<!--QuoteBegin-Hybridclaw+Mar 25 2004, 07:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hybridclaw @ Mar 25 2004, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Fr05t+Mar 25 2004, 06:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fr05t @ Mar 25 2004, 06:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But if the Kharaa eliminate the human pressence, and the hive minds want to assimilate a human, wouldn't they just leave one alive, drag it back to the hive, pop off all it's armor and start the process of destroying their nanos and absorbing them? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fade is a creature that could have developed aposible thumbs and walks on it's hind legs. It could have eventually develop very similar to humans, if it wasn't turned into a kharaa. I think that the hive mind does not need to assimilate humans because it already has something similar to us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The hive evolves different beings to suit it's needs. The RT used to be a creature, along with the one attached to the fade. When they first encountered humans, they weren't well armed or organized. The TSA came along, well organized, armed and posses superior weapons and equipment than the civilians. The Kharaa may be winning some of the battles, but they are losing massive amounts of aliens to these superior marines. Not to mention that these are just dropships with troops trying to clear it out. Imagine what the hive mind would do if it found out that there are millions if not BILLIONS of TSA marines, ready to anihalate them. It would start developing new ways of fighting them.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fr05t+Mar 25 2004, 08:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fr05t @ Mar 25 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Imagine what the hive mind would do if it found out that there are millions if not BILLIONS of TSA marines, ready to anihalate them. It would start developing new ways of fighting them. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> the hive mind knows that marines rely a lot on their eyes so they made sensory chambers. it figured out that marines rely on hearing so it created the silence upgrade. The aliens were able to develop immunity to "nano-penicillin" after encountering it only once. UMbra to block bullets. Ect. they have already created many ways of fighting back.
To take down millions of marines i would imagine that they create some kind of biological weapon, such as some kind of contagious virus, to kill them. Or a gas that would neutralize gunpowder causeing most of the marine weapons to become useless. if the hive mind could create something like this the marines don't stand a chance.
Personally, i think that since the kharaa evolve so rapidly, they should already have weapons like this.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
As you mentioned Hybrid Claw, the Kharra only adapt to things as they happen, they don't premptively adapt to them. So for the Kharra to evolve some sort of massive biological weapon to wipe out hundreds, if not thousands of marines at once, they would have to first encounter marines in these numbers and a part of the bacterium would have to survive to evolve this weapon.
As a side note, there is no hive mind as such, the Kharra are all capable of independant thought, all the bacterium does is enhance their existing senses and abilities and give the a 6th sense of sorts (hive sight).
I like the idea that the Kharaa are biological, a mobile ecosystem force-evolved by the bacterial distributed intelligence that provides hivesight and healing. Doesn't the old TSA Handbook cover a lot of this? I'll go look.
Read "Vitals" by Greg Bear; a major sub-plot revolves around how clever bacteria can be.
The kharaa react to the nano-grid's countermeasures as though against competing kharaa bacterium, and against TSA marines as though against bacterium-spawned host creatures; the hostility originates with the nano-grids initial attempts to destroy the bacterium; initial build-up occurs because the kharaa are so different to any system known by humans. There are other references to the evolution of the kharaa.
Personally I like the idea of the kharaa being a "natural" system of comparable ability to the "unnatural" human systems: thus the contest between humans and kharaa is between an organism that adapts itself to the environment, creating an ecosystem out of almost nothing Vs an organism that alters its environment to suit itself, creating sterility out of ecosystems.
And of course, I have to note that machines are in fact (like organisms) never, ever perfectly efficient, have far narrower tolerances, and are much less adaptable than natural systems. Humans can survive on hideously unbalanced diets with all sorts of interference with ideal function. Try heaping the same level of abuse on a machine and see how long it lasts.
<!--QuoteBegin-@nthony+Mar 22 2004, 03:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (@nthony @ Mar 22 2004, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hybrid, read my post again... take note that the name of the map is ns_origin... ORIGIN, as in the "origins" of the kharaa. It's pretty obvious: ns_origin is the facility/base where the kharaa "originated'/were created. And in all likely hood "biodome" would be the only logical place where-in they were created. The mapper is practically spelling it out for you. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> only on the second page out of five, so if it has been answered... Meh.
Go to Steam>steamapps>nsp>maps>ns_origin.txt
Give the story behind the maps. The Kharaa were not created on that planet.
I like this theory. It answers the nagging question of "Why is it that the same resources that make the commander give me a bigger gun also produce hulking cow-like beasts?"
It also explains how the aliens can drop structures at the same rate of the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkHand69+Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkHand69 @ Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And to @nthony, aren't living things just highly advanced multi-unit nano machines anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, I'm going back to my original arguement because it just makes the most logical sence: Biological entities are, will, and always will be NON-mechanical. Why? As I previously posted, nature, by default, has inherent errors, inefficiencies, and general imperfections, whereas anything mechanical strives more 100% effeciency due to its flawless AI. Because of their digitized/binary design thought processes will always be quick, effecient, and precise. There is no "maybe" with machines, they are never indecisive, where as humans are. Kharaa can not fit this nano-machine category because they have too many imperfections as I stated previously. Extra lumps and bumps, insanely long claws, imperfections are everywhere, as they should be in any biological lifeform. So to answer your question, the fundamental difference lies in the smallest biological unit: the CELL. A nano-cell is perfectly designed and thus replicates perfectly, whereas a biological cell has an non-effecient shape, unused space, and replicates thus. Now you may say "but maybe the nanides went wrong and produced a biological form".. not likely, even if a nanide was corrupted/cancerous it may reproduce in an unwanted manor, but will still be "mechanica" to the core, thus anything it "morphed" into, corrupted as it may be, will still none-the-less be "mechanica". Think of it as a cancerous cell, yes the cell is cancerous, and yes it reproduces wantonly, but no matter how cancerous it is, the cell will not just morph into some other lifeform, it is forced to reproduce itself as another biological cell. Thus saying that a nano-cell went awire and reproduced itself into a biological-type cell, creating a biological entity from mechanical cells is just as absurd as saying a cancerous cell in a cancer patient went awire and reproduced itself into a mechanical cell, turning the patient into a semi-robot!!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-Mouse+Mar 26 2004, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Mar 26 2004, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a side note, there is no hive mind as such, the Kharra are all capable of independant thought, all the bacterium does is enhance their existing senses and abilities and give the a 6th sense of sorts (hive sight).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All of these bacteria are in contact with one another, sharing data on their environment, and triggering responses to stimuli (like energy sources, or danger). They form a network, called the Bacterium.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Taken from <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_bacterium.html' target='_blank'>here</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-@nthony+Mar 26 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (@nthony @ Mar 26 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkHand69+Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkHand69 @ Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And to @nthony, aren't living things just highly advanced multi-unit nano machines anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Everything that he wrote* <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Living things can be considered as machines but with differnt "programming" Machines have parts to do specific tasks, and so do living things (though some of the parts in living things have no use, but they will eventually be gone since they will de-evolve.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no "maybe" with machines, they are never indecisive, where as humans are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Machines are created to carry out the commands that are given to them. Living things have to follow the commands to pump the heart, to breath, ect. They also had the ability to think for them selfs, to have a personality and so on. Machines cannot do this because they do not have to commands to do this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now you may say "but maybe the nanides went wrong and produced a biological form".. not likely, even if a nanide was corrupted/cancerous it may reproduce in an unwanted manor, but will still be "mechanica" to the core, thus anything it "morphed" into, corrupted as it may be, will still none-the-less be "mechanica". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree with you there. (but then again if our technology keeps advancing, that could happen in a few hundred years <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->whereas anything mechanical strives more 100% effeciency due to its flawless AI.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes a machine strives to be 100% efficiant. but it does not have flawless Ai. (if it did i would never have a problem with my computer). MAchines can still makes mistakes. Like how a factory could make deffective merchandise.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin-Hybridclaw+Mar 27 2004, 09:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hybridclaw @ Mar 27 2004, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mouse+Mar 26 2004, 12:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mouse @ Mar 26 2004, 12:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a side note, there is no hive mind as such, the Kharra are all capable of independant thought, all the bacterium does is enhance their existing senses and abilities and give the a 6th sense of sorts (hive sight).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All of these bacteria are in contact with one another, sharing data on their environment, and triggering responses to stimuli (like energy sources, or danger). They form a network, called the Bacterium.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Taken from <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_bacterium.html' target='_blank'>here</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that there is no overruling consciousness that controls or leads the Kharra.
Comments
The fade is a creature that could have developed aposible thumbs and walks on it's hind legs. It could have eventually develop very similar to humans, if it wasn't turned into a kharaa. I think that the hive mind does not need to assimilate humans because it already has something similar to us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hive evolves different beings to suit it's needs. The RT used to be a creature, along with the one attached to the fade. When they first encountered humans, they weren't well armed or organized. The TSA came along, well organized, armed and posses superior weapons and equipment than the civilians. The Kharaa may be winning some of the battles, but they are losing massive amounts of aliens to these superior marines. Not to mention that these are just dropships with troops trying to clear it out. Imagine what the hive mind would do if it found out that there are millions if not BILLIONS of TSA marines, ready to anihalate them. It would start developing new ways of fighting them.
the hive mind knows that marines rely a lot on their eyes so they made sensory chambers. it figured out that marines rely on hearing so it created the silence upgrade. The aliens were able to develop immunity to "nano-penicillin" after encountering it only once. UMbra to block bullets. Ect. they have already created many ways of fighting back.
To take down millions of marines i would imagine that they create some kind of biological weapon, such as some kind of contagious virus, to kill them. Or a gas that would neutralize gunpowder causeing most of the marine weapons to become useless. if the hive mind could create something like this the marines don't stand a chance.
Personally, i think that since the kharaa evolve so rapidly, they should already have weapons like this.
As a side note, there is no hive mind as such, the Kharra are all capable of independant thought, all the bacterium does is enhance their existing senses and abilities and give the a 6th sense of sorts (hive sight).
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/index.html' target='_blank'>TSA MANUAL</a>
Have a look in the Kharaa section.
Read "Vitals" by Greg Bear; a major sub-plot revolves around how clever bacteria can be.
The kharaa react to the nano-grid's countermeasures as though against competing kharaa bacterium, and against TSA marines as though against bacterium-spawned host creatures; the hostility originates with the nano-grids initial attempts to destroy the bacterium; initial build-up occurs because the kharaa are so different to any system known by humans. There are other references to the evolution of the kharaa.
Personally I like the idea of the kharaa being a "natural" system of comparable ability to the "unnatural" human systems: thus the contest between humans and kharaa is between an organism that adapts itself to the environment, creating an ecosystem out of almost nothing Vs an organism that alters its environment to suit itself, creating sterility out of ecosystems.
And of course, I have to note that machines are in fact (like organisms) never, ever perfectly efficient, have far narrower tolerances, and are much less adaptable than natural systems. Humans can survive on hideously unbalanced diets with all sorts of interference with ideal function. Try heaping the same level of abuse on a machine and see how long it lasts.
only on the second page out of five, so if it has been answered... Meh.
Go to Steam>steamapps>nsp>maps>ns_origin.txt
Give the story behind the maps. The Kharaa were not created on that planet.
It also explains how the aliens can drop structures at the same rate of the marines.
And to @nthony, aren't living things just highly advanced multi-unit nano machines anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I'm going back to my original arguement because it just makes the most logical sence: Biological entities are, will, and always will be NON-mechanical. Why? As I previously posted, nature, by default, has inherent errors, inefficiencies, and general imperfections, whereas anything mechanical strives more 100% effeciency due to its flawless AI. Because of their digitized/binary design thought processes will always be quick, effecient, and precise. There is no "maybe" with machines, they are never indecisive, where as humans are. Kharaa can not fit this nano-machine category because they have too many imperfections as I stated previously. Extra lumps and bumps, insanely long claws, imperfections are everywhere, as they should be in any biological lifeform. So to answer your question, the fundamental difference lies in the smallest biological unit: the CELL.
A nano-cell is perfectly designed and thus replicates perfectly, whereas a biological cell has an non-effecient shape, unused space, and replicates thus. Now you may say "but maybe the nanides went wrong and produced a biological form".. not likely, even if a nanide was corrupted/cancerous it may reproduce in an unwanted manor, but will still be "mechanica" to the core, thus anything it "morphed" into, corrupted as it may be, will still none-the-less be "mechanica". Think of it as a cancerous cell, yes the cell is cancerous, and yes it reproduces wantonly, but no matter how cancerous it is, the cell will not just morph into some other lifeform, it is forced to reproduce itself as another biological cell. Thus saying that a nano-cell went awire and reproduced itself into a biological-type cell, creating a biological entity from mechanical cells is just as absurd as saying a cancerous cell in a cancer patient went awire and reproduced itself into a mechanical cell, turning the patient into a semi-robot!!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All of these bacteria are in contact with one another, sharing data on their environment, and triggering responses to stimuli (like energy sources, or danger). They form a network, called the Bacterium.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taken from <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_bacterium.html' target='_blank'>here</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-@nthony+Mar 26 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (@nthony @ Mar 26 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkHand69+Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkHand69 @ Mar 22 2004, 04:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
And to @nthony, aren't living things just highly advanced multi-unit nano machines anyway? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Everything that he wrote*
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Living things can be considered as machines but with differnt "programming" Machines have parts to do specific tasks, and so do living things (though some of the parts in living things have no use, but they will eventually be gone since they will de-evolve.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no "maybe" with machines, they are never indecisive, where as humans are.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Machines are created to carry out the commands that are given to them. Living things have to follow the commands to pump the heart, to breath, ect. They also had the ability to think for them selfs, to have a personality and so on. Machines cannot do this because they do not have to commands to do this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now you may say "but maybe the nanides went wrong and produced a biological form".. not likely, even if a nanide was corrupted/cancerous it may reproduce in an unwanted manor, but will still be "mechanica" to the core, thus anything it "morphed" into, corrupted as it may be, will still none-the-less be "mechanica". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree with you there. (but then again if our technology keeps advancing, that could happen in a few hundred years <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->whereas anything mechanical strives more 100% effeciency due to its flawless AI.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes a machine strives to be 100% efficiant. but it does not have flawless Ai. (if it did i would never have a problem with my computer). MAchines can still makes mistakes. Like how a factory could make deffective merchandise.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All of these bacteria are in contact with one another, sharing data on their environment, and triggering responses to stimuli (like energy sources, or danger). They form a network, called the Bacterium.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Taken from <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_bacterium.html' target='_blank'>here</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that there is no overruling consciousness that controls or leads the Kharra.