I find praising something I have never played quite strange... I called that behaviour blind faith and got flamed even for that.
But observing such prejudices in action is always instructive.
And you developers, look at it this way: What is more satisfying, a praise lemming praising you for the 32nd time, or a critical mind which, after ripping apart your creation, must admit that it is beautiful?
<!--QuoteBegin--CollateralDamage+Oct. 10 2002,16:30--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (CollateralDamage @ Oct. 10 2002,16:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And you developers, look at it this way: What is more satisfying, a praise lemming praising you for the 32nd time, <b>or a critical mind which, after ripping apart your creation, must admit that it is beautiful?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We'll let you know when it happens.
Well, you certainly are a critical mind and you certainly have ripped it apart. Why the hell couldn't you admit it was beautiful before, without assuming you knew everything that was wrong with NS before you even got to play?
Some of us are looking forward to NS and wish to offer <b>constructive</b> criticism, not "This sucks. So does this. This also sucks. MonsE sucks. Everyone who says NS is good sucks. Flayra sucks. Anyone who praises Flayra, MonsieurEvil, Merkaba, KungFuSquirrel, Ken20Banks, BathroomMonkey, Squeal Like A Pig, Relic25, Josh McHugh, Mike Wislocki, Mojo, Def_one, Jeff Paris, [Dr]Hugo, or any other developer/contributor, sucks."
Ripping something apart does NOT put you in favour with the people who made it, especially when you don't have a copy of the game to base your criticism on. To date, you haven't posted a single piece of criticism that you could reliably back up, because <b>you don't have NS</b> and you can't see it for yourself.
I, for one, am looking forward to the game, and I am well aware of the work that's gone into it and how much they've done with the HL engine. I praise them because, by all accounts, they've made the best game ever to be produced from the Half-Life engine, and they busted their butts to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin--Moleculor+Oct. 09 2002,13:11--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Moleculor @ Oct. 09 2002,13:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, I'm absolutely sure that the boards will be swamped with things like:
NS sux! Th1s mod iz buggy! Why t3h #### can't I buy any weapons? Where are t3h l33t hosties?
And such. I'm not going to get too much NS playing done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> methinks that teh CS betichez should and MUST stay on CS, lest they become infected with "Team-play-itus" <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Sure, we'll get some lamers and CS "troll" like behavior, but just think of this:
They're too damn embarassed to say that Natural Selection breaks the mould and that it is possibly the best one out there to date.
and no, i was <i>not</i> sucking up. jeeeez...
o, and if i CS kiddie in this game:
"RTFM j00 n00b! This aint no 1337 team death match game, anymore u f00!"
PS: i say it like that so the CS kiddies can understand it. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> so evil its good...
Back off Goby. He's entitled to his opinions just like everyone else. If he thinks something sux, then why should we flame him when some one (like me) says it's great. Neither of us has played/experienced it yet- however we draw conclusions just like everyone else.
You say to him that he doesn't have any ground to stand on because <b> he doesn't have NS </b> and yet you praise it and call it the best HL game ever. I don't see "playtester" by your name either. That would make you a hypocrite.
So stop yelling at some one with a different opinion than yours.
SuperMunchkin: I base my opinion of NS on what I know about the game, from firsthand accounts of exactly how the gameplay works and what was involved in coding the mod. I talk and listen to playtesters. I ask specific questions. CollateralDamage doesn't seem to care about these things. He makes blanket statements about gameplay and features without having played the game or done any of his research.
I haven't played the game either, but I don't talk about the parts of the game that I don't have information on. I can make a blanket statement saying "NS will be good, and fun to play" because all those little things that I took the time to find out combine to form that statement.
Obviously you haven't witnessed many of his other posts, which amount to basically the second paragraph of my own post. He just thinks NS sucks, without any supporting evidence, besides that he wants to disagree with whatever good things people say about it. Stating your opinion as fact doesn't generally work if it's simply "NS sucks." I am of the opinion that NS will be a fun and revolutionary game, based on what I know about it. I don't appreciate CD's constant bashing of the mod, any more than I would appreciate someone coming up to me after I performed an original piece of music that took months to perfect and saying "That sucked."
i agree with you justin, but i think that what you are saying is somewhat of an exaggeration. i mean, yeah some people suck up a bit but we arent bending over and kissing the ns dev team on the feet. we're just telling them that were still here, waiting for ns and extremely excited about the game. you know...
*nods* I haven't seen anything from him that's simply "this sux" or the like- though I've heard a few people complain about him. However his statement about "praise lemmings" and the rest I happened to agree with.
Some one who doesn't state they're reasons for liking/disliking something doesn't automatically mean they don't have reasons... necessarily. Though if he dislikes it so much I don't see why he sticks around. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo--> So maybe there's something behind his nay-saying that everyone is missing. *shrug*
In any case, I appreciate the civility of your response. Thank you.
i can honestly say that i cant find a single flaw in NS (derff, well i havent played it yet) and i dont mean to be a suck up. i keep a lot of my words to myself but im sure that others think the same, and feel that they should express their thoughts
realityisdeadEmployed by Raven Software after making ns_nothingJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 94Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Merkaba+Oct. 10 2002,09:27--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Merkaba @ Oct. 10 2002,09:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I havn't had time to read this entire thread yet, as I'm currently in class, but here's my two pence:
As an artist, (Like every other dev team member, even MonsE), I personally find it much more satisfying to be respected for what I do rather than be adored.
For one, you can easily respect lots of people and also respect yourself more, than if you 'adore' plenty of mappers, artists, coders, etc, telling each that their work is 'the best thing I've ever seen' or something to that extent. Not only does that devalue your good sentiments, but it also makes you look rather a slut.
Thankfully things aren't *that* bad around here, but it's had its moments, especially in the mapping forum.
Another good thing about respect as opposed to admiration on an extreme level, is that if you are let down by the artist in question, you don't suddenly feel like a fool and feel hurt. Respect is a two way street.
In fact, I think Grand Theft Auto brought forth an interesting phrase which I personally believe is something very near the truth - 'Respect is everything.'<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't agree more. You've put it pefectly.
I can't help but think that the recent Powerhouse thread contributed a lot to the overpraise issue here (or is at least on some people's minds), and has honestly scared me away from posting any pictures in here for a while. I was not expecting the response that I got, and while I can't shove off everyone that apparently liked what was shown (that would be downright rude), the thread only made me feel like an idiot. I mean, an idividual person who posted a compliment there didn't do anything wrong (and I whole-heartedly appreciate his time taken to do this)... but all together it was kind of ridiculous. I couldn't help but imagine my friends or fellow mappers smirk as they read the overglorifying post. If they liked it at first, they didn't now... not if it's being taken like this.
Basically, it made me feel like I was coming off looking like the very kind of person I absolutely despise in amatuer level design. The ones that make their 'groupies' go: "OMFG, it's him! This map looks like crap but who cares!!?!!?! I'll go make love to him in a post!!!!! Maybe he'll be my friend someday?!!??!! OMFG he is GOD!!! *dreamy sigh*"
Yeah. So... that won't be happening any more.
It's not like a person can tell everyone to "Stop complimenting me your tards!!"... but that much praise simply is not needed. No one did anything wrong, but it only had negative effects in the end.
As a result, I won't be posting screenshots to the forums anymore, unless I know an area is lacking and am in need of direct criticism or suggestions. It was nice to know people liked my work... and while some were a bit excessive, no one really did anything wrong there... It just wasn't necessary. It didn't accomplish anything at all, except for make me feel all jerkish inside. And make people who "didn't think I was like that" sneer at me.
Um, yeah.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I had forgotten about the word "praise"(Im not an englishspeaker). If I had remembered it, I would have used it much more than sucking up but it was the best I could think of. Yeah maybe it isn´t very constructive but I had to vent some steam partly because I felt I was treated unfairly in another thread by a whole gang of people. Well, that, and I felt like saying something that maybe many others were thinking but didnt really want to say in case they got a bad response.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect, and agree with the overall jist of your opinions in this post, JC. Though, I can't imagine how this was derived from the "We need more textures" post. I hope you do realize that the vast majority of the replies there (mine included) were stating that creativity comes a long way in texture use, and were not meant as a personal attack towards you. I don't think anyone there thought that you were insulting the developers and demanding that you show more respect. I remember one post saying that the mappers had done a wonderful job... but this wasn't a "stfu noob" type of post. I think all he was saying was that we have proof right here that great things can be done even with a limited supply of resources. Or something like that. He wasn't demanding that you bow down before the developer's feet or anything. ;D
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I had forgotten about the word "praise"(Im not an englishspeaker). If I had remembered it, I would have used it much more than sucking up but it was the best I could think of. Yeah maybe it isn´t very constructive but I had to vent some steam partly because I felt I was treated unfairly in another thread by a whole gang of people. Well, that, and I felt like saying something that maybe many others were thinking but didnt really want to say in case they got a bad response. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To JC: Pretty good original post, made me laugh a bit, because in some ways it is true. I feel your frustration.... To share something with the members here who care, the one time I remember being replied to in a post, it was extremely negative...so, Justin, you're not the only one who feels crummy about this forum sometimes. Don't worry, it's not an emotional scar and I'm not oversensitive...it's just that after I got a general idea of the community's attitude towards me and other people like me (newbies, I guess,) I've learned the best way to act on the board. I usually think twice about making any post (including this one) and I don't look for any replies to my posts. Lurking is better than starting a flame war with someone who's mistreating you. (That's my opinion, anyway.) When NS is released, I hope to see you there.
Ken you should feel happy not jerky....... In the end when you say you like somthing its all wrong and you gotta criticize even a freakin dot....... In the past 5 days i´ve learned a lot..... You can´t be nice to people....
It is very important to understand the difference between criticizing a person and criticizing a work. It is possible to like and respect someone as a person but still disagree heavily with the way he has done a certain thing.
As the majority of forum members are children and teenagers, it is not surprising why people take everything personal here and generate feedback not helpful for an artist.
It is true that nobody "likes" negative feedback and must be hard-pressed to admit that he even listened to it (I am no exception), but without true, honest criticism, there can be no improvement, only stagnation.
And if you think something is 100% perfect, you didn't look close enough. There is no soup without a hair. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
True, honest criticism is never derogatory. It never takes the form "This is bad." It is stated as "This is what could be changed to make your work better (and sometimes, 'this is how you should do it' )." If I had ever had anything to say about the maps, which are the focus of the overpraise issue at this moment, it would have been constructive suggestions as to how such-and-such could be improved or changed. As it is, I can't really comment on mapping due to my lack of knowledge of the field.
The main recipients of praise and criticism on the NS team are <b>not</b> children and teenagers. (How old are you that you can claim to be more mature than the entire community, including the ones in their 20s and 30s? JediYoshi shows more tact and maturity than you and many other people, and he's 11 years old.) Flayra is a professional coder with a degree in programming, and MonsE is an ex-Marine. Hardly immature people, I would think. In the past, they both have taken your criticism as an attack on something you've never seen, rather than a suggestion towards what could make it better.
If you already hate it, don't wait here for the release. You'll probably hate it anyways, whether or not you find it enjoyable, because I don't think you can drop your naysayer act and admit that the finished product is every bit as good as those who made it and played it have said it is. I have great faith that NS will be exactly what the team envisioned, because they won't release it until it is perfect. (or at least, it's perfect as it is, but there's room for version 2).
Think of it like this: If this mod had released during RC1, it would be like Counter-Strike beta 1. If it had released during about RC3, it would be like Tour of Duty v1.0. If they released during RC7, it would be like Firearms 2.5. If they released NOW, it would be like Half-Life 1.0.0.0. If they release once the last crop of 'polish' bugs has been eliminated and the balance has been finetuned, it will be like Half-Life 1.1.1.0.
This isn't a mod. It's a GAME, and the work put into it is mindboggling. Even if I didn't like NS one bit, I'd still admire the professionalism and dedication of the creators.
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Personally, like most people, I'm annoyed when someone posts a one line worship sentence in a thread that has been created by the artist (mapper, writer or otherwise) so that they can get some helpful feedback on their creation.
If you look through all of the posts I've made on these forums, very few of those posts are of me praising someone or their work. That's not because I'm up myself and look down on everyone else, it's because normally when I'm in a position to praise someone or add my opinion to an argument, I find that I don't have anything of worth to say, or if I do, it's already been said by someone else.
I believe that Merkaba did hit the nail on the head when he quoted GTA and said "respect is everything", there are numorous people who I have come to respect because of the way they conduct themselves on these forums.
I'm actually glad this topic appeared, it has allowed me to get another measure of the maturity of some of the people on these forums, I could name names, but I don't want a thread that has managed to stay so civil to be destroyed
I personally praise everything that its better than my own made stuff..... When i looked at the powerhouse pics the only thing i could say was cool, but now i watch the pics and i say, there´s too much detail and the corridors are too narrow.......
Well, I dont post anything related to the gameplay of NS..why? because I havent played it yet..that would be silly. It's bizarre to argue about small gameplay issues in a game you've never even played once.
At best you're guessing..
However I will comment freely on visuals and I genuinely feel that some of the screenies on here are the coolest things I've seen done within the constraints of the ageing HL engine..as a trained artist and someone with 20+ years history of playing computer games I feel qualified to spout an opinion.
Edit: and as a noob mapper I'm starting to find out first-hand just how tight those constraints can be...
If I ever get over the top, well sorry, but I am genuinely impressed by some of the work here..and I assure you I'm the grumpiest, most cynical old sod you will ever meet..I am not easily impressed..
The main recipients of praise and criticism on the NS team are <b>not</b> children and teenagers. (How old are you that you can claim to be more mature than the entire community, including the ones in their 20s and 30s? JediYoshi shows more tact and maturity than you and many other people, and he's 11 years old.) Flayra is a professional coder with a degree in programming, and MonsE is an ex-Marine. Hardly immature people, I would think. In the past, they both have taken your criticism as an attack on something you've never seen, rather than a suggestion towards what could make it better.
etc.. etc..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, the first time I could understand maybe, but a second time no... I'd appreciate it if you'd stop attacking CD. I'm tired of seeing it. I don't know him personally- but you put a helluva lot of words in his mouth.
First off he never said he was the most mature person here- only that there are a lot of teenagers/children here. I'm 19, that's teenager status just as well as 13. From the conversations I've seen in this forum I'm apt to agree with him that MOST (not all) are of that age range. Some of the mappers are in that range and I am willing to bet some of the dev team is too. He didn't attack anyone, or make any outlandish statements- yet half your post is spent yelling at him. Drop it. Please.
As for the thread topic.. Sometimes people don't give a reason for why the like/dislike something. Maybe they can't quite put their finger on it, or maybe they just don't have the ability to realize why they don't like it. No matter what though- it's all in a manner of OPINION. Everything is relative and I urge people not to take critisizm personally. You simply can't please everyone all the time <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
Comments
But observing such prejudices in action is always instructive.
And you developers, look at it this way: What is more satisfying, a praise lemming praising you for the 32nd time, or a critical mind which, after ripping apart your creation, must admit that it is beautiful?
We'll let you know when it happens.
<!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Some of us are looking forward to NS and wish to offer <b>constructive</b> criticism, not "This sucks. So does this. This also sucks. MonsE sucks. Everyone who says NS is good sucks. Flayra sucks. Anyone who praises Flayra, MonsieurEvil, Merkaba, KungFuSquirrel, Ken20Banks, BathroomMonkey, Squeal Like A Pig, Relic25, Josh McHugh, Mike Wislocki, Mojo, Def_one, Jeff Paris, [Dr]Hugo, or any other developer/contributor, sucks."
Ripping something apart does NOT put you in favour with the people who made it, especially when you don't have a copy of the game to base your criticism on. To date, you haven't posted a single piece of criticism that you could reliably back up, because <b>you don't have NS</b> and you can't see it for yourself.
I, for one, am looking forward to the game, and I am well aware of the work that's gone into it and how much they've done with the HL engine. I praise them because, by all accounts, they've made the best game ever to be produced from the Half-Life engine, and they busted their butts to do it.
NS sux!
Th1s mod iz buggy!
Why t3h #### can't I buy any weapons?
Where are t3h l33t hosties?
And such. I'm not going to get too much NS playing done.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
methinks that teh CS betichez should and MUST stay on CS, lest they become infected with "Team-play-itus" <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->
Sure, we'll get some lamers and CS "troll" like behavior, but just think of this:
They're too damn embarassed to say that Natural Selection breaks the mould and that it is possibly the best one out there to date.
and no, i was <i>not</i> sucking up. jeeeez...
o, and if i CS kiddie in this game:
"RTFM j00 n00b! This aint no 1337 team death match game, anymore u f00!"
PS: i say it like that so the CS kiddies can understand it. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> so evil its good...
You say to him that he doesn't have any ground to stand on because <b> he doesn't have NS </b> and yet you praise it and call it the best HL game ever. I don't see "playtester" by your name either. That would make you a hypocrite.
So stop yelling at some one with a different opinion than yours.
I haven't played the game either, but I don't talk about the parts of the game that I don't have information on. I can make a blanket statement saying "NS will be good, and fun to play" because all those little things that I took the time to find out combine to form that statement.
Obviously you haven't witnessed many of his other posts, which amount to basically the second paragraph of my own post. He just thinks NS sucks, without any supporting evidence, besides that he wants to disagree with whatever good things people say about it. Stating your opinion as fact doesn't generally work if it's simply "NS sucks." I am of the opinion that NS will be a fun and revolutionary game, based on what I know about it. I don't appreciate CD's constant bashing of the mod, any more than I would appreciate someone coming up to me after I performed an original piece of music that took months to perfect and saying "That sucked."
Some one who doesn't state they're reasons for liking/disliking something doesn't automatically mean they don't have reasons... necessarily. Though if he dislikes it so much I don't see why he sticks around. <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo--> So maybe there's something behind his nay-saying that everyone is missing. *shrug*
In any case, I appreciate the civility of your response. Thank you.
As an artist, (Like every other dev team member, even MonsE), I personally find it much more satisfying to be respected for what I do rather than be adored.
For one, you can easily respect lots of people and also respect yourself more, than if you 'adore' plenty of mappers, artists, coders, etc, telling each that their work is 'the best thing I've ever seen' or something to that extent. Not only does that devalue your good sentiments, but it also makes you look rather a slut.
Thankfully things aren't *that* bad around here, but it's had its moments, especially in the mapping forum.
Another good thing about respect as opposed to admiration on an extreme level, is that if you are let down by the artist in question, you don't suddenly feel like a fool and feel hurt. Respect is a two way street.
In fact, I think Grand Theft Auto brought forth an interesting phrase which I personally believe is something very near the truth - 'Respect is everything.'<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more. You've put it pefectly.
I can't help but think that the recent Powerhouse thread contributed a lot to the overpraise issue here (or is at least on some people's minds), and has honestly scared me away from posting any pictures in here for a while. I was not expecting the response that I got, and while I can't shove off everyone that apparently liked what was shown (that would be downright rude), the thread only made me feel like an idiot. I mean, an idividual person who posted a compliment there didn't do anything wrong (and I whole-heartedly appreciate his time taken to do this)... but all together it was kind of ridiculous. I couldn't help but imagine my friends or fellow mappers smirk as they read the overglorifying post. If they liked it at first, they didn't now... not if it's being taken like this.
Basically, it made me feel like I was coming off looking like the very kind of person I absolutely despise in amatuer level design. The ones that make their 'groupies' go: "OMFG, it's him! This map looks like crap but who cares!!?!!?! I'll go make love to him in a post!!!!! Maybe he'll be my friend someday?!!??!! OMFG he is GOD!!! *dreamy sigh*"
Yeah. So... that won't be happening any more.
It's not like a person can tell everyone to "Stop complimenting me your tards!!"... but that much praise simply is not needed. No one did anything wrong, but it only had negative effects in the end.
As a result, I won't be posting screenshots to the forums anymore, unless I know an area is lacking and am in need of direct criticism or suggestions. It was nice to know people liked my work... and while some were a bit excessive, no one really did anything wrong there... It just wasn't necessary. It didn't accomplish anything at all, except for make me feel all jerkish inside. And make people who "didn't think I was like that" sneer at me.
Um, yeah.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I had forgotten about the word "praise"(Im not an englishspeaker). If I had remembered it, I would have used it much more than sucking up but it was the best I could think of. Yeah maybe it isn´t very constructive but I had to vent some steam partly because I felt I was treated unfairly in another thread by a whole gang of people.
Well, that, and I felt like saying something that maybe many others were thinking but didnt really want to say in case they got a bad response.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I respect, and agree with the overall jist of your opinions in this post, JC. Though, I can't imagine how this was derived from the "We need more textures" post. I hope you do realize that the vast majority of the replies there (mine included) were stating that creativity comes a long way in texture use, and were not meant as a personal attack towards you. I don't think anyone there thought that you were insulting the developers and demanding that you show more respect. I remember one post saying that the mappers had done a wonderful job... but this wasn't a "stfu noob" type of post. I think all he was saying was that we have proof right here that great things can be done even with a limited supply of resources. Or something like that. He wasn't demanding that you bow down before the developer's feet or anything. ;D
Whatever, though... <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
<!--EDIT|ken20banks|Oct. 12 2002,00:00-->
Well, that, and I felt like saying something that maybe many others were thinking but didnt really want to say in case they got a bad response. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To JC:
Pretty good original post, made me laugh a bit, because in some ways it is true. I feel your frustration.... To share something with the members here who care, the one time I remember being replied to in a post, it was extremely negative...so, Justin, you're not the only one who feels crummy about this forum sometimes. Don't worry, it's not an emotional scar and I'm not oversensitive...it's just that after I got a general idea of the community's attitude towards me and other people like me (newbies, I guess,) I've learned the best way to act on the board. I usually think twice about making any post (including this one) and I don't look for any replies to my posts. Lurking is better than starting a flame war with someone who's mistreating you. (That's my opinion, anyway.) When NS is released, I hope to see you there.
In the end when you say you like somthing its all wrong and you gotta criticize even a freakin dot.......
In the past 5 days i´ve learned a lot..... You can´t be nice to people....
As the majority of forum members are children and teenagers, it is not surprising why people take everything personal here and generate feedback not helpful for an artist.
It is true that nobody "likes" negative feedback and must be hard-pressed to admit that he even listened to it (I am no exception), but without true, honest criticism, there can be no improvement, only stagnation.
And if you think something is 100% perfect, you didn't look close enough. There is no soup without a hair. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
True, honest criticism is never derogatory. It never takes the form "This is bad." It is stated as "This is what could be changed to make your work better (and sometimes, 'this is how you should do it' )." If I had ever had anything to say about the maps, which are the focus of the overpraise issue at this moment, it would have been constructive suggestions as to how such-and-such could be improved or changed. As it is, I can't really comment on mapping due to my lack of knowledge of the field.
The main recipients of praise and criticism on the NS team are <b>not</b> children and teenagers. (How old are you that you can claim to be more mature than the entire community, including the ones in their 20s and 30s? JediYoshi shows more tact and maturity than you and many other people, and he's 11 years old.) Flayra is a professional coder with a degree in programming, and MonsE is an ex-Marine. Hardly immature people, I would think. In the past, they both have taken your criticism as an attack on something you've never seen, rather than a suggestion towards what could make it better.
If you already hate it, don't wait here for the release. You'll probably hate it anyways, whether or not you find it enjoyable, because I don't think you can drop your naysayer act and admit that the finished product is every bit as good as those who made it and played it have said it is. I have great faith that NS will be exactly what the team envisioned, because they won't release it until it is perfect. (or at least, it's perfect as it is, but there's room for version 2).
Think of it like this: If this mod had released during RC1, it would be like Counter-Strike beta 1. If it had released during about RC3, it would be like Tour of Duty v1.0. If they released during RC7, it would be like Firearms 2.5. If they released NOW, it would be like Half-Life 1.0.0.0. If they release once the last crop of 'polish' bugs has been eliminated and the balance has been finetuned, it will be like Half-Life 1.1.1.0.
This isn't a mod. It's a GAME, and the work put into it is mindboggling. Even if I didn't like NS one bit, I'd still admire the professionalism and dedication of the creators.
If you look through all of the posts I've made on these forums, very few of those posts are of me praising someone or their work. That's not because I'm up myself and look down on everyone else, it's because normally when I'm in a position to praise someone or add my opinion to an argument, I find that I don't have anything of worth to say, or if I do, it's already been said by someone else.
I believe that Merkaba did hit the nail on the head when he quoted GTA and said "respect is everything", there are numorous people who I have come to respect because of the way they conduct themselves on these forums.
I'm actually glad this topic appeared, it has allowed me to get another measure of the maturity of some of the people on these forums, I could name names, but I don't want a thread that has managed to stay so civil to be destroyed
At best you're guessing..
However I will comment freely on visuals and I genuinely feel that some of the screenies on here are the coolest things I've seen done within the constraints of the ageing HL engine..as a trained artist and someone with 20+ years history of playing computer games I feel qualified to spout an opinion.
Edit: and as a noob mapper I'm starting to find out first-hand just how tight those constraints can be...
If I ever get over the top, well sorry, but I am genuinely impressed by some of the work here..and I assure you I'm the grumpiest, most cynical old sod you will ever meet..I am not easily impressed..
The main recipients of praise and criticism on the NS team are <b>not</b> children and teenagers. (How old are you that you can claim to be more mature than the entire community, including the ones in their 20s and 30s? JediYoshi shows more tact and maturity than you and many other people, and he's 11 years old.) Flayra is a professional coder with a degree in programming, and MonsE is an ex-Marine. Hardly immature people, I would think. In the past, they both have taken your criticism as an attack on something you've never seen, rather than a suggestion towards what could make it better.
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Ok, the first time I could understand maybe, but a second time no... I'd appreciate it if you'd stop attacking CD. I'm tired of seeing it. I don't know him personally- but you put a helluva lot of words in his mouth.
First off he never said he was the most mature person here- only that there are a lot of teenagers/children here. I'm 19, that's teenager status just as well as 13. From the conversations I've seen in this forum I'm apt to agree with him that MOST (not all) are of that age range. Some of the mappers are in that range and I am willing to bet some of the dev team is too. He didn't attack anyone, or make any outlandish statements- yet half your post is spent yelling at him. Drop it. Please.
As for the thread topic..
Sometimes people don't give a reason for why the like/dislike something. Maybe they can't quite put their finger on it, or maybe they just don't have the ability to realize why they don't like it. No matter what though- it's all in a manner of OPINION. Everything is relative and I urge people not to take critisizm personally. You simply can't please everyone all the time <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->