I like them all acept the fade one... Definatly an improvment on the reality of the game.. Though i dont think they would be anymore frightfull. But maybe thats just me.
It is true that the models arnt exactly fitting of there bacterium heratage. But im sure they avoided this for polycount reasons. Adding hundreds of polys for each model and structure would take its tole.
But i wish you the best of luck with your art and models. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Dont listen to the angery flamers. Even if they arnt implimented, there cool.
Mods ! Admins ! Someone phase this to NS customization !
Theses sketches are leet ! Make the current alien models seem downright cute. I can't wait the release of theses ignoble packs of slimy flesh !
-skulk : pretty scary , instead of having one naughty doggy you have a gigantic mouth running at you. Would scare me for sure. -gorge : pretty disgusting ! The present gorge is borderline nice. Now that's something fat and ugly ! -lerk : its horrible appearance would just increase the annoyance to marines , especially considering it will fly up close with ugly , nasty teeth. Nothing like the cute birdie we have now. -fade : mean looking , would strike fear to a greater degree. Nice replacement of the humanoid alien , with a smooth but bizarre shape. -onos : looks brutal and ugly ! I'm certain my first reaction when seeing that model ingame will be to flee. The corrida is over ! Now the real monstruosities arrive.
I dident like the onos sketch at first. but imagining that huge arm thing on the back as an attack.. then it pushing itself into a marine and eating it, slinging a chewed off leg bearly missing one of his teamates.. i can see the urin trail down the leg of last man standing.
I only like the Skulk and the Gorge. The other ones... I think they shouldn't be the same if others are changed, but they shouldn't be like you drew them. PS [chant] Phase! Phase! Phase!
The other aliens didn't look like they could function correctly without somesort of realistic means of locomotion. They look like something you'd find at the bottom of the Moray Abyss.
I *do* definately agree, the aliens need revamping, they're not very scary.
I don't agree with most of the sketches you've posted here =/ sorry.
Things I'd like to see changed about current aliens: Less earth - like features... maybe the aliens don't all have heads and legs. I realise this is exactly what the skethes look like, but I'm talking about something more realistic, something that is going to believably chase me down a hallway, up a ladder and jump through a window to bite me.
I like the current Onos, except for the front end - I'd like to see something like a gigantic grinning mouth with rows of teeth sticking everywhere, and no eyes. Sort of like the movie "Critters", only without the eyes.
It's a bit of a trade off, I don't like the sluggish no-leg look of the skethes, but at the same time they are definately not from Earth, and definately scary.
The thing is that Flayra doesn't want big scary monster type aliens. He wanted them to be more mammalish so people could more easily identify with them. One of the things that Flayra was going for was that the Kharaa aren't really evil, they're just trying to survive and compete.
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
It's true that the official look and feel of the Kharaa isn't the sort of thing we can/should change now, but this poster has put his/her effort into sketches. I'm deciding to <span style='color:orange'>*phase*</span> this to NS Customization instead of locking it...perhaps one or more of these can be made for us in full 3d glory?
Well, for all intents and purposes, they ARE blobs. As for "more scary", I personally, would be scared of a creature regardless of what it looked like if it had a habit of dropping behind my squadmates, killing them, and running before anyone could shoot at it. While those are more of a directly more palatable "fear", I find skulks are just as scary simply because even though they don't look horrible as those things. Why?
1. Skulks look alien, while at the same time looking vaugly like somthing I might see nextdoor.
2. Skulks are small and fast. No matter what they look like. And they LOOK the part. We don't need somthing that is all mouth to be aware of this fact.
3. Skulks kill. A rabbit would be horrifing if everything within fifty meteres exploded whenever it wiggled it's ears.
I feel these are perfect images for the NS aliens IF NS would have been created from a "horror and gore" standpoint, ala gloom. Instead, NS is about "lush sci-fi enviroments". It isn't about scaring the pants off of someone making the most horrific creatures possible, it's creating a real and tactical simulation of a xenoform encounter. And, if I may be so bold, not ALL xenoforms one may encounter will be horrible creatures like these oh-so-sterotypical blobs that represent a horror film's take on a xenoform. Instead, we have the aliens in NS, which are fantastic creatures evolved for spesific purposes. However, in this case, they are evolved for killing stuff, so we're sending in marines instead of biologists.
If you DO plan to make models based on these drawings, I wish you luck. However, as they stand, I can not accept these aliens as fitting with the overall image of NS.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Skulkie reminds me of the bug in Lost In Space lol
Y'know, these are probably the best concepts for alternative kharaa models I've seen. The fade is awesome, and I think they'd all fit together very well. The only one I'm unsure about is the lerk, but I guess finding a way to do a flying slug would be tricky ^^
<b>Stakhanov:</b> Actually, with some clever modelling & texturing, you can get away with pretty low polys, or at least as many as the current ones... after all, they <i>are</i> "blob"-like... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>2_of_8:</b> What did you like about the skulk n' gorge? What didn't you like about the other 3?
<b>Locane:</b> I wasn't really going for anything "realistic" or "easily identified with"... Just that my taste in these matters is: "The less explainable, the better." I don't like to see things I see anyday (cows, dogs, etc...) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Psycho-Kinetic H F:</b> That's too bad. But see, that's the thing, the word "alien" to me take a very general meaning, in that not only are aliens from another planet/part of the universe, but they <i>look</i> alien as well...
<b>Redford:</b> Yes, skulks <i>do</i> currently scare me when they pounce unnanounced into the middle of a squad n' starts a'chewin', but the "scary" part I meant was more of a psychological, nightmaresque, H.P. Lovecraft kinda deal, not stereotipical class B sci-fi movies' blobs... if you've never read Lovecraft, I suggest you <i>do so</i>... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>2-D:</b> True
[RAMBLE] Basically, I just want alien models that respect what you see when you <i>are</i> one... Way I see it, the bacterium creates lifeforms through the hives to fend off human invaders, so logically they'd be optimal forms in erradicating the threat, each with it's own "purpose"... therefore, I just drew 'em enphasizing the "weapons" they use to do so... then they'd need some "body" to support those weapons... bodies made by bacterium however it <i>imagines</i> their shapes'd be, and who knows how the bacterium "thinks"?... how those bodies work, cientifically speaking, is a sort of mystery, but they work... after all, the Fade fades, the gorge vomits structures, the skulk exlodes... fantasy... <i>new</i> things... <i>different</i> things... <i>that's</i> what I want... [/RAMBLE]
hey m8, get the side and front view for one of em, pref skulk or onos or gorge and i might have a go at one of em, if it turns out good, i might try another one. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
*eeek skulk i like the skulk i dun like the gorge i like the lerk i dun like the fade i like the onos but.... do any of you have the half life manuel ? in that was a picture or a setch of this animal dude which which looked like the present onos but it had one difference its jaws was extendable all look in your half life manuesl and you’ll see what I’m talking about
Looking at the fade, i can only think of a marine jumping on it's back like a pogo-stick...
and the lerk.. best description ever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 19 2003, 07:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 19 2003, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Looking at the fade, i can only think of a marine jumping on it's back like a pogo-stick... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol! yeah, it <i>could</i> work as a pogo stick... maybe it <i>does</i>, in it's free time... but try to imagine it's movement more snake-like... and the "foot", which separates into fleshy fibers, wavers like those green, one eyed Simpsons aliens I recalled before...
<b>coolcookiecooks:</b> k, I'll draw n' post more viewpoints> but is it <i>reeeally</i> necessary? I mean, they're not so complicated as to not be able to imagine how they'd look from the front or the sides... I <i>did</i> draw 'em in a sort of side/front/top perspective, after all...
My favorite has to be a gorge. Now THAT is what comes to mind when I think 'gorge', not the cutsey 'plush gorge' we have currently. Skulk is good but a little 'spidery' for lack of a better word. Although I personally the current NS gorge is the one currently needing a fix. Good job (and bump in disguise)
Blobs as in like almost a liquid form that can barely stay in shape?
Or like a bit of a slime mold, with all the gross stuff in it, like eye balls, some faces here and there, some bubbling flesh, ? xD
*I saw the sketch of your idea after the posting (god you guys reply like mad animals on crack) XD They are pretty damn COOL concept drawing. Although the fade looks like a modern art masterpiece rather than a buff **** he is
im playing this game for a year or so, and im so used to the current models, the change sounds bad as a theory but more i see this scretches more i like them. the current models have no relation between any alien-like movie and the explanation of real creatures mutated is very weak. the new model concept as grose/disgusting/scary alien shapes fits better (IMHO). may this proposal of new models arent the best ones, or just not complete/finiched/polished ones, but i know for sure this is the start of a very good idea/change for this game.
I like ! When I'll be finished with the Ferai model I may begin one of those <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
CaCa, I have to admit, when I saw your description I had my doubts. But your sketches, they are very interesting.
I think you're losing some impact with the black and white sketches, though; maybe color some of them. Add some ooze coming from some of the aliens, and drool from that huge-**** pain orifice on the front of the skulk.
BTW: Instead of 'anus', sphinchter works well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--beige+Nov 19 2003, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (beige @ Nov 19 2003, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you're losing some impact with the black and white sketches, though; maybe color some of them. Add some ooze coming from some of the aliens, and drool from that huge-**** pain orifice on the front of the skulk. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> nah, I can't color half as well as draw, so... but if someone would model them, it'd be up to <i>them</i> to see to the coloring... and seeing as I'd actually like to actually get these to replace the current aliens hardcodewise(which'll probably be an impossible campaign) I consider these sketches just that, sketches... ideas thrown out there for brainstorming n' stuff...
now, if taken to the 3rd Dd, who knows what'll happen? (not <i>*too*</i> much, I hope...)
whaddy'all think? D'ye think Flayra would actually even consider these? No? Yeah, well, it's true he already has T-shirts n' posters n' a whole image of NS with the current Kharaa, making change a bit complicated (not much tho)... anyway, I just hafta wonder: is that a good thing? I mean, no disrespect, but the current Kharaa are merely "cute" criters turned into "jokes", most of the time...
I'm all for "fun", joking mods n' all, but NS doesn't seem like one at all to me...
<!--QuoteBegin--X_Stickman+Nov 17 2003, 11:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Nov 17 2003, 11:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yeah, underneath where you write the reply to the post, there's a thing called "File Attachments". Click browse, make sure your file is a jpg and it's small enough, and upload it.
It comes up like this (this is me annoyin' some gangsta's on the hard, bad-*ss "Habbo Hotel") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Unichat wannabes...
<!--QuoteBegin--Zig+Nov 19 2003, 11:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Nov 19 2003, 11:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CaCa+Nov 17 2003, 01:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaCa @ Nov 17 2003, 01:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> gorge's "building tentacles" which don't exist on the gorge model <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> knub. it's gorgey's tongue ^_^ (and it's there.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, that... I knew it was something like that... but the fact is, it's not really noticeable... I mean, when I started playing NS, and went gorge, I couldn't figure out what the heck all that was...
anyway, the point is, current aliens are fugly, in my eyes... I can't stop playing NS, yet I hurt almost physically, when looking at the aliens... so I try to not pay much attention to detail and imagine they're more like them sketches...
I mean, I just HATE the fact that you called the gorge, Gorgey... I don't want 'em to be cute, I want'em to be Aliens freaky, y'know?
ah well... I surrender... let's keep the modifed farm animals... *sigh*
No, keep at it; this is good stuff. I mean, these are just sketches, develop it a bit more and it could make a very interesting modification for NS, at the very least.
Maybe something for the Soviets to fight <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Though i dont think they would be anymore frightfull. But maybe thats just me.
It is true that the models arnt exactly fitting of there bacterium heratage. But im sure they avoided this for polycount reasons. Adding hundreds of polys for each model and structure would take its tole.
But i wish you the best of luck with your art and models. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Dont listen to the angery flamers. Even if they arnt implimented, there cool.
Mods ! Admins ! Someone phase this to NS customization !
Theses sketches are leet ! Make the current alien models seem downright cute. I can't wait the release of theses ignoble packs of slimy flesh !
-skulk : pretty scary , instead of having one naughty doggy you have a gigantic mouth running at you. Would scare me for sure.
-gorge : pretty disgusting ! The present gorge is borderline nice. Now that's something fat and ugly !
-lerk : its horrible appearance would just increase the annoyance to marines , especially considering it will fly up close with ugly , nasty teeth. Nothing like the cute birdie we have now.
-fade : mean looking , would strike fear to a greater degree. Nice replacement of the humanoid alien , with a smooth but bizarre shape.
-onos : looks brutal and ugly ! I'm certain my first reaction when seeing that model ingame will be to flee. The corrida is over ! Now the real monstruosities arrive.
YES! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
PS [chant] Phase! Phase! Phase!
The other aliens didn't look like they could function correctly without somesort of realistic means of locomotion. They look like something you'd find at the bottom of the Moray Abyss.
I *do* definately agree, the aliens need revamping, they're not very scary.
I don't agree with most of the sketches you've posted here =/ sorry.
Things I'd like to see changed about current aliens: Less earth - like features... maybe the aliens don't all have heads and legs. I realise this is exactly what the skethes look like, but I'm talking about something more realistic, something that is going to believably chase me down a hallway, up a ladder and jump through a window to bite me.
I like the current Onos, except for the front end - I'd like to see something like a gigantic grinning mouth with rows of teeth sticking everywhere, and no eyes. Sort of like the movie "Critters", only without the eyes.
It's a bit of a trade off, I don't like the sluggish no-leg look of the skethes, but at the same time they are definately not from Earth, and definately scary.
Just my thoughts.
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. Skulks look alien, while at the same time looking vaugly like somthing I might see nextdoor.
2. Skulks are small and fast. No matter what they look like. And they LOOK the part. We don't need somthing that is all mouth to be aware of this fact.
3. Skulks kill. A rabbit would be horrifing if everything within fifty meteres exploded whenever it wiggled it's ears.
I feel these are perfect images for the NS aliens IF NS would have been created from a "horror and gore" standpoint, ala gloom. Instead, NS is about "lush sci-fi enviroments". It isn't about scaring the pants off of someone making the most horrific creatures possible, it's creating a real and tactical simulation of a xenoform encounter. And, if I may be so bold, not ALL xenoforms one may encounter will be horrible creatures like these oh-so-sterotypical blobs that represent a horror film's take on a xenoform. Instead, we have the aliens in NS, which are fantastic creatures evolved for spesific purposes. However, in this case, they are evolved for killing stuff, so we're sending in marines instead of biologists.
If you DO plan to make models based on these drawings, I wish you luck. However, as they stand, I can not accept these aliens as fitting with the overall image of NS.
to respond to some o' yer points of view:
<b>Stakhanov:</b> Actually, with some clever modelling & texturing, you can get away with pretty low polys, or at least as many as the current ones... after all, they <i>are</i> "blob"-like... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>2_of_8:</b> What did you like about the skulk n' gorge? What didn't you like about the other 3?
<b>Locane:</b> I wasn't really going for anything "realistic" or "easily identified with"... Just that my taste in these matters is: "The less explainable, the better." I don't like to see things I see anyday (cows, dogs, etc...) <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>Psycho-Kinetic H F:</b> That's too bad. But see, that's the thing, the word "alien" to me take a very general meaning, in that not only are aliens from another planet/part of the universe, but they <i>look</i> alien as well...
<b>Redford:</b> Yes, skulks <i>do</i> currently scare me when they pounce unnanounced into the middle of a squad n' starts a'chewin', but the "scary" part I meant was more of a psychological, nightmaresque, H.P. Lovecraft kinda deal, not stereotipical class B sci-fi movies' blobs... if you've never read Lovecraft, I suggest you <i>do so</i>... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>2-D:</b> True
[RAMBLE] Basically, I just want alien models that respect what you see when you <i>are</i> one...
Way I see it, the bacterium creates lifeforms through the hives to fend off human invaders, so logically they'd be optimal forms in erradicating the threat, each with it's own "purpose"... therefore, I just drew 'em enphasizing the "weapons" they use to do so... then they'd need some "body" to support those weapons... bodies made by bacterium however it <i>imagines</i> their shapes'd be, and who knows how the bacterium "thinks"?... how those bodies work, cientifically speaking, is a sort of mystery, but they work... after all, the Fade fades, the gorge vomits structures, the skulk exlodes...
fantasy... <i>new</i> things... <i>different</i> things... <i>that's</i> what I want... [/RAMBLE]
i like the skulk
i dun like the gorge
i like the lerk
i dun like the fade
i like the onos but.... do any of you have the half life manuel ? in that was a picture or a setch of this animal dude which which looked like the present onos but it had one difference its jaws was extendable all look in your half life manuesl and you’ll see what I’m talking about
and the lerk.. best description ever <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
lol! yeah, it <i>could</i> work as a pogo stick... maybe it <i>does</i>, in it's free time...
but try to imagine it's movement more snake-like... and the "foot", which separates into fleshy fibers, wavers like those green, one eyed Simpsons aliens I recalled before...
<b>coolcookiecooks:</b> k, I'll draw n' post more viewpoints> but is it <i>reeeally</i> necessary? I mean, they're not so complicated as to not be able to imagine how they'd look from the front or the sides... I <i>did</i> draw 'em in a sort of side/front/top perspective, after all...
Good job (and bump in disguise)
Or like a bit of a slime mold, with all the gross stuff in it, like eye balls, some faces here and there, some bubbling flesh, ? xD
*I saw the sketch of your idea after the posting (god you guys reply like mad animals on crack) XD
They are pretty damn COOL concept drawing. Although the fade looks like a modern art masterpiece rather than a buff **** he is
the current models have no relation between any alien-like movie and the explanation of real creatures mutated is very weak.
the new model concept as grose/disgusting/scary alien shapes fits better (IMHO).
may this proposal of new models arent the best ones, or just not complete/finiched/polished ones, but i know for sure this is the start of a very good idea/change for this game.
When I'll be finished with the Ferai model I may begin one of those <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think you're losing some impact with the black and white sketches, though; maybe color some of them. Add some ooze coming from some of the aliens, and drool from that huge-**** pain orifice on the front of the skulk.
nah, I can't color half as well as draw, so...
but if someone would model them, it'd be up to <i>them</i> to see to the coloring...
and seeing as I'd actually like to actually get these to replace the current aliens hardcodewise(which'll probably be an impossible campaign) I consider these sketches just that, sketches... ideas thrown out there for brainstorming n' stuff...
now, if taken to the 3rd Dd, who knows what'll happen? (not <i>*too*</i> much, I hope...)
whaddy'all think? D'ye think Flayra would actually even consider these? No? Yeah, well, it's true he already has T-shirts n' posters n' a whole image of NS with the current Kharaa, making change a bit complicated (not much tho)... anyway, I just hafta wonder: is that a good thing? I mean, no disrespect, but the current Kharaa are merely "cute" criters turned into "jokes", most of the time...
I'm all for "fun", joking mods n' all, but NS doesn't seem like one at all to me...
knub.
it's gorgey's tongue ^_^
(and it's there.)
It comes up like this (this is me annoyin' some gangsta's on the hard, bad-*ss "Habbo Hotel") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unichat wannabes...
knub.
it's gorgey's tongue ^_^
(and it's there.) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, that... I knew it was something like that... but the fact is, it's not really noticeable... I mean, when I started playing NS, and went gorge, I couldn't figure out what the heck all that was...
anyway, the point is, current aliens are fugly, in my eyes... I can't stop playing NS, yet I hurt almost physically, when looking at the aliens... so I try to not pay much attention to detail and imagine they're more like them sketches...
I mean, I just HATE the fact that you called the gorge, Gorgey... I don't want 'em to be cute, I want'em to be Aliens freaky, y'know?
ah well... I surrender... let's keep the modifed farm animals...
*sigh*
Maybe something for the Soviets to fight <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->