" bug.
I think a critical issue that is being ovrlooked is that I believe that many times marines STILL get away with avoiding bites by jumping around like noobs on crack.
Let's be honest here. When most people play skulk, they usually aim UP from the ground when they bite. (they don't bite at a person's feet, they aim for the midsection) Now since bunny-hopping (as people know it) was removed, marines are limited in how far they can hop away. (even though this can still be exploited with knockback, but I won't get into that since it annoys me to no end.)
Anyway, if you are aiming for a marine's belt and that marine jumps, should that make ANY difference in whether you will land another hit?
No.
If the marine is on the ground or 1-2 feet off the ground the bite is still aimed at the marine body by nature of where it was first pointed and the fact that the marine is significantly bigger than the skulk.
Jumping while being attcked should NOT make a measurable difference as to whether a marine gets bitten since a SMALL target is attacking a LARGE target.
However, marines jumping while being attacked usually 'screws up' the game just enough to make attacks from ANY alien miss more often then they should. How often do you see marines that hop around in front of an Onos live longer than those who don't hop? Here we have an onos with a huge and deadly weapon and yet the bouncey marine delays a kill.
Bottom line is I'm still not 100% happy with the way that hits don't connect when marines jump around. Not only is it inconsistent, it generally degrades the game atmosphere to a significant extent and just plain noobifies the game.
I couldn't agree more on jumping, it just feels stupid for Marines. And it wouldn't upset balance by any significant degree to fix that, but improve the fun in NS by a whole lot.
<!--QuoteBegin-MMZ>Torak+Apr 8 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Apr 8 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> At least they added the "huge knockback" to the bug database... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I reported it! You can touch me for 1$ <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i think the skulks do go down to quick and having the aliens get a free upgrade just for having another hive go up would be good. Now the reason making it so that rines had to move in groups, to fight real strong individual aliens didnt work was because the aliens would use teamwork too causing it to be a group of skulks vs a group of rines, so they had to give the rines more strength. I think if they took the voice chat and type chatting outta alien team it would cause the aliens to have to work together by site only and wouldnt be able to team up as good as rines putting them back into the undividual warrior role, and rines back to the teamwork class.
This would allow them to make the aliens stronger since they wouldnt be unable to communicate like the rines.
what you think? just a thought
How bout some peeps try it in a pug, do a couple of rounds where the aliens cant use any chat features what so ever.
<!--QuoteBegin-evilTurtle+Apr 8 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (evilTurtle @ Apr 8 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How bout some peeps try it in a pug, do a couple of rounds where the aliens cant use any chat features what so ever.
Turtle <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you plan to do against Ventrilo or Teamspeak - 3rd party voice chat progams?
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Apr 5 2004, 03:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Apr 5 2004, 03:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> LMG takes about .9 seconds to kill a skulk
Bite has about .75 ROF (a little more or less), and first bite is instant, and it takes .9 seconds to kill the skulk if you have an aimbot!
So not only is it physically impossible to just kill the skulk before he kills you in the event of an ambush, but lets say we aren't playing with perfect players; skulk STILL has the bigger advantage overall. A poor player probably will never even see what kills him, and a good player may get off a shot or two. As marines get upgrades, skulks lose the close quarters domination they have, and the second hive is really needed to make them effective again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the LMG has a ROF of 15 shots/sec, so 9 shots takes only 0.6 seconds to fire. Quite possible to kill a skulk even if he does manage to get that perfect ambush in.
Also, getting armor lvl 1 is something the marines can have 2 minutes into the game - IP-armory-armslab-armor1 works quite nicely, and once marines have lvl 1 armor, they have about 1.5 seconds to kill a skulk that executes a perfect ambush... plenty of time. Not to mention that lvl 2 armor now requires 4 bites, leaving that marines with 2.25 seconds to kill you ... and of course, with bite knockback, it's usually hard to get in that many bites in a row.
And you hardly need an aimbot to hit. True, a skulk facing you is a smaller target than it used to be, but the difference is only in height ... and you can't dodge up/down all _that_ much. A skulk can usually only dodge right/left, so the the hard thing in killing a skulk is to get the left/right aim right... and there, the size of the hitbox is just as large as in 2.x. Actually, the hitbox is usually slightly larger in the horizontal direction because as soon as the skulk isn't facing _directly_ towards the marines, the elongated hitbox shows a much bigger side than the old, square vertical hitbox did.
No matter. What I find disturbing is that the game plays with the aliens valiantly trying to advance into the map far enough to protecte a few RT's, then defending them while a few res hoarders gets fades as early as possible. It used to be that getting a Fade before the 2nd hive was built was a bad strategy, but with skulks and gorges as weak as they are now, it's usually better to have a fade or two early than a second hive.
Personally, I'd like slightly stronger skulks and slightly weaker fades, to avoid that incredible power difference.
the good thing about not being a dev or a cal rep (or any other league rep)is that i just think of ideas and hope that these others can find away to make it work if they like the ideas. In pubs 3rd party voice wuoldnt really matter your not going to have alot of pubbers on a server that know each other in a third party voice chat. The leagues and clans is the thing to worry about.
Now in a perfect world you could believe a clans word when they say they arent going to use the 3rd party voice. But this isnt a perfect world and there would be no way (that i can think of) to monitor if peeps are using them.
Bite has about .75 ROF (a little more or less), and first bite is instant, and it takes .9 seconds to kill the skulk if you have an aimbot!
So not only is it physically impossible to just kill the skulk before he kills you in the event of an ambush, but lets say we aren't playing with perfect players; skulk STILL has the bigger advantage overall. A poor player probably will never even see what kills him, and a good player may get off a shot or two. As marines get upgrades, skulks lose the close quarters domination they have, and the second hive is really needed to make them effective again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the LMG has a ROF of 15 shots/sec, so 9 shots takes only 0.6 seconds to fire. Quite possible to kill a skulk even if he does manage to get that perfect ambush in.
Also, getting armor lvl 1 is something the marines can have 2 minutes into the game - IP-armory-armslab-armor1 works quite nicely, and once marines have lvl 1 armor, they have about 1.5 seconds to kill a skulk that executes a perfect ambush... plenty of time. Not to mention that lvl 2 armor now requires 4 bites, leaving that marines with 2.25 seconds to kill you ... and of course, with bite knockback, it's usually hard to get in that many bites in a row.
And you hardly need an aimbot to hit. True, a skulk facing you is a smaller target than it used to be, but the difference is only in height ... and you can't dodge up/down all _that_ much. A skulk can usually only dodge right/left, so the the hard thing in killing a skulk is to get the left/right aim right... and there, the size of the hitbox is just as large as in 2.x. Actually, the hitbox is usually slightly larger in the horizontal direction because as soon as the skulk isn't facing _directly_ towards the marines, the elongated hitbox shows a much bigger side than the old, square vertical hitbox did.
No matter. What I find disturbing is that the game plays with the aliens valiantly trying to advance into the map far enough to protecte a few RT's, then defending them while a few res hoarders gets fades as early as possible. It used to be that getting a Fade before the 2nd hive was built was a bad strategy, but with skulks and gorges as weak as they are now, it's usually better to have a fade or two early than a second hive.
Personally, I'd like slightly stronger skulks and slightly weaker fades, to avoid that incredible power difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> had you kept reading, you would know that the numbers I orginally used were incorrect and the correct ones are as follows:
- .42 seconds per bite
- .067 per bullet, again, for a total of .603 secs to kill a skulk in 9 perfect shots
Perhaps not a HP boost... or a RFK change... how about BITE ANGLE.
I addressed this in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67341' target='_blank'>This</a> thread. The onos should have a striaght long attack it has now because it attacks with a long narrow horn, however the skulk/lerk/fade should have a much WIDER attack. Skulk's teeth are all around the screen, yet you can only bite if your within bite range if you place your invisable cursor over the marine. I feel this is wrong and suggested several times to increase the skulk/lerks bite's and fade's swipe WIDTH (Note not range). Of course the same crack bunny hoppers came in with their flames and it was largely ignored.
I for one feel that once the skulk gets within bite range the fight should be 99% over with... however the opposite is quite true, marines still have a good chance of killing skulks up close and personal. (especially when it takes 6+ bites to kill a marine with armor 2 and a little med support)
<!--QuoteBegin-coris+Apr 8 2004, 09:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ Apr 8 2004, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I reported it! You can touch me for 1$ <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry man, you'd have to pay me a heck of a lot more than $1 to touch you.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Perhaps reduce the sound the skulks make as they walk, thus increasing the chance of a sneak attack, increase this noise reduction with the number of hives, and replace silence with a new ability. Just throwing a suggestion out there. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gold Leader+Apr 8 2004, 03:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gold Leader @ Apr 8 2004, 03:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-evilTurtle+Apr 8 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (evilTurtle @ Apr 8 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How bout some peeps try it in a pug, do a couple of rounds where the aliens cant use any chat features what so ever.
Turtle <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What do you plan to do against Ventrilo or Teamspeak - 3rd party voice chat progams? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More importantly, what would you do about (Gasp, horror) the missing fun ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I agree with Trev. I cannot count the number of times I've been in melee range and attacked a marine only to do no damage whatsoever. THERE IS <b>NO</b> REASON a melee based attack should ever miss in melee range as long as the attacker is facing the enemy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Guile+Apr 8 2004, 09:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Guile @ Apr 8 2004, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Perhaps reduce the sound the skulks make as they walk, thus increasing the chance of a sneak attack, increase this noise reduction with the number of hives, and replace silence with a new ability. Just throwing a suggestion out there. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This translates directly into, "Perhaps make everyone turn up their volume settings so they can hear the quieter skulks."
Whenever you attempt to balance a game by making it more likely that a player will "screw up" (IE: Get ambushed by a skulk because he didn't hear it) you A)Fail miserably because of things like turning up the gamma to see cloaked skulks, and B)Widen the gap between casual players and obsessive players.
Fix bites not registering. I saw the worst example of this today in a pug where I bhopped into cargo hive on veil and on my screen I literally followed the marine from the res node all the way to under the hive, constantly biting him. To me it looked like I hit him about 8 times... but I'm pretty sure the server only registered one or two. It's gotta be the most frustrating thing ever.
Let skulks jump off walls and increase their base speed to like 310. Then if they need a little more, give them 5 extra armor or something.
Edit: I also really really like the idea of some sort of cheapened upgrade system where you keep your upgrades after you die or they cost 0-1 res for skulk (and hopefully are a lot faster, 5 seconds per upgrade is a long time).
2nd Edit: Can you even turn up your gamma to see cloaked skulks? I'm pretty sure this is just an urban myth.
Cloaking that hides object perfectly is not possible to spot, i think that SC currently cloak imperfectly and personal cloak is 100%, so that you cannot spot person cloaked by personal cloak upgrade no matter how high gamma you have..
Biting with whole width of screen is not wise, it would be way too easy for skulks then.. But bite could use some fixing, i know that if I jump on marine and "stuck" on him above ground and bite, it has high chance of ot being registered.
And yes, only alien I currently fear is Fade.. Nothing else can gain my respect..
gorges.. funny fatties that can never escape you skulks .. cute doggies, sure they can kill you, but you can get 4/1 or better kill ratio on them onos ... big slow easy to stuck, easy to kill once they need to escape
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cloaking that hides object perfectly is not possible to spot, i think that SC currently cloak imperfectly and personal cloak is 100%, so that you cannot spot person cloaked by personal cloak upgrade no matter how high gamma you have.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my experience it seems like SC does not cloak 100% because players move. Even a player cloaked by personal cloaking upgrade is not invisible when he is moving. But not-moving players are 100% invisible as long as they don't stand in front of a light source.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just wanna see more "fear" from skulks. Atmosphere in NS is everything for me, I wanna fear the skulk like I did in 1.04 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
eg. Silence/cloaking skulks are scary but you hardly (never?) see this combination of upgrades because 1) movement and sensory chamber are never placed before the game is already over (at least sensory is never ever placed before it's already over) 2) marines will easily hold their territory and finish the aliens off before they can cause much damage.
Another problem with skulks is their number. In 1.04 only one or two players were gorges and the rest played skulk. That way there were many skulks in the field. Now marines have advantage in numbers (they have always just one "gorge"), more fire power, range advantage, can move more freely across the map, more weapons/upgrades, better static defenses and so on. The game changed from aliens controlling the map and attacking the marines to aliens defending.
HellbillyA whole title out of pity...Join Date: 2002-11-02Member: 3931Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-e.Nadagast+Apr 13 2004, 10:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Apr 13 2004, 10:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fix bites not registering. I saw the worst example of this today in a pug where I bhopped into cargo hive on veil and on my screen I literally followed the marine from the res node all the way to under the hive, constantly biting him. To me it looked like I hit him about 8 times... but I'm pretty sure the server only registered one or two. It's gotta be the most frustrating thing ever.
Let skulks jump off walls and increase their base speed to like 310. Then if they need a little more, give them 5 extra armor or something.
Edit: I also really really like the idea of some sort of cheapened upgrade system where you keep your upgrades after you die or they cost 0-1 res for skulk (and hopefully are a lot faster, 5 seconds per upgrade is a long time).
2nd Edit: Can you even turn up your gamma to see cloaked skulks? I'm pretty sure this is just an urban myth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh man how i feel your pain <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I get that alot these days. Even when i sneak up on a marine, get 3-4 bites on him and then maybe 1-2 bites when he jumps around, but he won't fall......most annoying thing ever. I cant seem to get those damn bites to register. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It might have to do with me not compensating for the pushback effect, but still....
I completely agree that skulks need a boost. They took a hit to HP/Armor during the private beta when Flayra fixed the skulks hitboxes (smaller hitboxes) and to compensate dropped their HP/Armor. I never understood that since good shots will hit their target anyway...
What was the previous values? 75/20? It should go back the way it was before the HP/Armor drop.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
ZERK, I partizipated this "private beta" like you called it and I have to disagree you.
This change was really necessary to balance the game. So the current armor is ok. But we should increase the skulk health to 80.
Why? Because Regeneration or Hive healing is pretty useless for skulks now. And, we dont need carapace anymore, so we could prevent DC - MC - SC symptom.
80 / 10... that would be a nice skulk. An alien player could act more intuitive trusting their HitPoint count without calculating your body armor.
0 res upgrades could easilly solve all the problems with skulk.. Imagine that your skulk always has 1 upgrade.. like carapace, silence, or cloaking.. now this skulk is powerfull enough to compete..
Comments
#1) 2.01 Skulk
#2) 3.0b3 Skulk
#3) 1.04 Skulk
And about the hitboxes, I have never experienced any problem with them until now in 3.0. Yknow that "sparks" bug.
Let's be honest here. When most people play skulk, they usually aim UP from the ground when they bite. (they don't bite at a person's feet, they aim for the midsection) Now since bunny-hopping (as people know it) was removed, marines are limited in how far they can hop away. (even though this can still be exploited with knockback, but I won't get into that since it annoys me to no end.)
Anyway, if you are aiming for a marine's belt and that marine jumps, should that make ANY difference in whether you will land another hit?
No.
If the marine is on the ground or 1-2 feet off the ground the bite is still aimed at the marine body by nature of where it was first pointed and the fact that the marine is significantly bigger than the skulk.
Jumping while being attcked should NOT make a measurable difference as to whether a marine gets bitten since a SMALL target is attacking a LARGE target.
However, marines jumping while being attacked usually 'screws up' the game just enough to make attacks from ANY alien miss more often then they should. How often do you see marines that hop around in front of an Onos live longer than those who don't hop? Here we have an onos with a huge and deadly weapon and yet the bouncey marine delays a kill.
Bottom line is I'm still not 100% happy with the way that hits don't connect when marines jump around. Not only is it inconsistent, it generally degrades the game atmosphere to a significant extent and just plain noobifies the game.
Regards,
Savant
I reported it! You can touch me for 1$ <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This would allow them to make the aliens stronger since they wouldnt be unable to communicate like the rines.
what you think?
just a thought
How bout some peeps try it in a pug, do a couple of rounds where the aliens cant use any chat features what so ever.
Turtle
Turtle <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you plan to do against Ventrilo or Teamspeak - 3rd party voice chat progams?
LMG takes about .9 seconds to kill a skulk
Bite has about .75 ROF (a little more or less), and first bite is instant, and it takes .9 seconds to kill the skulk if you have an aimbot!
So not only is it physically impossible to just kill the skulk before he kills you in the event of an ambush, but lets say we aren't playing with perfect players; skulk STILL has the bigger advantage overall. A poor player probably will never even see what kills him, and a good player may get off a shot or two. As marines get upgrades, skulks lose the close quarters domination they have, and the second hive is really needed to make them effective again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the LMG has a ROF of 15 shots/sec, so 9 shots takes only 0.6 seconds to fire. Quite possible to kill a skulk even if he does manage to get that perfect ambush in.
Also, getting armor lvl 1 is something the marines can have 2 minutes into the game - IP-armory-armslab-armor1 works quite nicely, and once marines have lvl 1 armor, they have about 1.5 seconds to kill a skulk that executes a perfect ambush... plenty of time. Not to mention that lvl 2 armor now requires 4 bites, leaving that marines with 2.25 seconds to kill you ... and of course, with bite knockback, it's usually hard to get in that many bites in a row.
And you hardly need an aimbot to hit. True, a skulk facing you is a smaller target than it used to be, but the difference is only in height ... and you can't dodge up/down all _that_ much. A skulk can usually only dodge right/left, so the the hard thing in killing a skulk is to get the left/right aim right... and there, the size of the hitbox is just as large as in 2.x. Actually, the hitbox is usually slightly larger in the horizontal direction because as soon as the skulk isn't facing _directly_ towards the marines, the elongated hitbox shows a much bigger side than the old, square vertical hitbox did.
No matter. What I find disturbing is that the game plays with the aliens valiantly trying to advance into the map far enough to protecte a few RT's, then defending them while a few res hoarders gets fades as early as possible. It used to be that getting a Fade before the 2nd hive was built was a bad strategy, but with skulks and gorges as weak as they are now, it's usually better to have a fade or two early than a second hive.
Personally, I'd like slightly stronger skulks and slightly weaker fades, to avoid that incredible power difference.
Now in a perfect world you could believe a clans word when they say they arent going to use the 3rd party voice. But this isnt a perfect world and there would be no way (that i can think of) to monitor if peeps are using them.
What would you do??
Turtle
LMG takes about .9 seconds to kill a skulk
Bite has about .75 ROF (a little more or less), and first bite is instant, and it takes .9 seconds to kill the skulk if you have an aimbot!
So not only is it physically impossible to just kill the skulk before he kills you in the event of an ambush, but lets say we aren't playing with perfect players; skulk STILL has the bigger advantage overall. A poor player probably will never even see what kills him, and a good player may get off a shot or two. As marines get upgrades, skulks lose the close quarters domination they have, and the second hive is really needed to make them effective again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, the LMG has a ROF of 15 shots/sec, so 9 shots takes only 0.6 seconds to fire. Quite possible to kill a skulk even if he does manage to get that perfect ambush in.
Also, getting armor lvl 1 is something the marines can have 2 minutes into the game - IP-armory-armslab-armor1 works quite nicely, and once marines have lvl 1 armor, they have about 1.5 seconds to kill a skulk that executes a perfect ambush... plenty of time. Not to mention that lvl 2 armor now requires 4 bites, leaving that marines with 2.25 seconds to kill you ... and of course, with bite knockback, it's usually hard to get in that many bites in a row.
And you hardly need an aimbot to hit. True, a skulk facing you is a smaller target than it used to be, but the difference is only in height ... and you can't dodge up/down all _that_ much. A skulk can usually only dodge right/left, so the the hard thing in killing a skulk is to get the left/right aim right... and there, the size of the hitbox is just as large as in 2.x. Actually, the hitbox is usually slightly larger in the horizontal direction because as soon as the skulk isn't facing _directly_ towards the marines, the elongated hitbox shows a much bigger side than the old, square vertical hitbox did.
No matter. What I find disturbing is that the game plays with the aliens valiantly trying to advance into the map far enough to protecte a few RT's, then defending them while a few res hoarders gets fades as early as possible. It used to be that getting a Fade before the 2nd hive was built was a bad strategy, but with skulks and gorges as weak as they are now, it's usually better to have a fade or two early than a second hive.
Personally, I'd like slightly stronger skulks and slightly weaker fades, to avoid that incredible power difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
had you kept reading, you would know that the numbers I orginally used were incorrect and the correct ones are as follows:
- .42 seconds per bite
- .067 per bullet, again, for a total of .603 secs to kill a skulk in 9 perfect shots
I addressed this in <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67341' target='_blank'>This</a> thread. The onos should have a striaght long attack it has now because it attacks with a long narrow horn, however the skulk/lerk/fade should have a much WIDER attack. Skulk's teeth are all around the screen, yet you can only bite if your within bite range if you place your invisable cursor over the marine. I feel this is wrong and suggested several times to increase the skulk/lerks bite's and fade's swipe WIDTH (Note not range). Of course the same crack bunny hoppers came in with their flames and it was largely ignored.
I for one feel that once the skulk gets within bite range the fight should be 99% over with... however the opposite is quite true, marines still have a good chance of killing skulks up close and personal. (especially when it takes 6+ bites to kill a marine with armor 2 and a little med support)
More recent testing arrived at a lower value, approximately .058.
Sorry man, you'd have to pay me a heck of a lot more than $1 to touch you.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
More recent testing arrived at a lower value, approximately .058. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks i will remember this
Turtle <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you plan to do against Ventrilo or Teamspeak - 3rd party voice chat progams? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
More importantly, what would you do about (Gasp, horror) the missing fun ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This translates directly into, "Perhaps make everyone turn up their volume settings so they can hear the quieter skulks."
Whenever you attempt to balance a game by making it more likely that a player will "screw up" (IE: Get ambushed by a skulk because he didn't hear it) you A)Fail miserably because of things like turning up the gamma to see cloaked skulks, and B)Widen the gap between casual players and obsessive players.
Let skulks jump off walls and increase their base speed to like 310. Then if they need a little more, give them 5 extra armor or something.
Edit: I also really really like the idea of some sort of cheapened upgrade system where you keep your upgrades after you die or they cost 0-1 res for skulk (and hopefully are a lot faster, 5 seconds per upgrade is a long time).
2nd Edit: Can you even turn up your gamma to see cloaked skulks? I'm pretty sure this is just an urban myth.
Biting with whole width of screen is not wise, it would be way too easy for skulks then..
But bite could use some fixing, i know that if I jump on marine and "stuck" on him above ground and bite, it has high chance of ot being registered.
gorges.. funny fatties that can never escape you
skulks .. cute doggies, sure they can kill you, but you can get 4/1 or better kill ratio on them
onos ... big slow easy to stuck, easy to kill once they need to escape
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In my experience it seems like SC does not cloak 100% because players move. Even a player cloaked by personal cloaking upgrade is not invisible when he is moving. But not-moving players are 100% invisible as long as they don't stand in front of a light source.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just wanna see more "fear" from skulks. Atmosphere in NS is everything for me, I wanna fear the skulk like I did in 1.04 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
eg. Silence/cloaking skulks are scary but you hardly (never?) see this combination of upgrades because 1) movement and sensory chamber are never placed before the game is already over (at least sensory is never ever placed before it's already over) 2) marines will easily hold their territory and finish the aliens off before they can cause much damage.
Another problem with skulks is their number. In 1.04 only one or two players were gorges and the rest played skulk. That way there were many skulks in the field. Now marines have advantage in numbers (they have always just one "gorge"), more fire power, range advantage, can move more freely across the map, more weapons/upgrades, better static defenses and so on. The game changed from aliens controlling the map and attacking the marines to aliens defending.
Let skulks jump off walls and increase their base speed to like 310. Then if they need a little more, give them 5 extra armor or something.
Edit: I also really really like the idea of some sort of cheapened upgrade system where you keep your upgrades after you die or they cost 0-1 res for skulk (and hopefully are a lot faster, 5 seconds per upgrade is a long time).
2nd Edit: Can you even turn up your gamma to see cloaked skulks? I'm pretty sure this is just an urban myth. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh man how i feel your pain <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I get that alot these days. Even when i sneak up on a marine, get 3-4 bites on him and then maybe 1-2 bites when he jumps around, but he won't fall......most annoying thing ever. I cant seem to get those damn bites to register. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It might have to do with me not compensating for the pushback effect, but still....
What was the previous values? 75/20? It should go back the way it was before the HP/Armor drop.
This change was really necessary to balance the game. So the current armor is ok. But we should increase the skulk health to 80.
Why? Because Regeneration or Hive healing is pretty useless for skulks now. And, we dont need carapace anymore, so we could prevent DC - MC - SC symptom.
80 / 10... that would be a nice skulk. An alien player could act more intuitive trusting their HitPoint count without calculating your body armor.
Imagine that your skulk always has 1 upgrade.. like carapace, silence, or cloaking.. now this skulk is powerfull enough to compete..