<!--QuoteBegin--Aea+Dec 25 2003, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aea @ Dec 25 2003, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly see no point in getting a 65 bit CPU, I haven't checked in a while but the AGP support almost seems non-existent :| <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *cough* 64 bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the new mobos have agp support, the first motherboards (the servers) had no agp slots, if that's what you were thinking. the desktop motherboards do have agp+pci
<!--QuoteBegin--Black Mage+Dec 25 2003, 11:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Black Mage @ Dec 25 2003, 11:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Aea+Dec 25 2003, 11:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aea @ Dec 25 2003, 11:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Honestly see no point in getting a 65 bit CPU, I haven't checked in a while but the AGP support almost seems non-existent :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *cough* 64 bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the new mobos have agp support, the first motherboards (the servers) had no agp slots, if that's what you were thinking. the desktop motherboards do have agp+pci
now imagine a 64 with pci-express *drool* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't it more of the opteron mobos that lacked AGP support?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Honestly see no point in getting a 65 bit CPU, I haven't checked in a while but the AGP support almost seems non-existent :| <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point is that it performs better than a p4 3.2 GHz in most 32-bit applications under a 32-bit OS and in particular in games and costs ~200$, who cares if it is 64-bit? That's a bonus if anything.
AGP support isn't generally needed for servers, that's one reason why earlier opteron(the server processor cousin of the athlon64) boards might not have had AGP slots, but I can't really find any socket-754(athlon 64's socket) board without an AGP slot(8x even).
If anybody has a link to benchmarks I would be very interested in seeing how the <u>64</u> bit one works as a gaming platform <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If anybody has a link to benchmarks I would be very interested in seeing how the 64 bit one works as a gaming platform<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't exactly a staggering array of games but anandtech did a review that included a small bunch for the athlon 64 3000+(2 GHz clock frequency, 512 KB L2 cache)<a href='http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1937&p=5' target='_blank'>here</a>. The athlon 64 3000+ is currently, IMHO the most interesting athlon 64 processor because it is targeted at mainstream, it is a cut down version of the 3200+(2 GHz clock frequency, 1 MB cache) that is considerably cheaper and still performs well.
Keep in mind that this particular chip is very new and actually appeared in stores BEFORE being announced by AMD <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (~inverse paper launch?). It is not easy to find everywhere but has according to some been found as low as 200$ which would make this a very good value chip, currently it goes for 220$ at newegg.com(BTW, limit of 5 per customer, wth? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, I don't think they have to worry about people whoarding them all for themselves and why would they care if people did?) so that seems reasonable if you shop around/play the waiting game for a bit. Supply seems not all that large right now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Dec 26 2003, 05:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Dec 26 2003, 05:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you can't afford the money whatever more power the Athlon needs over the P4, then you can't afford a P4<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The athlon XP has a smaller die than a p4, it doesn't consume more power than a p4(infact, the ~ equivalent performance p4 consumes slightly more power). The athlon XP has a smaller die because it has fewer transistors. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I meant the price for a more powerful fan to dissipate the heat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The new AMDs (Athlon 64 and Opteron) also have large heatspreaders
edit: Aea, right now you can't say for the 64 as it doesn't have any platform using it's capabilities. Right now all it's doing is using its compatibility with the 32 bit mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I meant the price for a more powerful fan to dissipate the heat <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's less heat to dissipate so why would you bother getting a better fan? If anything you need a better heatsink(to faster dissipate the heat from the smaller hotter die to the sink). Preferably at least a copper cored aluminium sink with the copper in contact with the CPU die.
As long as the heat gets quickly distributed in the sink the fan itself doesn't need to be quite as powerful as on a p4.
And on a p4 you have an integrated heat spreader, this thing protects the core from burning up instantly if your dumb/forgetful enough not to put a heatsink at all on your p4(it starts thermal throttling and then shuts down from overheating very quickly, but the CPU can usually survive this torture). The integrated heat spreader also has good contact with the heat sink, which means you can get by with an all aluminium heat sink(this is somewhat similar to the situation with athlon XP sinks, you need a copper core in contact with the processor die(the integrated heat spreader), the rest can be aluminium).
The integrated heatspreader will actually increase thermal resistance if you are using a quality(IE copper) heat sink and good thermal paste(there's plenty of nut cases that removed their integrated heat spreader for the sake of lowering their temps a few celcius).
(There are even some complete weirdos that lap their CPU die down as bit to make it flatter and the protective layer thinner <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->)
fan = that big heatspreader + fan. By more powerful, I mean for example the SLK-900 (~70 bucks with a 90 fan) is quite more powerful than a generic 10 buck one.
As you said, a copper is quality. Quality is expensive. Thus, if you can't afford one, you can't afford a P4. Except if something's wrong :o
I've never used AMD chips, a few years back my friend had problems with two AMD chips he bought. From what I've read AMD is more stable these days and has less problems, however I still use only Intel chips. Asus MoBos LOVE intel chips <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> anyhow I also never really care about price so go figure.. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> good luck with whatever purchase you make.
I had a ton of AMD cpu's but now that i've got a p4 i don't think i'll ever go back. I've always had tons and tons of stability issues with AMDs, but this pentium is rock solid. I've never had a system more stable than this one. I hardly ever crash, and when I do its usually a bug in a program that causes it (damn you Gens and your causing bluescreens :X)
Also there's the issue of AMD's superficial made up numbering system which I absolutely hate...
At the time I bought this CPU, it was the exact same price as a same speed AMD cpu. So if you're on a really tight budget, yeah go with AMD, but if the prices are close, get Pentium, its worth the extra money.
antifreezeThe guy with the goods!Join Date: 2003-05-12Member: 16232Members, Constellation
All my desktop PC's have been AMD's. I ahve a AMD 2000 XP at the moment, and it still outpoweres Pentium a 2.5.
But i have recently got a laptop which has a 2.8 P4, its insanly fast. I have never seen things run so goddam fast, its crazy. Anyway..
AMD's - Clock lower but give a higher performance, Not a safe (I mean if it over heats it just dies), Alot cheaper Pentium - Very well built, Safe (When they overheat they turn themselfs off, Hyperthreaders are fantastic for graphic intence applications, Finally centrino's are just awsome!
<a href='http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031223/index.html' target='_blank'>tom's hardware</a> answers this question much better than any of us could. I'm sad to find out that my new athlon 64 isn't as outstanding as I thought, but hopefully I'll be laughing last when new software comes out that takes advantage of its architecture and I'm one of the few that has one...
the long and the short of it is, intel and AMD both make good processors, neither is really any more stable, AMD is better for your money but Intel is better in the high-end sector, by today's standards, if you're willing to shell out for it.
I'm about to make my new computer, and I'm ordering a P4 3.2ghz CPU. I have an AMD on this computer and that could possibly be why it sucks so much. Every P4 computer I've tried is soooooo much better. It never crashes and it NEVER overheats. GG P4.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->tom's hardware answers this question much better than any of us could. I'm sad to find out that my new athlon 64 isn't as outstanding as I thought, but hopefully I'll be laughing last when new software comes out that takes advantage of its architecture and I'm one of the few that has one...
the long and the short of it is, intel and AMD both make good processors, neither is really any more stable, AMD is better for your money but Intel is better in the high-end sector, by today's standards, if you're willing to shell out for it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tom's hardware guide is rather biased, only the mention of them as a source of benchmarks or info in pretty much any techy forum gets you rather flamed(! yes I'm serious) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. Anyway, yes p4's overclock rather well(well the low-end ones), if your going to OC the hell out of a low end processor, yes the budget p4C's are good processors. If your not going to OC much and your biggest concerns are games then athlon-64 3000+ is a very nice deal IMO, even judging by tom's hardware guide and the rough indication that the 3000+ is almost as good as the 3200+ but much cheaper.
Comments
*cough* 64 bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the new mobos have agp support, the first motherboards (the servers) had no agp slots, if that's what you were thinking. the desktop motherboards do have agp+pci
now imagine a 64 with pci-express *drool*
*cough* 64 bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the new mobos have agp support, the first motherboards (the servers) had no agp slots, if that's what you were thinking. the desktop motherboards do have agp+pci
now imagine a 64 with pci-express *drool* <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't it more of the opteron mobos that lacked AGP support?
The point is that it performs better than a p4 3.2 GHz in most 32-bit applications under a 32-bit OS and in particular in games and costs ~200$, who cares if it is 64-bit? That's a bonus if anything.
AGP support isn't generally needed for servers, that's one reason why earlier opteron(the server processor cousin of the athlon64) boards might not have had AGP slots, but I can't really find any socket-754(athlon 64's socket) board without an AGP slot(8x even).
WERD
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It isn't exactly a staggering array of games but anandtech did a review that included a small bunch for the athlon 64 3000+(2 GHz clock frequency, 512 KB L2 cache)<a href='http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1937&p=5' target='_blank'>here</a>. The athlon 64 3000+ is currently, IMHO the most interesting athlon 64 processor because it is targeted at mainstream, it is a cut down version of the 3200+(2 GHz clock frequency, 1 MB cache) that is considerably cheaper and still performs well.
Keep in mind that this particular chip is very new and actually appeared in stores BEFORE being announced by AMD <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> (~inverse paper launch?). It is not easy to find everywhere but has according to some been found as low as 200$ which would make this a very good value chip, currently it goes for 220$ at newegg.com(BTW, limit of 5 per customer, wth? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->, I don't think they have to worry about people whoarding them all for themselves and why would they care if people did?) so that seems reasonable if you shop around/play the waiting game for a bit. Supply seems not all that large right now.
The athlon XP has a smaller die than a p4, it doesn't consume more power than a p4(infact, the ~ equivalent performance p4 consumes slightly more power). The athlon XP has a smaller die because it has fewer transistors. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant the price for a more powerful fan to dissipate the heat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The new AMDs (Athlon 64 and Opteron) also have large heatspreaders
edit: Aea, right now you can't say for the 64 as it doesn't have any platform using it's capabilities. Right now all it's doing is using its compatibility with the 32 bit mode.
but back to topic so if i get an amd 3000+ Barton would i get mroe fans just incase?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's less heat to dissipate so why would you bother getting a better fan? If anything you need a better heatsink(to faster dissipate the heat from the smaller hotter die to the sink). Preferably at least a copper cored aluminium sink with the copper in contact with the CPU die.
As long as the heat gets quickly distributed in the sink the fan itself doesn't need to be quite as powerful as on a p4.
And on a p4 you have an integrated heat spreader, this thing protects the core from burning up instantly if your dumb/forgetful enough not to put a heatsink at all on your p4(it starts thermal throttling and then shuts down from overheating very quickly, but the CPU can usually survive this torture). The integrated heat spreader also has good contact with the heat sink, which means you can get by with an all aluminium heat sink(this is somewhat similar to the situation with athlon XP sinks, you need a copper core in contact with the processor die(the integrated heat spreader), the rest can be aluminium).
The integrated heatspreader will actually increase thermal resistance if you are using a quality(IE copper) heat sink and good thermal paste(there's plenty of nut cases that removed their integrated heat spreader for the sake of lowering their temps a few celcius).
(There are even some complete weirdos that lap their CPU die down as bit to make it flatter and the protective layer thinner <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As you said, a copper is quality. Quality is expensive. Thus, if you can't afford one, you can't afford a P4. Except if something's wrong :o
I had a ton of AMD cpu's but now that i've got a p4 i don't think i'll ever go back. I've always had tons and tons of stability issues with AMDs, but this pentium is rock solid. I've never had a system more stable than this one. I hardly ever crash, and when I do its usually a bug in a program that causes it (damn you Gens and your causing bluescreens :X)
Also there's the issue of AMD's superficial made up numbering system which I absolutely hate...
At the time I bought this CPU, it was the exact same price as a same speed AMD cpu. So if you're on a really tight budget, yeah go with AMD, but if the prices are close, get Pentium, its worth the extra money.
::wipes a tear from his eye::
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
But i have recently got a laptop which has a 2.8 P4, its insanly fast. I have never seen things run so goddam fast, its crazy. Anyway..
AMD's - Clock lower but give a higher performance, Not a safe (I mean if it over heats it just dies), Alot cheaper
Pentium - Very well built, Safe (When they overheat they turn themselfs off, Hyperthreaders are fantastic for graphic intence applications, Finally centrino's are just awsome!
oh, and software is what matters, my amd 1.4ghz is more responsive than my friends' generic dells at p4-2.6ghz because i have it tuned so well.
the long and the short of it is, intel and AMD both make good processors, neither is really any more stable, AMD is better for your money but Intel is better in the high-end sector, by today's standards, if you're willing to shell out for it.
the long and the short of it is, intel and AMD both make good processors, neither is really any more stable, AMD is better for your money but Intel is better in the high-end sector, by today's standards, if you're willing to shell out for it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tom's hardware guide is rather biased, only the mention of them as a source of benchmarks or info in pretty much any techy forum gets you rather flamed(! yes I'm serious) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. Anyway, yes p4's overclock rather well(well the low-end ones), if your going to OC the hell out of a low end processor, yes the budget p4C's are good processors. If your not going to OC much and your biggest concerns are games then athlon-64 3000+ is a very nice deal IMO, even judging by tom's hardware guide and the rough indication that the 3000+ is almost as good as the 3200+ but much cheaper.