Aiming system

ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
sorry if this has been discussed before but what sort of aiming system is this mod going to use. will it be similar to Counter-Strike or to American Army. I'm very looking forward to this mod but i can be put off by the wrong aiming system. i have stopped playing CS after many years because of its aiming system. so will your aiming system use the philosophy that the crosshair CHANGES SIZE when we move or shoot and the bullets are randomized within the circle of the crosshair, or will it use the philosophy that the crosshair or view MOVES AROUND when we move or shoot and the bullets always go through the center of the crosshair and there is no randomization?

this second system i'm talking about makes it so that when you fire, then your crosshair or view is pushed in a certain predictable direction like up-right to simulate recoil. the seemingly random stream of bullets coming out a firing cone becomes a result of the player imperfectly trying to counteract the recoil by pushing his mouse down-left as he fires and is not caused by any randomization function run by the computer. this means the accuracy of the player can be affected by their hand-eye-coordination just like in real life. in the case of player moving while firing, when the player walks or runs then the crosshair or view sways slightly in a sine wave pattern. this system of a moving crosshair or view instead of an enlarging crosshair will still motivate players to burst fire, stand still while firing, and get closer to targets for greater accuracy but it does it in a way which is much more logical, intuitive, and fair, and it means that players use their real-life hand-eye coordination skill instead of what i call dice-rolling.

Comments

  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    last I have heard it is simply cone fire

    no recoil

    I don't think that ducking/jumping/moving change the cones but I am not sure
    and the reason that I know for this is that they aint going for realism
  • MessenjahMessenjah Join Date: 2002-10-04 Member: 1428Members
    yeah, like the half-life singleplayer machine gun I think.
  • MoleculorMoleculor Namer-of-Bob Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 9Members
  • BattousaixBattousaix Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 822Members
    Let´s say that in ns if you are a marine, you MUST stop aliens before they get to you or you are dead =/
    So if they also implement such a recoil system, marines would need powerfull guns, and this thing would also lead to cheats and some other nasty stuff, anyways this was a dev team decision and it looks like the game is really really balanced, so just dont worry and enjoy the ride =)
  • ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
    Battousi the recoil system wouldn't be added, it would replace the randomization firing cone. the bullets would go straight where you aimed them but with each shot your aim would be pushed a little off target in a certain direction like up-right (or always up if you like) so you'd have to move it back yourself. if you looked at someone firing with this system then it would look like the randomization firing cone except that the size of the cone would depend on the players actual real-life hand-eye coordination skill instead of being the same for everybody. and if a gun has a bigger cone then you replace that with bigger recoil instead. this system wouldn't necessarily make the game harder for the marines. it would make it easier in fact for people with good hand-eye coordination, and harder for people with bad hand-eye coordination.
  • Sgt_XSgt_X Join Date: 2002-03-01 Member: 261Members
    Which, if I'm reading your post correctly, is exactly what we don't want. The game play for marines focuses less on skill (though you need some) and more one team work and following the Commander's orders.
      Also as Battousai^^x said, if you can have a 100% or similar chance of hitting a target at least on the first shot then aimbots become more usefull. In the current system an aimbot probably won't get you a kill much faster than medium aiming skill.
  • DOOManiacDOOManiac Worst. Critic. Ever. Join Date: 2002-04-17 Member: 462Members, NS1 Playtester
    Aiming in NS is NOT 'realistic' like in CS, AHL, or DOD. Your accuracy is the same whether you are jumping, ducking, or circle strafing. Its similar to HL's aiming...
  • Res1Res1 Join Date: 2002-08-18 Member: 1187Members
    oi I don't think I would like that kind of aiming system in NS vipr.  Mainly because you will be doing a ton of things at once and then trying to aim like that while everything is going on would take the fun out of it.  Also if that aiming system was done they would have to make the marine bullets far stronger to keep it balanced with the aliens, and like they said aimbots would become much more useful.
  • ThansalThansal The New Scum Join Date: 2002-08-22 Member: 1215Members, Constellation
    I believe that they want a very low learning curve when it comes to actual game play, so that they can implement a high one for tactics and the stuff this mod was designed around

    Also recoil (real recoil) is very hard and not realy worth it to program, unless you are aiming for realism

    recoil leads to these problems:
    aimbots work better, taping, you can fire bursts much faster and more acurate in HL then you can in RL, eh whatever it was a dev decision and one I think they have no intention of changing (personaly I like cone fire any way)
  • ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
    well if NS uses the regular half-life aiming system and the spread is about the same as the machine-gun spread in half-life then i suppose i can live with that. i like it better than CS and DOD systems. i actually hate CS and DOD's aiming systems with a passion and refuse to play them because of that.

    the aimbot should use the randomization cone system because that system is bot code because it tries to simulate how a person firing a machine gun has trouble keeping his aim on something when the bullets push back on the gun, and bot code should not be used on a player when they are controlling the mouse.

    btw the system i'm talking about is easier to learn and understand because it is more logical and intuitive. how many times have you had to tell CS newbies that they have to stand still when firing the AWP or their bullets will probably not go where they aimed. if the mod used the moving instead of enlarging crosshair system i talked about then the crosshair would sway around when the player was moving, then he would know without having to be told that if he wants to make it easier on himself then he should stand still when firing with that gun.

    anyway just remember this thread if you guys decide to change the aim system. please don't make it more like CS or DOD; make it more like American Army or Hunt for Quake3.
  • SimillionSimillion Join Date: 2002-07-07 Member: 892Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->it would make it easier in fact for people with good hand-eye coordination, and harder for people with bad hand-eye coordination. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sounded to me from this statement like you supported CS's system. Anyway, you asserted your position...

    The only advantage I saw to a system like Counterstrike's was that it did feel more realistic, as if holding a real gun. The other plus side to the realism was that battles played out differently than, say, TFC battles. But the fact that so many people took advantage of it to cheat with aimbots, ruined it. In addition, although the style of gameplay was different, I don't think it added any strategy or tactics, or capacity for skill; it just changed fighting styles from the usual TFC style strafe-and-hide, whittle them down kind of thing to a pop out of a corner and blast em away kind of thing...and as we all know, almost every CS game turned out to be the opposite of tactical.
  • NecroNecro &lt;insert non-birthday-related title here&gt; Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1118Members
    cs's "recoil" basically shoots in random directions.

    dod's "recoil" kicks the gun up and shoots in a more realistic direction, (eg. up and a bit left/right like IRL)

    personally dod's recoil without the gun kick would be better for ns, but we'll see in a few weeks!
  • WindelkronWindelkron Join Date: 2002-04-11 Member: 419Members
    I hope that the first shot with the LMG/HMG/pistol will be 100% accurate.  I remember once I was playing HLDM and I was trying to shoot a tripmine (so I could pass), and I must have spent 10 bullets from the MP5 (they all missed) before I got fed up and shot it with the glock.
  • Jeb_RadecJeb_Radec Join Date: 2002-08-09 Member: 1128Members
    ya dod's system is what im hoping for...  but if you think about it, recoil at all would in a sense unbalance the game.  See the aliens dont have any weps like taht all of theres theres no penelty for multiple rapid reuse.  So the marines would be dissadvantaged.  So i would kinda be ok even if there wasnt any recoil system.
  • Trojan_RabbitTrojan_Rabbit Join Date: 2002-06-11 Member: 750Members
    I've read many times in the forums here that NS is not a weapons mod.  When recoil is used in games like DoD or America's Army, I find it perfectly acceptable because they are trying to accurately recreate the accuracy of real weapons.  Since NS really isn't trying to be a realistic war sim, and focuses on teamplay for the marines rather than weapons skill, the cone accuracy is a perfect fit.
  • reevesreeves Join Date: 2002-08-15 Member: 1170Members
    I think that the DOD style recoil wouldnt fit into ns, i mean if you were shooting at a skulk, which is half your size, and while you were shooting at it you had to struggle with your gun to keep it from flying up. you would be dead in seconds. In DOD the enemy was the same size as you, so when your gun went up you had a fair chance of popping him in the head. In ns you have critters half your size and twice as fast. The little skulk would be laughing his butt off while he ate your liver...
  • doctopepadoctopepa Join Date: 2002-01-26 Member: 99Members
    I've been playing the sof 2 demo on lan and internet for some time and i must say, the aiming system is the one thing that gives the game a point. You have to sit down to protect yourself from enemy fire and to be able to hit the enemys head. However, in NS the enemies (aliens) don't have hitpoints, most of them use melee attacks and... move fast.
  • ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
    what i'm trying to say is that randomization firing cones are botcode to simulate bad aim except in the case of shotguns which actually are random in real-life. it is especially botcode when the randomization is increased for when we move. it is very annoying in CS and DOD that newbies that crouch all the time will automatically always beat me when i'm moving, because botcode is largely determining our aim (rather than letting my hand-eye coordination skill determine it) and saying because i'm moving and he's crouching then his aim automatically has to be better than mine (by giving him less randomization) despite the fact that my aim while moving actually might be better than his when staying still even if the view is made to sway more the more we move. i think this is truer to real-life. in real-life a person who is really skilled could have steadier aim while running than someone else who is standing still, but in DOD and CS they simply do not allow this to happen. so how can you call CS and DOD realistic?
  • BattousaixBattousaix Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 822Members
    Anyways, whats the point of this discussion, you are telling us that you want some realistic aiming system but then you come and tell that cs and dod systems suck.....
    Then you tell us that you like cs aiming system.....
    And actually, shotguns ain´t random, you aim in a direction and you shoot and you´ll hit what was in teh way (unless you wanted to hit a bee and miraclously survived the shell storm), ns doesn´t fit for recoils because marines have to concentrate in more important things than recoil when trying to survive in a dark corridor surrounded by evil things that lurk from the vents, and sometimes are even cloacked.......
    I really think that once you play ns and you get pwned by the aliens you´ll understand that theres already a big learning curve and adding recoil would make that curve increase greatly, and unevening the teams....
  • gutterclutchgutterclutch Join Date: 2002-06-30 Member: 850Members
    THis game isn't about realism or firearms, it's about playability, learnability and fun. Drop the gripe about randomisation already
  • ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
    i am having trouble finding where i said i like the CS aiming system. i HATE CS's and DOD's aiming system. it is fine for botcode but that botcode should not run when we can control the aim. i am ok with NS's aiming system. American Army and Hunt for Quake3 have my favourite aiming system. please do not change the aiming system in NS to be like CS's and DOD's because i got so infuriated with their aiming systems that i had to stop playing them.
  • standard1standard1 Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1408Members
    cs and dod recoil adds luck and removes skill.
    the cone spread of the HL mp5 is ok, else the gun would be overpowered at medium/long ranges.
    why do so many people want this "realistic" (which it aint) recoil?
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    Because, as I have said before, People are idiots.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Simple facts:
    1) NS has accuracy cones, which range from the Pistol (dead-accurate even at long range) to the LMG (average accuracy) to the HMG (pretty inaccurate at long range, but made up for by high damage and ROF).
    2) There is no recoil or kickback.
    3) This is not going to change in the forseeable future.

    Trust me; the system WORKS.  Marines aren't snipers; their guns are designed for maximum effectiveness against their preferred targets.  Pistol's great for very long or (when you've emptied your primary) very short range.  LMG is good medium to long range, but doesn't pack the punch of the HMG. HMG is scattered at long range - it makes it less effective against the smaller (weaker) alien, while still effective against a large target such as a Fade, Onos, or structure.  Etc.  Drop it.
  • styx2521styx2521 Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8146Members
    ya, i dunno why you came in here to tell them not to change their aiming system. The devs spent a long time making this game and balancing it, and they did a good job. Just cuz you're a noob and can't shoot in cs and dod doesn't mean you need to come in here and **obscenity** about it. good going.
  • ViPrViPr Resident naysayer Join Date: 2002-10-17 Member: 1515Members
    by the way, what i said about the aim system in the Hunt mod for Quake3 doesn't apply anymore because the programmer screwed it in the latest version.

    styx2521, i can't understand what the hell the point of your post is.
  • LitanyLitany Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8043Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--gutterclutch+Oct 19 2002, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (gutterclutch @ Oct 19 2002, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->THis game isn't about realism or firearms, it's about playability, learnability and fun. Drop the gripe about randomisation already<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think gutterclutch has the point here. Randomization and gun recoil isn't the point of NS. It would just make the game harder and it doesn't do anything to make it better.
  • BridgerBridger Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1761Members
    the problem with CS is that it's so random that skill isn't even involved. It's the luck of the draw weather or not your bullets will do 50 dammage and his will only do 20 and your bullets will hit straight and true while his will hit the wall behind him. This is why CS is so popular. People with no skill CAN win this game if they are lucky, whereas in NS the only way to win is WITH skill.
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