Starting new evolution topic. Get back on track! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks, saved Marine01/Me/Some Mod/ect. the trouble.
<!--QuoteBegin--es_quatro+Oct 7 2003, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (es_quatro @ Oct 7 2003, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 6 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 6 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 6 2003, 03:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 6 2003, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> this may seem like a bit of a cop out, but just because the bible doesnt say something, doesnt mean it didnt happen.
Cain found a wife. where from? i dont know <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The bible tends to not mention things because for the time of its conception the explanations given were satisfactory for a - by our standards - primitive people.
Think about it, don't know about the rest of the world out there ? That explains why a local flood is deemed to be global. Or how Noah can take two of every living animal when you don't know about the millions that are elsewhere.
If your society isn't advanced enough to understand genetic problems coming from Adam and Eve being the 'father and mother' of us all then of course it seems like a perfectly logical explanation for how we came to be. Cain found a wife - if memory serves - from the land of Nod or some such.
You still believe in a book that omits critical details ? If God created 20 men and women or whatever number takes your fancy then why not just say so ? Maybe someone decided to edit the original story at a later date to add in the whole 'Nod' angle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Noah took two kinds of every animal, meaning he took two dogs, and NOT two german sheperds, two border collies, two cocker spaniels, two great danes.
The world before the flood was indeed much different from todays world. Possibly quite similar to Gondwanaland or whatever it is called. And much of the continental shifting ensued during this flood.
Could it be that Adam and Eve were inhererently genetically rich. They may have had a much more diverse gene pool. which is why God permitted the relations with brothers and sisters. This was later 'outlawed' in Leviticus. This is believed to be because the population was such that this was not necessary and the gene pool had significantly broken down into the various pools that in continuing to do so would result in the genetic problems people would have today.
As for evolution, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that we have indeed a young earth.
For example, most of you know well that the moon affects the earths oceans bringing them into a football shape to give us the tides. Because of this, the length of the earth's day increases by 0.02 seconds each century. If you go back a couple of billion years then it turns into a very short earth day. --> Actually I forgot where I was going with this one, maybe it will come back to me, and I will edit it or someone will post something against it and I will remember why it is a good point.
Another is the amount of salt contained in the ocean, If there was none to begin with and you subtract the adding the salt that gets added each year. Then the earth is not even close to half a billion years old. I forget the figures for this.
I am sorry this is not more of an organised argument. but it is late and I will be willing to try and back these up for those that need it .
Creation is the only logical explanation of how things came to be,
Why is evolution so prevalent, because it appears to be the 'best' theory that doesn't attribute anything to God.
Quatro <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And from those two dogs came all the variations of dog that we now have in how many years again ?
Continental shifting, everyone seems to disagree on the age of the Earth based on this. In fact almost every single dating method seems to be debated. All I can is that in recent (now that we've been observing this phenomenon) times, this drift happens <b> very slowly </b>.
The fundamental problem with dating methods seems to be that we can't pin down a constant on which to base things.
I'm not sure how you can claim creation to be the only logical explanation, given fossil records of creatures that they wouldn't have had a clue existed in biblical times.
My point is that the Bible is written by a more primitive people, in a more primitive time. Woman created for man, woman tempting man.... hmmm...some gender bias there I think. God the "father" when logically mother would be more accurate. How was childbirth <b>ever supposed to be painless ? </b>. The design of a woman seems to indicate pain being inevitable...not to mention other female animals that go through a similar process...were they cursed by Adam and Eve as well ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually that is nothing the same. We know that the heart has a function. 20 years ago, we thought that the Tonsils that we all have (or have had removed) were useless when in fact it is now known that they help to prevent throat diseases. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only to a limited extent do the tonsils do this.
I've already thrashed Gibbering in Genesis over the appendix, don't make me bring out my stick again <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (I'm an immunologist incidently).
The appendix does not have an important function in the immune system, that is *fact*.
And incidently, Gibbering in Genesis is not a good source in these discussions. See previous threads for reasons why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no evidence that Adam and Eve were less "evolved" then us. In fact, the contrary would seem to be true as they advanced in technology far faster then the supposed Neandrathal ever did.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For being completely inbred they did very well I feel <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Boggle
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aegeri pointed out that it is through genetic mutation that a breeding pair can produce so many varieties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but there are 3 pairs of grandparents who are genetically distinct, and both males are genetically distinct from the females. Hence they are outbred.
Adam and Eve, and their children breeding would be INBRED, because the initial genetic similarity is too high, thus increasing the chance that chromosomes will stick together during meiosis.
In short, they would of had either a lot of birth defects (arising from random recombination leading to insertions/deletions) or their children had a high affinity for downs syndrome :/
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 05:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 05:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When did i say adam and eve's children inbred?
Cain left and went wery far away and found a wife there. Its virtually impossible to have children when you are 100 miles away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that is just a cop out.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Oct 8 2003, 02:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Oct 8 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 05:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 05:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When did i say adam and eve's children inbred?
Cain left and went wery far away and found a wife there. Its virtually impossible to have children when you are 100 miles away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that is just a cop out.
So he found a random wife from nowhere O_o <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess God created Adam, Eve and a third woman. And that woman was tossed far away because God, surely being all knowing, knew in advance that he would boot A&E out of the paradise so he just created a third woman to keep them from inbreeding. Now I just wonder why God created paradise in the first place...
God created Adam and Eve, then when they go kicked out of paradise and Cain went away, God created some more women for cain (multiple wives were not uncommon for the ancient jews)
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> he is omniscient. of course he did <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So why God even created paradise? What's the point? Also, if I remember correctly *flips bible* Okay, I'm translating from finish to english: God: Who told you you are naked? Have you eaten from the tree, that I forbid you not to eat? Man: Woman, who you gave me as an accompanion, gave me the fruit from that tree, and I ate it God to woman: What have you done! *God continues to rant*
He seems rather surprised there. Why is he pretending to be surprised if he really is not? Why did he allow Adam to eat the fruit? Either he is not omiscient or he is a dumb****(see? I can put things delicately too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Also I read that God rested on the seventh day. If he is almighty, why he has to rest? If one must rest, then there is also something he can't do. There is a limit to his strength.
Why did god create paradise? Because he wanted somewhere his perfect beings could live perfectly with him. Why do people want to buy nice houses?
Why is God surprised? He was just asking questions. Its like the parent asking the childs who ate all the chocolate when they child has a big chocolate mess round his mouth.
Why did God allow adam to eat the fruit? Because Adam had free will. There is no point having free will if you can only do right. there has to be the opportunity of doing wrong, otherwise it is not free will. If you cannot choose (between doing right and doing wrong) you dont have free will
God rested on the seventh day because he was finished.
If you have an important project to hand in and you get it done on time, you dont carry on working on it do you?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 07:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How is God surprised? He was just asking questions. Its like the parent asking the childs who ate all the chocolate when they child has a big chocolate mess round his mouth.
God rested on the seventh day because he was finished.
If you have an important project to hand in and you get it done on time, you dont carry on working on it do you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seizing to work and resting are two completely different things. Resting happens after you've worked hard. Creating a stone and creating a world should be equally hard tasks to perfect being, that has no limits.
And if you know your kid is going to steal, say a lollipop from a store, you're not going to let him I assume. You didn't answer my question: why God created paradise in the first place, if he knew A&E would eat the fruit? Why didn't he make us somehow different...better. Why didn't he just destroy Morning Star?
Edit: and how can you say I have a free will if God knows in advance what I'm going to do? Even before God created heaven and hell, he knew where I would go after I die? Now if he is all powerful and wants us to stay close to him, why didn't he just create a tighter bond between man and himself, so that we couldn't ever deny his existance?
If i knew my kid was going to steal a lollipop from the store, i would tell him that stealing is wrong and that i will punish him if he did steal something.
God is something nobody can understand.
If you offer a child a chocolate, you know they will say yes, but they still have a choice. (dont be nitpicky please)
God is everywhere, even outside time and space. He can see what is going to happen in the future, things in the past ar happening right now for him
You have free will because God does not force you to do something. He knows what you will do, <i>but it is still your choice</i> If you know your friend is going to go to the cinema, and you leave him alone, he still chooses to go. Just because you knew he would go doesnt mean he didnt have a choice
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 07:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 07:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i have edited my post answering your question.
If i knew my kid was going to steal a lollipop from the store, i would tell him that stealing is wrong and that i will punish him if he did steal something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know that your kid is still going steal, even if you say that stealing is wrong. Now God knew that even if he said "Don't take the fruit" he knew Adam was going to eat the fruit.
God didn't create a stronger link between man and himself than he did. He knew earth would be swarming with atheists in 21st century. It seems that he doesn't mind me being an atheist since he doesn't want to reveal himself to me. Hew could but won't, and he knew that ages ago.
Now what's the point in giving me a free will and then observing, punishing and rewarding me for what I, his own creation, will do even though he knows that in advance? Just...what's the point? If he really just wants us to worship him, he could have made that happen, yet he decides to punish me for his own doings. He could have just NOT let me born and thus I wouldn't go to hell. He knows I'm going to go there but he decides to let me suffer.
One more time I ask, what's the point? Why he wants me to suffer? He created me, he knew before he did that I would go to hell. But he wants me to suffer eternally anyway?
Gee, thanks God. You're too kind.
Edit: So basically God could have given us the free will AND mmake it so that we won't take the fruit. "I think I'm going to create a world now. I think I'm going to make humans so that they will steal from me so I kick them out of the paradise" As opposed to "I think I'm going to create humans so that they have free will but they aren't evil so I can live with them in peace and harmony forever"
Why do we have free will? Its so we can choose for ourselves if we want to worship God or not. God doesnt want you to go to hell, but if you choose to go there, he won't try to stop you
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think I'm going to create humans so that they have free will but they aren't evil so I can live with them in peace and harmony forever"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the plan, but humans messed it up
There are three will of God. the will of command - telling us what to do - the ten commandments. The will of want - this part of go dwants everyone to love him and go to be with him when they die The will of decree - God has set out what will happen. He may not want it to happen that way, but that is the way he set it out, so it will happen
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 07:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 07:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That was the plan, but humans messed it up <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, god messed it up. Don't you get it, we don't have free will. It's not free will if God already knows what is going to happen. There is no 'choice' between good and evil if God knows what I'm going to choose and there is nothing that can change that. He won't stop me if I choose to go to hell but how can I choose anymore if God knows what that will be? Now we are talking about unchangable destiny. Why God allowed me to born if he knew I would go to hell? Try to understand, there is no choice for me. That choice has been made long before I was born, so the real question is why did he create me in the first place? Would you buy a kitten even though you'd know that it would die as soon as you buy it, because of you. It wouldn't die if wouldn't buy it, so why would you buy it? There is not 0,00001% chance that it would live, so why would you buy it?
God gave us everything, and we threw it back at him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why did he create me in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a question only God can answer, but i would guess that he created you so you could love him
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you buy a kitten even though you'd know that it would die as soon as you buy it, because of you. It wouldn't die if wouldn't buy it, so why would you buy it? There is not 0,00001% chance that it would live, so why would you buy it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, i would choose not to buy it. I dont see how this relates to the topic. I see that the kitten will die, so i decide not to buy it. I still have a choice as to whether i buy it or not.
God knows what you are going to do, but he doesnt tell you what you are going to do, therefore <b>You Still Choose</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 8 2003, 08:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 8 2003, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, i would choose not to buy it. I dont see how this relates to the topic. I see that the kitten will die, so i decide not to buy it. I still have a choice as to whether i buy it or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God knows I'm going to hell and yet he decides to create me. You know the kitten is going to die and suffer so you won't buy it.
From Gods point of view, creating you may have been essential for the survival of the human race. You may discover a way to stop a global killer for instance, we dont know
I am not more merciful than God in buying the kitten. because nobody knows why he created you.
If you could see what would happen if God didn't create you,, only then could you decide if your existance is a good thing or not
I wonder if God affects how we are born. We all are born with different personalities. Now if God created my sceptical side, then how can he punish me for not being a believer? Or how can he reward you for that? Your parents/you personality might have been different and you might have not become a believer.
Then again, if it's all just random, it's just lottery. Other people get different personalities and different parents. Now God is punishing me for having bad luck?
Edit: We should continue our dialog tomorrow. I'm going to bed.
Each of us has a personality, God designed each of us individually, people change. I used to be very gullible (believing in everything) I have since changed and now think a lot more about things
Since when was hell a punishment? Its a consequence. We bring those upon ourselves btw
People don't have equal chances of becoming believers, hence it doesn't seem very fair to punish others and reward others. It's like you'd make 10 different exams for 10 different people and then punish those who get bad results and reward those who do good in the exam.
But then again, since when was God supposed to be fair anyway. His doing things only to please himself. That's the nature of the universe.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Oct 9 2003, 09:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Oct 9 2003, 09:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> People don't have equal chances of becoming believers, hence it doesn't seem very fair to punish others and reward others. It's like you'd make 10 different exams for 10 different people and then punish those who get bad results and reward those who do good in the exam. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What makes you think you knwo better than God? How can you question him?
Allow me to elaborate on Dread's point, because you clearly aren't getting it.
If you believe anything -even a deity- is capable of being 'all knowing'. In the sense that they see everything that will happen and can effectively predict the future. Then this automatically implies predetermination, or some form of fate.
The concept of free will, and the concept of a creator who knows everything that will happen are not compatable. You can't say "Well PersonX could have chosen to accept jesus and go to heaven, but didn't" - because in order for god to know before hand that PersonX would definately end up in hell, the outcome must have been predetermined.
As a side note, you could also argue that any being that has complete knowledge of all that will occur in a system, must not be capable of influencing the system past its creation, or not have free will itself. Otherwise it would be capable of changing its mind and altering part of the system later down the line, which would make its supposedly 'all-knowing' prediction false. Either this being is capable of perfectly predicting everything that can happen, but incapable of altering the system later down the line. Or the being is capable of knowing all, and altering the system, but incapable of changing its mind. If the being is capable of both influencing the system after its creation, and changing its mind later on, then it cannot be capable of predicting exactly what will happen in the future.
The additional point is, if a deity is all powerful and all knowing, when he creates a system he effectively pre-determines everything that will happen in it. In the case of a christian god, it can be said that the god must have known, prior to ever creating adam, that a creation of that sort would defy him and eat from the tree of knowledge (or whatever). Assuming this god is all powerful, there is no reason he could not have created an Adam which would not defy him, however the Adam that was created, was pre-determined to fall from eden. By that logic, everything that occurs on earth would be the pre-determined will of god. It becomes rather odd to consider the idea of this god punishing his creations for acts that they were predetermined to commit.
Have you actually read the thread, or did you just look at the last reply?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are three will of God. the will of command - telling us what to do - the ten commandments. The will of want - this part of go dwants everyone to love him and go to be with him when they die The will of decree - God has set out what will happen. He may not want it to happen that way, but that is the way he set it out, so it will happen
That explains how omniscience and evil can co-exist.
I did hope i wouldnt have to say this, but let me resort to AS level Philosophy.
Lets say you are lying in bed, and you decide not to go outside today. You have made a <b>choice</b> not to go outside. Now, if i told you that the door was locked and you couldnt go outside, it doesnt subtract from the fact that you made the <b>decision</b> not to go outside.
Its like that with us and God. God knows that the door is locked, but he doesnt tell us, so the decision to stay inside is our <b>choice</b>
If you and a freind were arguing and you say something your freind knew you would say, he would say "i knew you were going to say that." It doesnt matter if he knew or not, you consiously made a decision to say what you did.
I know this isnt going to make the slightest bit of difference to you, infact i doubt you will even bother reading it. For the record, i feel that that explains your major questions, so from now on, i will probably just quote this post. Unless you have any further issues, im going to play some online games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you actually read the thread, or did you just look at the last reply? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because every other post isnt mine doesn't mean i haven't read the thread, thankyou.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That explains how omniscience and evil can co-exist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lovely, however this wasn't the point i was addressing, i never used the word evil. Infact i don't even believe in the concept. The current debating point was the co-existance of omniscience and free will. Which your quote doesn't address at all. (I'd also probably argue that it doesn't explain how omniscience co-exists with 'evil' anyway, but i'll leave that for someone else to cover)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lets say you are lying in bed, and you decide not to go outside today. You have made a <b>choice</b> not to go outside. Now, if i told you that the door was locked and you couldnt go outside, it doesnt subtract from the fact that you made the <b>decision</b> not to go outside. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but this example isnt applicable, omniscience is on an entirely different level. If you have an all knowing ability to see everything that will happen, we aren't talking about knowing a general conclusion that could be reached one way or another. (Such as not leaving your room which could be due to multiple factors in your example). We're talking about the perfect knowledge of every element in the equation, specifically we're talking about the knowledge that PersonX will decide not to leave his room, as well as the exact thought process that lead to that decision. If you change your mind, then god <b>knows</b> you were going to change your mind, such that every decision and thought process is predetermined. Otherwise the claim of being able to see all that will occur is false.
I have said it before, and i will say it again. You have a choice. It was a consious decision on your part to post that reply, it was a consious decision on my part to post this reply.
But anyway, it doesnt matter.
You dont believe in God do you? He has no control over you whatsoever.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have said it before, and i will say it again. You have a choice. It was a consious decision on your part to post that reply, it was a consious decision on my part to post this reply. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if i were created by an all powerful, infallible deity who has complete knowledge over everything that will ever occur, my choices in respect to posting were:
Doing exactly what deityX knows i will do
OR
Doing exactly what deityX knows i will do
If you can call that choice, good for you. Realise that in order for omniscience to be possible, every single element in the universe right down to your pattern of thought has to be reducable to predicatable rules. Meaning right from the moment of creation, everything that occurs right down to what you are thinking right now was fated to occur. And by repeating the same exact creation an unlimited number of times, we would still arrive at this same point, arguing over free will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You dont believe in God do you? He has no control over you whatsoever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since we're arguing logically, i hardly see why my beliefs are relevant at all. I have presented the hypothetical situation of an omniscient creator, and argued that in such a situation, free will would not exist. Belief is not an issue.
Comments
Starting new evolution topic. Get back on track! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, saved Marine01/Me/Some Mod/ect. the trouble.
Cain found a wife. where from? i dont know <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The bible tends to not mention things because for the time of its conception the explanations given were satisfactory for a - by our standards - primitive people.
Think about it, don't know about the rest of the world out there ? That explains why a local flood is deemed to be global. Or how Noah can take two of every living animal when you don't know about the millions that are elsewhere.
If your society isn't advanced enough to understand genetic problems coming from Adam and Eve being the 'father and mother' of us all then of course it seems like a perfectly logical explanation for how we came to be. Cain found a wife - if memory serves - from the land of Nod or some such.
You still believe in a book that omits critical details ? If God created 20 men and women or whatever number takes your fancy then why not just say so ? Maybe someone decided to edit the original story at a later date to add in the whole 'Nod' angle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Noah took two kinds of every animal, meaning he took two dogs, and NOT two german sheperds, two border collies, two cocker spaniels, two great danes.
The world before the flood was indeed much different from todays world. Possibly quite similar to Gondwanaland or whatever it is called. And much of the continental shifting ensued during this flood.
Could it be that Adam and Eve were inhererently genetically rich. They may have had a much more diverse gene pool. which is why God permitted the relations with brothers and sisters. This was later 'outlawed' in Leviticus. This is believed to be because the population was such that this was not necessary and the gene pool had significantly broken down into the various pools that in continuing to do so would result in the genetic problems people would have today.
As for evolution, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that we have indeed a young earth.
For example, most of you know well that the moon affects the earths oceans bringing them into a football shape to give us the tides. Because of this, the length of the earth's day increases by 0.02 seconds each century. If you go back a couple of billion years then it turns into a very short earth day. --> Actually I forgot where I was going with this one, maybe it will come back to me, and I will edit it or someone will post something against it and I will remember why it is a good point.
Another is the amount of salt contained in the ocean, If there was none to begin with and you subtract the adding the salt that gets added each year. Then the earth is not even close to half a billion years old. I forget the figures for this.
I am sorry this is not more of an organised argument. but it is late and I will be willing to try and back these up for those that need it .
Creation is the only logical explanation of how things came to be,
Why is evolution so prevalent, because it appears to be the 'best' theory that doesn't attribute anything to God.
Quatro <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And from those two dogs came all the variations of dog that we now have in how many years again ?
Continental shifting, everyone seems to disagree on the age of the Earth based on this. In fact almost every single dating method seems to be debated. All I can is that in recent (now that we've been observing this phenomenon) times, this drift happens <b> very slowly </b>.
The fundamental problem with dating methods seems to be that we can't pin down a constant on which to base things.
I'm not sure how you can claim creation to be the only logical explanation, given fossil records of creatures that they wouldn't have had a clue existed in biblical times.
My point is that the Bible is written by a more primitive people, in a more primitive time. Woman created for man, woman tempting man.... hmmm...some gender bias there I think. God the "father" when logically mother would be more accurate. How was childbirth <b>ever supposed to be painless ? </b>. The design of a woman seems to indicate pain being inevitable...not to mention other female animals that go through a similar process...were they cursed by Adam and Eve as well ?
Only to a limited extent do the tonsils do this.
I've already thrashed Gibbering in Genesis over the appendix, don't make me bring out my stick again <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (I'm an immunologist incidently).
The appendix does not have an important function in the immune system, that is *fact*.
And incidently, Gibbering in Genesis is not a good source in these discussions. See previous threads for reasons why.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no evidence that Adam and Eve were less "evolved" then us. In fact, the contrary would seem to be true as they advanced in technology far faster then the supposed Neandrathal ever did.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For being completely inbred they did very well I feel <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Boggle
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aegeri pointed out that it is through genetic mutation that a breeding pair can produce so many varieties.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but there are 3 pairs of grandparents who are genetically distinct, and both males are genetically distinct from the females. Hence they are outbred.
Adam and Eve, and their children breeding would be INBRED, because the initial genetic similarity is too high, thus increasing the chance that chromosomes will stick together during meiosis.
In short, they would of had either a lot of birth defects (arising from random recombination leading to insertions/deletions) or their children had a high affinity for downs syndrome :/
Cain left and went wery far away and found a wife there. Its virtually impossible to have children when you are 100 miles away.
Cain left and went wery far away and found a wife there. Its virtually impossible to have children when you are 100 miles away. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is just a cop out.
So he found a random wife from nowhere O_o
Cain left and went wery far away and found a wife there. Its virtually impossible to have children when you are 100 miles away. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that is just a cop out.
So he found a random wife from nowhere O_o <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess God created Adam, Eve and a third woman. And that woman was tossed far away because God, surely being all knowing, knew in advance that he would boot A&E out of the paradise so he just created a third woman to keep them from inbreeding. Now I just wonder why God created paradise in the first place...
o_O
of course he did
of course he did <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why God even created paradise? What's the point? Also, if I remember correctly *flips bible* Okay, I'm translating from finish to english:
God: Who told you you are naked? Have you eaten from the tree, that I forbid you not to eat?
Man: Woman, who you gave me as an accompanion, gave me the fruit from that tree, and I ate it
God to woman: What have you done!
*God continues to rant*
He seems rather surprised there. Why is he pretending to be surprised if he really is not? Why did he allow Adam to eat the fruit? Either he is not omiscient or he is a dumb****(see? I can put things delicately too <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->).
Also I read that God rested on the seventh day. If he is almighty, why he has to rest? If one must rest, then there is also something he can't do. There is a limit to his strength.
Why is God surprised? He was just asking questions. Its like the parent asking the childs who ate all the chocolate when they child has a big chocolate mess round his mouth.
Why did God allow adam to eat the fruit? Because Adam had free will. There is no point having free will if you can only do right. there has to be the opportunity of doing wrong, otherwise it is not free will. If you cannot choose (between doing right and doing wrong) you dont have free will
God rested on the seventh day because he was finished.
If you have an important project to hand in and you get it done on time, you dont carry on working on it do you?
God rested on the seventh day because he was finished.
If you have an important project to hand in and you get it done on time, you dont carry on working on it do you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seizing to work and resting are two completely different things. Resting happens after you've worked hard. Creating a stone and creating a world should be equally hard tasks to perfect being, that has no limits.
And if you know your kid is going to steal, say a lollipop from a store, you're not going to let him I assume. You didn't answer my question: why God created paradise in the first place, if he knew A&E would eat the fruit? Why didn't he make us somehow different...better. Why didn't he just destroy Morning Star?
Edit: and how can you say I have a free will if God knows in advance what I'm going to do? Even before God created heaven and hell, he knew where I would go after I die? Now if he is all powerful and wants us to stay close to him, why didn't he just create a tighter bond between man and himself, so that we couldn't ever deny his existance?
If i knew my kid was going to steal a lollipop from the store, i would tell him that stealing is wrong and that i will punish him if he did steal something.
God is something nobody can understand.
If you offer a child a chocolate, you know they will say yes, but they still have a choice. (dont be nitpicky please)
God is everywhere, even outside time and space. He can see what is going to happen in the future, things in the past ar happening right now for him
You have free will because God does not force you to do something. He knows what you will do, <i>but it is still your choice</i> If you know your friend is going to go to the cinema, and you leave him alone, he still chooses to go. Just because you knew he would go doesnt mean he didnt have a choice
If i knew my kid was going to steal a lollipop from the store, i would tell him that stealing is wrong and that i will punish him if he did steal something. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know that your kid is still going steal, even if you say that stealing is wrong. Now God knew that even if he said "Don't take the fruit" he knew Adam was going to eat the fruit.
Free will and god being omiscient collide here.
God told adam not to eat the fruit, he knew he would, Adam ate the fruit. how does his omniscience and free will collide?
Adam still chose. its his choice
Now what's the point in giving me a free will and then observing, punishing and rewarding me for what I, his own creation, will do even though he knows that in advance? Just...what's the point? If he really just wants us to worship him, he could have made that happen, yet he decides to punish me for his own doings. He could have just NOT let me born and thus I wouldn't go to hell. He knows I'm going to go there but he decides to let me suffer.
One more time I ask, what's the point? Why he wants me to suffer? He created me, he knew before he did that I would go to hell. But he wants me to suffer eternally anyway?
Gee, thanks God. You're too kind.
Edit: So basically God could have given us the free will AND mmake it so that we won't take the fruit.
"I think I'm going to create a world now. I think I'm going to make humans so that they will steal from me so I kick them out of the paradise"
As opposed to
"I think I'm going to create humans so that they have free will but they aren't evil so I can live with them in peace and harmony forever"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think I'm going to create humans so that they have free will but they aren't evil so I can live with them in peace and harmony forever"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was the plan, but humans messed it up
There are three will of God. the will of command - telling us what to do - the ten commandments.
The will of want - this part of go dwants everyone to love him and go to be with him when they die
The will of decree - God has set out what will happen. He may not want it to happen that way, but that is the way he set it out, so it will happen
No, god messed it up. Don't you get it, we don't have free will. It's not free will if God already knows what is going to happen. There is no 'choice' between good and evil if God knows what I'm going to choose and there is nothing that can change that. He won't stop me if I choose to go to hell but how can I choose anymore if God knows what that will be? Now we are talking about unchangable destiny. Why God allowed me to born if he knew I would go to hell? Try to understand, there is no choice for me. That choice has been made long before I was born, so the real question is why did he create me in the first place? Would you buy a kitten even though you'd know that it would die as soon as you buy it, because of you. It wouldn't die if wouldn't buy it, so why would you buy it? There is not 0,00001% chance that it would live, so why would you buy it?
God gave us everything, and we threw it back at him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->why did he create me in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a question only God can answer, but i would guess that he created you so you could love him
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would you buy a kitten even though you'd know that it would die as soon as you buy it, because of you. It wouldn't die if wouldn't buy it, so why would you buy it? There is not 0,00001% chance that it would live, so why would you buy it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, i would choose not to buy it. I dont see how this relates to the topic. I see that the kitten will die, so i decide not to buy it. I still have a choice as to whether i buy it or not.
God knows what you are going to do, but he doesnt tell you what you are going to do, therefore <b>You Still Choose</b>
God knows I'm going to hell and yet he decides to create me.
You know the kitten is going to die and suffer so you won't buy it.
Hence you are more mercifull than God.
From Gods point of view, creating you may have been essential for the survival of the human race. You may discover a way to stop a global killer for instance, we dont know
I am not more merciful than God in buying the kitten. because nobody knows why he created you.
If you could see what would happen if God didn't create you,, only then could you decide if your existance is a good thing or not
Then again, if it's all just random, it's just lottery. Other people get different personalities and different parents. Now God is punishing me for having bad luck?
Edit: We should continue our dialog tomorrow. I'm going to bed.
I am sceptical, but not of christianity.
Each of us has a personality, God designed each of us individually, people change. I used to be very gullible (believing in everything) I have since changed and now think a lot more about things
Since when was hell a punishment? Its a consequence. We bring those upon ourselves btw
good night
But then again, since when was God supposed to be fair anyway. His doing things only to please himself. That's the nature of the universe.
What makes you think you knwo better than God? How can you question him?
Why doesnt everybody have an equal chance?
If you believe anything -even a deity- is capable of being 'all knowing'. In the sense that they see everything that will happen and can effectively predict the future. Then this automatically implies predetermination, or some form of fate.
The concept of free will, and the concept of a creator who knows everything that will happen are not compatable. You can't say "Well PersonX could have chosen to accept jesus and go to heaven, but didn't" - because in order for god to know before hand that PersonX would definately end up in hell, the outcome must have been predetermined.
As a side note, you could also argue that any being that has complete knowledge of all that will occur in a system, must not be capable of influencing the system past its creation, or not have free will itself. Otherwise it would be capable of changing its mind and altering part of the system later down the line, which would make its supposedly 'all-knowing' prediction false. Either this being is capable of perfectly predicting everything that can happen, but incapable of altering the system later down the line. Or the being is capable of knowing all, and altering the system, but incapable of changing its mind. If the being is capable of both influencing the system after its creation, and changing its mind later on, then it cannot be capable of predicting exactly what will happen in the future.
The additional point is, if a deity is all powerful and all knowing, when he creates a system he effectively pre-determines everything that will happen in it. In the case of a christian god, it can be said that the god must have known, prior to ever creating adam, that a creation of that sort would defy him and eat from the tree of knowledge (or whatever). Assuming this god is all powerful, there is no reason he could not have created an Adam which would not defy him, however the Adam that was created, was pre-determined to fall from eden. By that logic, everything that occurs on earth would be the pre-determined will of god. It becomes rather odd to consider the idea of this god punishing his creations for acts that they were predetermined to commit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are three will of God. the will of command - telling us what to do - the ten commandments.
The will of want - this part of go dwants everyone to love him and go to be with him when they die
The will of decree - God has set out what will happen. He may not want it to happen that way, but that is the way he set it out, so it will happen
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That explains how omniscience and evil can co-exist.
I did hope i wouldnt have to say this, but let me resort to AS level Philosophy.
Lets say you are lying in bed, and you decide not to go outside today. You have made a <b>choice</b> not to go outside. Now, if i told you that the door was locked and you couldnt go outside, it doesnt subtract from the fact that you made the <b>decision</b> not to go outside.
Its like that with us and God. God knows that the door is locked, but he doesnt tell us, so the decision to stay inside is our <b>choice</b>
If you and a freind were arguing and you say something your freind knew you would say, he would say "i knew you were going to say that." It doesnt matter if he knew or not, you consiously made a decision to say what you did.
I know this isnt going to make the slightest bit of difference to you, infact i doubt you will even bother reading it. For the record, i feel that that explains your major questions, so from now on, i will probably just quote this post. Unless you have any further issues, im going to play some online games.
Have a good day
Have you actually read the thread, or did you just look at the last reply?
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Just because every other post isnt mine doesn't mean i haven't read the thread, thankyou.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
That explains how omniscience and evil can co-exist.
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Lovely, however this wasn't the point i was addressing, i never used the word evil. Infact i don't even believe in the concept. The current debating point was the co-existance of omniscience and free will. Which your quote doesn't address at all. (I'd also probably argue that it doesn't explain how omniscience co-exists with 'evil' anyway, but i'll leave that for someone else to cover)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Lets say you are lying in bed, and you decide not to go outside today. You have made a <b>choice</b> not to go outside. Now, if i told you that the door was locked and you couldnt go outside, it doesnt subtract from the fact that you made the <b>decision</b> not to go outside.
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Sorry but this example isnt applicable, omniscience is on an entirely different level. If you have an all knowing ability to see everything that will happen, we aren't talking about knowing a general conclusion that could be reached one way or another. (Such as not leaving your room which could be due to multiple factors in your example). We're talking about the perfect knowledge of every element in the equation, specifically we're talking about the knowledge that PersonX will decide not to leave his room, as well as the exact thought process that lead to that decision. If you change your mind, then god <b>knows</b> you were going to change your mind, such that every decision and thought process is predetermined. Otherwise the claim of being able to see all that will occur is false.
You have a choice. It was a consious decision on your part to post that reply, it was a consious decision on my part to post this reply.
But anyway, it doesnt matter.
You dont believe in God do you? He has no control over you whatsoever.
I have said it before, and i will say it again.
You have a choice. It was a consious decision on your part to post that reply, it was a consious decision on my part to post this reply.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if i were created by an all powerful, infallible deity who has complete knowledge over everything that will ever occur, my choices in respect to posting were:
Doing exactly what deityX knows i will do
OR
Doing exactly what deityX knows i will do
If you can call that choice, good for you. Realise that in order for omniscience to be possible, every single element in the universe right down to your pattern of thought has to be reducable to predicatable rules. Meaning right from the moment of creation, everything that occurs right down to what you are thinking right now was fated to occur. And by repeating the same exact creation an unlimited number of times, we would still arrive at this same point, arguing over free will.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
You dont believe in God do you? He has no control over you whatsoever.
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Since we're arguing logically, i hardly see why my beliefs are relevant at all. I have presented the hypothetical situation of an omniscient creator, and argued that in such a situation, free will would not exist. Belief is not an issue.