moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 02:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I dislike the implied commie behavior of Bittorrent, you're feel to link to filefront.com and such all the doo-dar-day. Use at your own risk folks, p2p files are a haven of viruses and worms... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a bit of FUD there Monse. I would expect someone with your work experience to be more professional about the facts behind their recommendations. Bit torrent checks each piece with a SHA1 hash that is then confirmed against the hash generated by the tracker. Assuming you can trust the place hosting the tracker, there is nothing insecure about downloading with Bit torrent.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming you can trust the place hosting the tracker, there is nothing insecure about downloading with Bit torrent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, because you can always trust random near-anonymous tracker posters on the internet right?
You seem to think that healthy caution and skepticism is FUD. I challenge you to tell me how, exactly. Being cautious about internet downloading is how I got to be an experienced professional and not some willy-nilly knucklehead out there (read: 3 million europeans that downloaded and spread the Beagle worm this weekend). There is no such thing as an impenetrable system, and bittorrent simply has not been attacked yet. Unlike kazaa, morpheus, napster, etc...
<!--QuoteBegin--Nil_IQ+Jan 21 2004, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ Jan 21 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A thead got <i>un</i>-locked? Is this a first? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a Santa Claus. And his name, is MonsieurEvil...
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming you can trust the place hosting the tracker, there is nothing insecure about downloading with Bit torrent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's more like trusting the original seeder of the torrent file not the tracker, the tracker just keeps 'track' of who's seeding/leeching.
btw sonic i think you can repost your bt link now.
MonkfishSonic-boom-inducing buttcheeks of terrifying speed!Join Date: 2003-06-03Member: 16972Members
you will love it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited January 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--Silicon+Jan 21 2004, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silicon @ Jan 21 2004, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 02:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Assuming you can trust the place hosting the tracker, there is nothing insecure about downloading with Bit torrent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> it's more like trusting the original seeder of the torrent file not the tracker, the tracker just keeps 'track' of who's seeding/leeching.
btw sonic i think you can repost your bt link now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, that's not true, as I listed before. The tracker gives you a set of SHA1 hashes for every piece of the file, so that it is computationally impossible for someone to replace a piece with something malicious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, because you can always trust random near-anonymous tracker posters on the internet right?
You seem to think that healthy caution and skepticism is FUD. I challenge you to tell me how, exactly. Being cautious about internet downloading is how I got to be an experienced professional and not some willy-nilly knucklehead out there (read: 3 million europeans that downloaded and spread the Beagle worm this weekend). There is no such thing as an impenetrable system, and bittorrent simply has not been attacked yet. Unlike kazaa, morpheus, napster, etc... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes you no more vulnerable then downloading directly from an anonymous link. Obviously its not smart to download and run software from places you don't trust. My point was that there isn't anything about the bit torrent system that is less secure than a direct download, which is what you were implying.
Sorry if I'm getting a little defensive here, but I see bit torrent as a potential solution to most bandwith problems on the net. I would really like it to become a standard piece of software. It has a hard enough time catching on, just because its an extra download, and unduly questioning its security doesn't help.
Quite non-linear, decent physics, looks stunning, fun to play with some lovely action events (some scripted, some not). A.I. needs tweaking however, at the moment it's not bad or good, merely 'competent'. I was hoping to face some extremely intelligent foes, but then again there's still time for them to improve this aspect for release.
Here's a few pics for your delight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I tried to download from AVault and got this message.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Due to high demand your download request has been place in a priority queue. Your download is currently 10120 of 10127 in the queue. Expected wait was 05:34:14. Actual wait has been 00:00:21.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin---]sonic[-+Jan 21 2004, 12:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-]sonic[- @ Jan 21 2004, 12:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah i looked around and they said it was out today! , and yes , that is an awm , BUT ITS GODAM AWESOME <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> accuracy international L96A1!!!!
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--BigMadSteve+Jan 21 2004, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BigMadSteve @ Jan 21 2004, 06:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm downloading at a snail while stuck in superglue's pace. I've always noticed that the amount I upload is at least triple what I download... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you have cable internet access, make sure you have it set as such. Many cable providers start to throttle your bandwidth if you are uploading too much. If it doesn't give you an option, download one of the newer clients.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 04:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, that's not true, as I listed before. The tracker gives you a set of SHA1 hashes for every piece of the file, so that it is computationally impossible for someone to replace a piece with something malicious. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The SHA1 hashes mean nothing if the file that was originally seeded contains a virus, you're just checking SHA1 hashes of an infected file ;p
i tried to play, when it was loading the map or game, it stopped and gave me a critical error after i waited 3 minutes doing nothing [i had to alt tab out to see the message, or even know it was there]
second time, after id exited and started it up again, got to same point, and it froze. couldnt close the program, or force it to close, or alt tab out, or anything. entirely frozen my computer.
Reminds me vaguely of Halo, except without the crappiness. Don't argue with me here on how good Halo is, no one can make me think it's the absolutely awesome game people seem to think it is. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. The reason it makes me think of Halo is the wide open expanse in the beginning and even that little jungle climb.
I have to say if the whole game looks as good as the demo does and brings some gameplay to the table...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry if I'm getting a little defensive here, but I see bit torrent as a potential solution to most bandwith problems on the net. I would really like it to become a standard piece of software. It has a hard enough time catching on, just because its an extra download, and unduly questioning its security doesn't help. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More than a little defensive - you sort of sound like a microsoft press release: "unduly questioning its security doesn't help." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Blindly trusting the security is much worse, and I implied nothing - I stated facts. I didn't say "and you should also check other types of download links", because after all these years of interneting, it's pretty much common knowledge that you should use mainstream sites for best results. P2P is pretty new to a lot of folks, and many still think that the sharing and hugging and loving means it's not packed with maliscious kids ready to screw your PC up for fun.
Calm down, I'll stop questing your precious Bittorrent now, hippies, I know I've hurt your feelings enough suggesting the slightest possibility of its integrity. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
PS: Played through and beat FC twice, using two seperate methods. Stealthy knifing rock throwing guy, and guns-a-blazin' murder death kill guy. Super fun either way.
Plus you can just say screw the mission and plow into their first base with your zodiac. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More than a little defensive - you sort of sound like a microsoft press release: "unduly questioning its security doesn't help." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 09:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More than a little defensive - you sort of sound like a microsoft press release: "unduly questioning its security doesn't help." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> indeed, 'Microsoft' and 'Security' are words that shouldn't be used in the same sentence. EVER.
<!--QuoteBegin--Silicon+Jan 22 2004, 12:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Silicon @ Jan 22 2004, 12:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Jan 21 2004, 09:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jan 21 2004, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Jan 21 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More than a little defensive - you sort of sound like a microsoft press release: "unduly questioning its security doesn't help." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> indeed, 'Microsoft' and 'Security' are words that shouldn't be used in the same sentence. EVER. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not without 'b*llocks' anyway.
Comments
That's a bit of FUD there Monse. I would expect someone with your work experience to be more professional about the facts behind their recommendations. Bit torrent checks each piece with a SHA1 hash that is then confirmed against the hash generated by the tracker. Assuming you can trust the place hosting the tracker, there is nothing insecure about downloading with Bit torrent.
Yes, because you can always trust random near-anonymous tracker posters on the internet right?
You seem to think that healthy caution and skepticism is FUD. I challenge you to tell me how, exactly. Being cautious about internet downloading is how I got to be an experienced professional and not some willy-nilly knucklehead out there (read: 3 million europeans that downloaded and spread the Beagle worm this weekend). There is no such thing as an impenetrable system, and bittorrent simply has not been attacked yet. Unlike kazaa, morpheus, napster, etc...
Now go away or will taunt you a second time...
So its copying the file over, but since I'm typing on IRC, the stupid copy window steals the focus and since I was typing it CANCELS IT...
sdlfjsdflksdjlsldjsdf
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/2/icon7.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
So its copying the file over, but since I'm typing on IRC, the stupid copy window steals the focus and since I was typing it CANCELS IT...
sdlfjsdflksdjlsldjsdf
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/2/icon7.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ouch. That's the breaks, little man.
96% done at my end... come on, chop chop!
There is a Santa Claus. And his name, is MonsieurEvil...
<img src='http://www.badthad.com/xmas/bad_santa.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
it's more like trusting the original seeder of the torrent file not the tracker, the tracker just keeps 'track' of who's seeding/leeching.
btw sonic i think you can repost your bt link now.
Anyways, this looks cool. I might download it later, if, of course, I beat my natural fear of AWMs.
it's more like trusting the original seeder of the torrent file not the tracker, the tracker just keeps 'track' of who's seeding/leeching.
btw sonic i think you can repost your bt link now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that's not true, as I listed before. The tracker gives you a set of SHA1 hashes for every piece of the file, so that it is computationally impossible for someone to replace a piece with something malicious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, because you can always trust random near-anonymous tracker posters on the internet right?
You seem to think that healthy caution and skepticism is FUD. I challenge you to tell me how, exactly. Being cautious about internet downloading is how I got to be an experienced professional and not some willy-nilly knucklehead out there (read: 3 million europeans that downloaded and spread the Beagle worm this weekend). There is no such thing as an impenetrable system, and bittorrent simply has not been attacked yet. Unlike kazaa, morpheus, napster, etc...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It makes you no more vulnerable then downloading directly from an anonymous link. Obviously its not smart to download and run software from places you don't trust. My point was that there isn't anything about the bit torrent system that is less secure than a direct download, which is what you were implying.
Sorry if I'm getting a little defensive here, but I see bit torrent as a potential solution to most bandwith problems on the net. I would really like it to become a standard piece of software. It has a hard enough time catching on, just because its an extra download, and unduly questioning its security doesn't help.
Quite non-linear, decent physics, looks stunning, fun to play with some lovely action events (some scripted, some not). A.I. needs tweaking however, at the moment it's not bad or good, merely 'competent'. I was hoping to face some extremely intelligent foes, but then again there's still time for them to improve this aspect for release.
Here's a few pics for your delight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pic: For you, the war is over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Due to high demand your download request has been place in a priority queue. Your download is currently 10120 of 10127 in the queue. Expected wait was 05:34:14. Actual wait has been 00:00:21.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
accuracy international L96A1!!!!
f*ing counterstrike ;_;
If you have cable internet access, make sure you have it set as such. Many cable providers start to throttle your bandwidth if you are uploading too much. If it doesn't give you an option, download one of the newer clients.
The SHA1 hashes mean nothing if the file that was originally seeded contains a virus, you're just checking SHA1 hashes of an infected file ;p
exactly.
second time, after id exited and started it up again, got to same point, and it froze. couldnt close the program, or force it to close, or alt tab out, or anything. entirely frozen my computer.
so i restarted, and uninstalled it.
Reminds me vaguely of Halo, except without the crappiness. Don't argue with me here on how good Halo is, no one can make me think it's the absolutely awesome game people seem to think it is. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. The reason it makes me think of Halo is the wide open expanse in the beginning and even that little jungle climb.
I have to say if the whole game looks as good as the demo does and brings some gameplay to the table...
This could kick some serious ****.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More than a little defensive - you sort of sound like a microsoft press release: "unduly questioning its security doesn't help." <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Blindly trusting the security is much worse, and I implied nothing - I stated facts. I didn't say "and you should also check other types of download links", because after all these years of interneting, it's pretty much common knowledge that you should use mainstream sites for best results. P2P is pretty new to a lot of folks, and many still think that the sharing and hugging and loving means it's not packed with maliscious kids ready to screw your PC up for fun.
Calm down, I'll stop questing your precious Bittorrent now, hippies, I know I've hurt your feelings enough suggesting the slightest possibility of its integrity. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Plus you can just say screw the mission and plow into their first base with your zodiac. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed, 'Microsoft' and 'Security' are words that shouldn't be used in the same sentence. EVER.
now that was low. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
indeed, 'Microsoft' and 'Security' are words that shouldn't be used in the same sentence. EVER. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not without 'b*llocks' anyway.