If earthquakes and typhoons are punishment for our sins, shouldn't we just...take them like a man(or woman)? I mean why do you hide in to your cellar from gods punishment when you hear a tornado warning? Or why do you go to hospital to get better from sickness? Hey, it's just god punishing you, and if he decides you must live, he lets you live. If he decides you must die, then he allows you to die. You shouldn't go to hospital for that.
Or is this one of those "I believe in god but <b>IMO</b> I don't have to do that"
I don't have anything againts hardcore believers, they have their reasons. How ever I don't really like the way most of christians decide themselves what they should do and what not. They are only half-believers. "I do that but not that". And then they come up with some excuse why they shouldn't do something that sucks, but is in bible. You either believe, or don't believe. But what you shouldn't do, is follow your holy book as long as it's convinient. When it gets boring/harmfull, people start thinking of explanations and excuses. Even they know deep in side that they are not doing all they could, and that their explanations are not good ones.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Oct 1 2003, 01:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Oct 1 2003, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If earthquakes and typhoons are punishment for our sins, shouldn't we just...take them like a man(or woman)? I mean why do you hide in to your cellar from gods punishment when you hear a tornado warning? Or why do you go to hospital to get better from sickness? Hey, it's just god punishing you, and if he decides you must live, he lets you live. If he decides you must die, then he allows you to die. You shouldn't go to hospital for that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thats because you dont want to die
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note of sarcasm, so if I sin, God is going to cripple me for life, disfigure me and my children, then strike me down with cancer? If God loved me and punished me like this so that I would change, I would not call that love, but unfair justice that wasn't exacted to his "freedom-of-choice" policy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, i've been thinking about this.
If you dont punish a child when he does something wrong, he ends up a spoilt brat, but he eventually gets what he deserves. When you do something wrong, God doesnt punish you, he just ignores you and lets you live your life how you want. he has, after all, given you free will, and he will not (under no circumstances) remove that. Like every spoilt brat, you will get your just deserves - you will go to hell. If you didnt, it would be unfair (and God is not unfair) on the people who lived thier entire lives for God.
for example, like you and your brother. Your brother is never doing what your parents tell him, always rebelling and ignoring them. He is even worse at school. You, on the other hand are the perfect child. You always do what you are asked when you are asked, you always offer to help, you get good grades at school. Your parents treat you exactly the same. whenever you get rewarded for doing something well, he does not get punished, he gets the same reward, even though, just a minutes earlier, he was swearing at them.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Oct 1 2003, 01:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Oct 1 2003, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If earthquakes and typhoons are punishment for our sins, shouldn't we just...take them like a man(or woman)? I mean why do you hide in to your cellar from gods punishment when you hear a tornado warning? Or why do you go to hospital to get better from sickness? Hey, it's just god punishing you, and if he decides you must live, he lets you live. If he decides you must die, then he allows you to die. You shouldn't go to hospital for that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thats because you dont want to die <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought God alone decides who lives and who dies. Why fight back?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> for example, like you and your brother. Your brother is never doing what your parents tell him, always rebelling and ignoring them. He is even worse at school. You, on the other hand are the perfect child. You always do what you are asked when you are asked, you always offer to help, you get good grades at school. Your parents treat you exactly the same. whenever you get rewarded for doing something well, he does not get punished, he gets the same reward, even though, just a minutes earlier, he was swearing at them.
how fair is that?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly.
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 3 2003, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 3 2003, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> for example, like you and your brother. Your brother is never doing what your parents tell him, always rebelling and ignoring them. He is even worse at school. You, on the other hand are the perfect child. You always do what you are asked when you are asked, you always offer to help, you get good grades at school. Your parents treat you exactly the same. whenever you get rewarded for doing something well, he does not get punished, he gets the same reward, even though, just a minutes earlier, he was swearing at them.
how fair is that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What are you to tell what is right and what is wrong? He's a perfect god so he must be doing a right thing, because he is perfect. Now try to break that circulating logic! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are making a classic mistake though (which I have continued to make for almost 30 years) - you are trying to argue logically with someone who believes (IMO) in myths. Just the same as if you tried to argue with a crazy person at a bus stop, you are not going to un-convince a deeply religious person that an invisible man lives in the sky, sees all they do, and controls their lives. That's why all these religious threads we have here are almost completely pointless...
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Oct 3 2003, 07:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Oct 3 2003, 07:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Speaking of the impending Apocalypse, I agree wholeheartedly with Dread on every one of his points.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Gentlemen, hell has just frozen over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are making a classic mistake though (which I have continued to make for almost 30 years) - you are trying to argue logically with someone who believes (IMO) in myths. Just the same as if you tried to argue with a crazy person at a bus stop, you are not going to un-convince a deeply religious person that an invisible man lives in the sky, sees all they do, and controls their lives. That's why all these religious threads we have here are almost completely pointless...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me about it. Like I said before: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why discussions on religions are usually pointless. No one can convince the other side to change his opinion anyway. We are debating because it's, supposedly, fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We like to smack our heads to the wall. Now do you have a problem with that? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
i pointed this out absolutely ages ago, and was shot down in flames saying "OMG THIS IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION FORUMS ARE FOR", and suddenly, when MonsE says it, everybody agrees with him
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair
I know this is kind of pessimistic, but I think there is evil in the world to keep life interesting and to show that people and souls are flawed. Thats what I think.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i pointed this out absolutely ages ago, and was shot down in flames saying "OMG THIS IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION FORUMS ARE FOR", and suddenly, when MonsE says it, everybody agrees with him
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Leni Riefenstahl the woman responsible for the Third Reichs propaganda films that portrayed the Nazi's as a rightous, peacful, and tolerant, lived to be 101. John Ritter died of a freak heart condition at 54.
Yah bad people never get rewarded.....
And I for one think logic should win over faith in an argument, because by defintion an argument has to be logical for it to be effective, so in essence if someone refuses to argue with you logically you can dismiss their points and declare your self the winner of the argument : P
I mean if someone tries to argue that the sky is made out of marshmellows and you present them with all these scientific facts that it isn't, can they still claim it is and have a valid point? Well what if they are talking about something we can't see or test scientifically, they could tell me a planet in the Crab galaxy is made entirely out of Lego blocks, and I couldn't prove them wrong, but I'd be pretty sure they were.
And also before you go claiming ownership over the logical vs. illogical argument idea I'm pretty sure Socrates might have had a little something to say on the subject.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i pointed this out absolutely ages ago, and was shot down in flames saying "OMG THIS IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION FORUMS ARE FOR", and suddenly, when MonsE says it, everybody agrees with him
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps not, but eternal punishment surely is not fair either.
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 4 2003, 03:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 4 2003, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 04:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i pointed this out absolutely ages ago, and was shot down in flames saying "OMG THIS IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION FORUMS ARE FOR", and suddenly, when MonsE says it, everybody agrees with him
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? " A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps not, but eternal punishment surely is not fair either. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> you call it punishment, i call it a consequnce. You ignore God for as long as you can, he ignores you for as long as he can. you choose to live your life without God, you can live your after life without God to.
If i tell you not to stand infront of a speeding train, and you go and stand in front of a speeding train and spend the rest of your life in trmendous pain paralysed from the neck down, its not my fault. If God tells you to love him and live your life for him, and you dont, its not his fault. Its not God's fault you go to hell, its your fault. God says "you dont want me? thats fine. I dont want you either."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leni Riefenstahl the woman responsible for the Third Reichs propaganda films that portrayed the Nazi's as a rightous, peacful, and tolerant, lived to be 101. John Ritter died of a freak heart condition at 54. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is living to 101 a reward, and who is John Ritter. I take it from you argument that he was a good guy? My Grandfather died recently from a heart attack. he was 80, and, just finished watching the snooker and was going upstairs to turn the electric blanket on. We all knew he was in a bit of a bad shape, but he died so suddenly, nobody was expecting it. Why am i telling you this? Because i dont want to live until i am 101. how is that good? Your quality of life is minimal, you cant do anything (my great gran lived to be 100, i know what it's like) You get put in a stuffy nursing home where everybody ignores you. you cant go out, you are just stuck with daytime tv. How is that a reward?
Everybody has got to die at some point. 100 years on earth is nothing compared to an eternity in hell...
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 3 2003, 11:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 3 2003, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i pointed this out absolutely ages ago, and was shot down in flames saying "OMG THIS IS WHAT THE DISCUSSION FORUMS ARE FOR", and suddenly, when MonsE says it, everybody agrees with him
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If by everybody you mean me, then MonsE actually agreed with me. Not vice versa. So don't accuse anybody of being brownnose. Especially when nobody even wants to be MonsE's brownnoser *shrugs* <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now as you bravely continue debating, I'd hope you would answer question I made earlier: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I thought God alone decides who lives and who dies. Why fight back?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
do you want to die? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your faith, which you emphasize a lot, should overcome your instincts for survival. Go lying down in the highway and see if God wants you dead. No? You won't do that because <i>God doesn't decide who dies and who lives</i>. If he would, people wouldn't have control over their lives. If I decide to shoot myself, God won't or can't stop me. Now that's a fact. This mean basically just that God doesn't do the evil things in world. God doesn't kill anyone(which also makes me believe that God doesn't affect birth either). God just watches...or doesn't exist. So he doesn't affect our lives in anyway, he just allows bad stuff to happen. And now we can ask: why? Because of Adam and Eve? They didn't even exist. And why am I being punished for the actions of A&E anyway? God gave us free will and A&E used it thw wrong way. Does that mean that every human would do that? Why did God throw us out of the paradise?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 4 2003, 04:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 4 2003, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you call it punishment, i call it a consequnce. You ignore God for as long as you can, he ignores you for as long as he can. you choose to live your life without God, you can live your after life without God to.
If i tell you not to stand infront of a speeding train, and you go and stand in front of a speeding train and spend the rest of your life in trmendous pain paralysed from the neck down, its not my fault. If God tells you to love him and live your life for him, and you dont, its not his fault. Its not God's fault you go to hell, its your fault. God says "you dont want me? thats fine. I dont want you either."
How is living to 101 a reward, and who is John Ritter... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?
You then go on to draw a parallel between you telling someone not to do something (standing in front of a train) and God telling someone not to do something. The problem is that when we talk about "God telling" this is essentialy a euphemism for some person telling you something claiming to be of God; or you reading some religious text telling you God's supposed will. Both of these are rather dodgy in terms of credibility.
Assuming that what you claim is true though. If God says "you don't want me? thats fine. I dont want you either" then what makes him any better than us ? Would you claim someone to be a perfect parent here on Earth if that's the attitude they take towards a misbehaving child ? I don't see perfect love or divinity here at all.
As for living to be 101... Tai-chi, Yoga, Pilates...keep any of those up and I think you'll be surprised at what people can do at 101.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Oct 4 2003, 12:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Oct 4 2003, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your faith, which you emphasize a lot, should overcome your instincts for survival. Go lying down in the highway and see if God wants you dead. No? You won't do that because <i>God doesn't decide who dies and who lives</i>. If he would, people wouldn't have control over their lives. If I decide to shoot myself, God won't or can't stop me. Now that's a fact. This mean basically just that God doesn't do the evil things in world. God doesn't kill anyone(which also makes me believe that God doesn't affect birth either). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You raise a valid point. Does God say if we live or die. (warning, bad analogy, dont try to pick holes in it, just read it) in an RPG, such as the Ariadne Guardpost series, the DM (in this case Xect) is God. You can say *I jump inftont of the rtrain to puch the little boy out of the way* (your choice) and the DM will say either *you miss the boy and dive across the tracks, but you break your ankles as the train hits them* or he might say *you hit the boy, he is knocked clear, you fall down onto the tracks and the train cuts your head off* [/bad analogy] See what i mean?<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>probably not, but, who cares?</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of Adam and Eve? They didn't even exist. And why am I being punished for the actions of A&E anyway? God gave us free will and A&E used it thw wrong way. Does that mean that every human would do that? Why did God throw us out of the paradise?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Prove it
You CANT. <b>Saying God does not exist is just as much a statement of faith as saying he does.</b>
Im not the only one arguing on the basis of faith here, we all are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(filthy larry)Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(skulkbait)Thus we have killed God's perfect love. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because God is pure and holy, he cannot tolerate evil. He hates it. [bad analogy] Its like light and darkness. Where there is light, there cannot be darkness. where there is darkness, there cannot be light [/bad analogy]
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(filthy larry)Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem.
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 5 2003, 05:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(filthy larry)Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> how do you know what the perfect parent is?
ok, from our pov, a God who abandons people simple because they choose one way over the other seems unfair, and downright evil. i wont pretend to understand, i dont know any other reason, it simply comes down to my belief that God is perfectly fair, and has a good reason for everything.
let me think about this.
Lets say that while you are alive, you are a child. when you die, you become an adult and move away from home. When you are a child, your "perfect" parents teach you and guide you, when you move away, they (hopefully) let you do your own thing, hoping that you took notice of what they told you It is in your childhood that you shape your adulthood, its very difficult, virtually impossible to change when you are an adult. Now lets compare this to God. When you are alive, he teaches and guides you through your conscience. It is during this time that you decide what to do when you become an adult (die). God, like every perfect parent, loves his children and hopes that they will all stay on the right path (go to heaven) He also realises, like every person with an ounce of intelligence, that not every child will grow up to be a perfect adult. (some will go to hell)
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Oct 5 2003, 05:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Oct 5 2003, 05:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 5 2003, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(filthy larry)Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how do you know what the perfect parent is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you know what love is ? The bible itself describes love.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, from our pov, a God who abandons people simple because they choose one way over the other seems unfair, and downright evil. i wont pretend to understand, i dont know any other reason, it simply comes down to my belief that God is perfectly fair, and has a good reason for everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with your belief, but I can respect it at least. Thank you for your honesty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> let me think about this.
Lets say that while you are alive, you are a child. when you die, you become an adult and move away from home. When you are a child, your "perfect" parents teach you and guide you, when you move away, they (hopefully) let you do your own thing, hoping that you took notice of what they told you It is in your childhood that you shape your adulthood, its very difficult, virtually impossible to change when you are an adult. Now lets compare this to God. When you are alive, he teaches and guides you through your conscience. It is during this time that you decide what to do when you become an adult (die). God, like every perfect parent, loves his children and hopes that they will all stay on the right path (go to heaven) He also realises, like every person with an ounce of intelligence, that not every child will grow up to be a perfect adult. (some will go to hell) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that rarely are things black and white in the world. What about someone who is mentally ill and doesn't have a conscience as we would understand the term ? What about someone raised since birth in a different religion ? What about someone who never hears the "good news" ? What about...
You can say that you hope God makes exceptions sometimes...but to my knowledge that is not known for a fact right ? So in (if) hoping this you are automatically applying your standards of "fair" just as I am applying my standards of "parenting". If we can't apply any of our own standards to God then how can we claim to know anything about him ? How does he love ? How does he hate ? etc.
Because God is pure and holy, he cannot tolerate evil. He hates it. [bad analogy] Its like light and darkness. Where there is light, there cannot be darkness. where there is darkness, there cannot be light [/bad analogy] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So God cannot love his creation Man. A parent loves their child unconditionally, yert God does not.
Prove it <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not here to prove that. I'm not even saying that I think he doesn't exist. I only gave you two options: He doesn't exist or he only watches. Your pick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Prove it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not here to prove that. I'm not even saying that I think he doesn't exist. I only gave you two options: He doesn't exist or he only watches. Your pick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> and the third option?
what happened to that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Okay, you are not my relative. Hows that for evidence? 6 billion people didn't all come from Eve. Now that is a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your source? any particular scientfic paper on it? have you got any quotes? a link perhaps?
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 5 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 5 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> your source? any particular scientfic paper on it? have you got any quotes? a link perhaps? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> closely genetic people cause inbreeding defects. Now if the children of A&E would have humped only each other, it would have done pretty bad for their childrens genes. Pharaos in ancient Egypt were only allowed to have other high-class princess' etc. as their wife. Now because they were all relatives to each other, caused that, that their children didn't have the right variety of genes. So basically they went mad and often had all kinds of illnesses.
Pop Q: wonder why hillbillies are often retards? Answer: inbreeding
If now everyone but 2 humans would be killed, they wouldn't be able to start a new world. The lack of genetical variety would make that impossible.
Do we also have to prove that Hercules never existed? I guess we can't count on some people to use reason in their faith. I'm not sure if you can call what most religious people on this forum are showing faith. It is more like a pathetic clinging to a form of belief that defies reason because reason isn't in the belief.
Faith isn't about evidence or logic (or whatever logic you make up to support your belief), it is just simply faith.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dread+Oct 5 2003, 09:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dread @ Oct 5 2003, 09:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 5 2003, 08:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 5 2003, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> your source? any particular scientfic paper on it? have you got any quotes? a link perhaps? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> closely genetic people cause inbreeding defects. <b>Now if the children of A&E would have humped only each other</b>, it would have done pretty bad for their childrens genes. Pharaos in ancient Egypt were only allowed to have other high-class princess' etc. as their wife. Now because they were all relatives to each other, caused that, that their children didn't have the right variety of genes. So basically they went mad and often had all kinds of illnesses.
Pop Q: wonder why hillbillies are often retards? Answer: inbreeding
If now everyone but 2 humans would be killed, they wouldn't be able to start a new world. The lack of genetical variety would make that impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> there we go again. making statements that you cannot back up with evidence. It may be hypothetical, but you have based your whole case on that one sentance
If the children did only hump each other, where is your proof?. if they didn't, your whole argument crumbles.
I dont think you want your argument to crumble, so, where is your proof. Thats what this is all about after all isnt it? If faith and belief have to be ruled out because of their lack of proof, every statemnt made must be backed up with evidence.
Wow! This has turned into a fiery and passionate debate. By the looks of it, I would say that Bogglesteinsky is getting ganged up. Time for Kida to step in! Our hero has come, dadadadada!~
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that rarely are things black and white in the world. What about someone who is mentally ill and doesn't have a conscience as we would understand the term ? What about someone raised since birth in a different religion ? What about someone who never hears the "good news" ? What about...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One word Larry: reality. And as sad as that may seem, it is the truth, have no doubt about that. The questions you ask cannot possibly be explained in logical, laymen terms. These questions can and are only answered by God, if you believe in him. Hoping that God is just in every way, perhaps these people will go to heaven under his mercy. I am sorry if the bible cannot answer every question of yours.
What is hell? What is heaven? Is it as simple as the bible portrays? There are many hints in the bible, don't quite know where, but they point to a heaven and hell that are more complicated than what they seem to be. A hell with fires of torment, eternal damnation, these are all vivid portrayals of a Hell, but not exact accounts of what is hell.
Supposing that there is no time in the afterlife and that things are not kept track of up "there," perhaps "eternal" isn't as bad as it seems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Larry, God didn't abandon us, we abandoned him. Life isn't about making one gigantic choice, which ultimately leads you to your destination. It is a continous process of decision making and whatnot. God just wants you to make it through to the end, and he is always there for you if and ever you call out to him for help (truly). God sticks with you to the end.
I believe God doesn't punish people directly during life. I wish he did, so that people would learn from their mistakes and ultimately make it "up there" and not "down there." But that is the price of ultimate freedom. It makes it that much harder to believe that God even exists, because he doesn't seem to play with us anymore. I believe life is a series of tests and if we pass them, we reap the rewards. The problem though is the question many of you raise. What happens to the people that don't pass the test of life? Since God is holy, he absolutely hates sin and cannot tolerate it. Sinners are not allowed into heaven, period. God is sovereign and will send people to hell to glorify himself, which may sound self centered, but really isn't, because it is for the better of mankind. By showing himself as sovereign, people will understand that God is God, and God is glorified. We follow moral laws, supposing that most people do, these laws are binded to us in every way. We sin and therefore "fall short of the glory of God." God came down to Earth in Jesus, because he loved us so much. Eternal salvation is a free gift and all you have to do is grab at it. We don't have to be perfect in order to go into heaven anymore, because Jesus paid for ALL sin.
Now another big question. If God is all-loving, why does he send people to hell? A lot of that is answered in the above. God is love, but he cannot love those who "go to hell," or should I say, "are in hell." Sorry to say, but that is the straight truth. It may sound unloving of him, but it is part of God's character to do what is just and right. Although Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, and although we shouldn't deserve to be in the sin that Adam and Eve are in, it is in every aspect part of God's perfect plan to glorify himself. Sounds a bit self-centered again, but it truly isn't, because in glorifying himself, those who believe in him are therefore glorified.
I know this sounds all smush smush, but to tell you the truth, larry and others, God is sovereign. He can be angry in a just way. I cannot really logically explain this further, supposing that I even explained the things I mentioned, on other than faith, reason. Because we cannot see God, we can "only" believe in him through faith, not reason. This should be the conclusion of the thread. Faith and reason do not mix, therefore it is fruitless to argue.
As for myself, I believe in God based on faith and reason. A view that is deistic, but not quite in the "sense." I believe that God created the Universe as reason simply points to, because there is no other easy reason to point out to other than of God. This belief that God created the universe follows deism in that God left the universe as it is. But the other part that that I mentioned above is that in order to establish a good relationship with God and ultmately come to a hundred percent conformation with him and his sovereign actions, one must have faith that challenges the test of time and in the end, life. For God created us, giving us freedom, so that we may freely believe in him. This universe that he created, are all works that inturn, glorifly him. For we can see and feel it everywhere. God is real, because I can see him everywhere. In mathematics, in space, and whatnot. God is there and always has been. This is my base of belief, because we cannot explain the origin of things, God created it. It fits; it confuses; it doesn't match in color.
Oh, and I am sorry if I specifically refered to you or tried to explain God with faith or reason. The conclusion that I bring is somewhat opposite of what this thread was designed for. But as you can see, it has kind of turned into a debate of faith and reason. But carry on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One word Larry: reality. And as sad as that may seem, it is the truth, have no doubt about that. The questions you ask cannot possibly be explained in logical, laymen terms. These questions can and are only answered by God, if you believe in him. Hoping that God is just in every way, perhaps these people will go to heaven under his mercy. I am sorry if the bible cannot answer every question of yours. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Faith based reasoning (addmittedly so even), no real place here. Sorry.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What is hell? What is heaven? Is it as simple as the bible portrays? There are many hints in the bible, don't quite know where, but they point to a heaven and hell that are more complicated than what they seem to be. A hell with fires of torment, eternal damnation, these are all vivid portrayals of a Hell, but not exact accounts of what is hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, we havent agreed on a version of hell for which to base arguments on. But certainly Hell is portraid as a place of eternal suffering, so it really doesn't matter exactly how the suffering takes place does it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Supposing that there is no time in the afterlife and that things are not kept track of up "there," perhaps "eternal" isn't as bad as it seems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.... what?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually Larry, God didn't abandon us, we abandoned him. Life isn't about making one gigantic choice, which ultimately leads you to your destination. It is a continous process of decision making and whatnot. God just wants you to make it through to the end, and he is always there for you if and ever you call out to him for help (truly). God sticks with you to the end, hopefully "you" will have chosen what is right by then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As it appears simply refusing to believe in God will result in being damned to hell. So apparently it is about making a choice, and then another choice (first that God exists, then choosing the right religion as christianity says [AFAIK] only christians are saved).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe God doesn't punish people directly during life. I wish he did, so that people would learn from their mistakes and ultimately make it "up there" and not "down there." But that is the price of ultimate freedom. It makes it that much harder to believe that God even exists, because he doesn't seem to play with us anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That brings up a good question, why not? According to the Bible there were times when God interefered with the universe, talked to some people, and smote others, why is this no longer true?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I believe life is a series of tests and if we pass them, we reap the rewards. The problem though is the question many of you raise. What happens to the people that don't pass the test of life? Since God is holy, he absolutely hates sin and cannot tolerate it. Sinners are not allowed into heaven, period. God is sovereign and will send people to hell to glorify himself, which may sound self centered, but really isn't, because it is for the better of mankind. By showing himself as sovereign, people will understand that God is God, and God is glorified. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Only people wont understand that God is God because no living person sees anybody going to hell, and it would be intuitively obvious to the dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We follow moral laws, supposing that most people do, these laws are binded to us in every way. We sin and therefore "fall short of the glory of God." God came down to Earth in Jesus, because he loved us so much. Eternal salvation is a free gift and all you have to do is grab at it. We don't have to be perfect in order to go into heaven anymore, because Jesus paid for ALL sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again you show that there really is only one important choice in life: Choose to believe in Jesus, or not. One will get you sent to hell, one won't.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now another big question. If God is all-loving, why does he send people to hell? A lot of that is answered in the above. God is love, but he cannot love those who "go to hell," or should I say, "are in hell." Sorry to say, but that is the straight truth. It may sound unloving of him, but it is part of God's character to do what is just and right. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What makes it so just and right? I suppose since its what God does it just is, circular logic is fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, and although we shouldn't deserve to be in the sin that Adam and Eve are in, it is in every aspect part of God's perfect plan to glorify himself. Sounds a bit self-centered again, but it truly isn't, because in glorifying himself, those who believe in him are therefore glorified. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So its unfair that we must pay for the sins of Adam & Eve, but thats OK because it glorifies the christians?
The rest of your post is mearly a declaration of beliefs and as such cannot be argued.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I am sorry if I specifically refered to you or tried to explain God with faith or reason. The conclusion that I bring is somewhat opposite of what this thread was designed for. But as you can see, it has kind of turned into a debate of faith and reason. But carry on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reason is fine. Faith exists contrary to reason, so it is not a valid base here, sorry.
EDIT: Recent argument with Euoplocephalus has prompted me to clarify this. You can use scripture to show why God allows evil to exist, or give a very very good reason why he should, you just can't say things like "God is perfect, so i'm sure that evil exists for a reason".
EDIT: This thread is getting a little off topic with the Adam & Eve thing. I can't remember if we discussed it alread in the Consistancy thread but that would be a good place to put it.
Comments
Or is this one of those "I believe in god but <b>IMO</b> I don't have to do that"
I don't have anything againts hardcore believers, they have their reasons. How ever I don't really like the way most of christians decide themselves what they should do and what not. They are only half-believers. "I do that but not that". And then they come up with some excuse why they shouldn't do something that sucks, but is in bible. You either believe, or don't believe. But what you shouldn't do, is follow your holy book as long as it's convinient. When it gets boring/harmfull, people start thinking of explanations and excuses. Even they know deep in side that they are not doing all they could, and that their explanations are not good ones.
I'm rambling again... <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
thats because you dont want to die
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note of sarcasm, so if I sin, God is going to cripple me for life, disfigure me and my children, then strike me down with cancer?
If God loved me and punished me like this so that I would change, I would not call that love, but unfair justice that wasn't exacted to his "freedom-of-choice" policy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok, i've been thinking about this.
If you dont punish a child when he does something wrong, he ends up a spoilt brat, but he eventually gets what he deserves. When you do something wrong, God doesnt punish you, he just ignores you and lets you live your life how you want. he has, after all, given you free will, and he will not (under no circumstances) remove that. Like every spoilt brat, you will get your just deserves - you will go to hell. If you didnt, it would be unfair (and God is not unfair) on the people who lived thier entire lives for God.
for example, like you and your brother. Your brother is never doing what your parents tell him, always rebelling and ignoring them. He is even worse at school. You, on the other hand are the perfect child. You always do what you are asked when you are asked, you always offer to help, you get good grades at school. Your parents treat you exactly the same. whenever you get rewarded for doing something well, he does not get punished, he gets the same reward, even though, just a minutes earlier, he was swearing at them.
how fair is that?
thats because you dont want to die <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought God alone decides who lives and who dies. Why fight back?
how fair is that?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly.
how fair is that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you to tell what is right and what is wrong? He's a perfect god so he must be doing a right thing, because he is perfect. Now try to break that circulating logic! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
You are making a classic mistake though (which I have continued to make for almost 30 years) - you are trying to argue logically with someone who believes (IMO) in myths. Just the same as if you tried to argue with a crazy person at a bus stop, you are not going to un-convince a deeply religious person that an invisible man lives in the sky, sees all they do, and controls their lives. That's why all these religious threads we have here are almost completely pointless...
Rant over, pray continue. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gentlemen, hell has just frozen over.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are making a classic mistake though (which I have continued to make for almost 30 years) - you are trying to argue logically with someone who believes (IMO) in myths. Just the same as if you tried to argue with a crazy person at a bus stop, you are not going to un-convince a deeply religious person that an invisible man lives in the sky, sees all they do, and controls their lives. That's why all these religious threads we have here are almost completely pointless...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me about it. Like I said before:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's why discussions on religions are usually pointless. No one can convince the other side to change his opinion anyway.
We are debating because it's, supposedly, fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We like to smack our heads to the wall. Now do you have a problem with that? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Leni Riefenstahl the woman responsible for the Third Reichs propaganda films that portrayed the Nazi's as a rightous, peacful, and tolerant, lived to be 101. John Ritter died of a freak heart condition at 54.
Yah bad people never get rewarded.....
And I for one think logic should win over faith in an argument, because by defintion an argument has to be logical for it to be effective, so in essence if someone refuses to argue with you logically you can dismiss their points and declare your self the winner of the argument : P
I mean if someone tries to argue that the sky is made out of marshmellows and you present them with all these scientific facts that it isn't, can they still claim it is and have a valid point? Well what if they are talking about something we can't see or test scientifically, they could tell me a planet in the Crab galaxy is made entirely out of Lego blocks, and I couldn't prove them wrong, but I'd be pretty sure they were.
And also before you go claiming ownership over the logical vs. illogical argument idea I'm pretty sure Socrates might have had a little something to say on the subject.
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps not, but eternal punishment surely is not fair either.
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is human nature to point out "but hey, this guy did x and I did y so howcome he gets the same reward ? "
A perfect God should be above this line of reasoning.
Parents in theory are supposed to love all their children equally right ? Even the ones that behave badly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But rewarding someone when they should be punished? Surely that is not fair <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps not, but eternal punishment surely is not fair either. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you call it punishment, i call it a consequnce. You ignore God for as long as you can, he ignores you for as long as he can. you choose to live your life without God, you can live your after life without God to.
If i tell you not to stand infront of a speeding train, and you go and stand in front of a speeding train and spend the rest of your life in trmendous pain paralysed from the neck down, its not my fault. If God tells you to love him and live your life for him, and you dont, its not his fault. Its not God's fault you go to hell, its your fault. God says "you dont want me? thats fine. I dont want you either."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Leni Riefenstahl the woman responsible for the Third Reichs propaganda films that portrayed the Nazi's as a rightous, peacful, and tolerant, lived to be 101. John Ritter died of a freak heart condition at 54.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is living to 101 a reward, and who is John Ritter. I take it from you argument that he was a good guy? My Grandfather died recently from a heart attack. he was 80, and, just finished watching the snooker and was going upstairs to turn the electric blanket on. We all knew he was in a bit of a bad shape, but he died so suddenly, nobody was expecting it. Why am i telling you this? Because i dont want to live until i am 101. how is that good? Your quality of life is minimal, you cant do anything (my great gran lived to be 100, i know what it's like) You get put in a stuffy nursing home where everybody ignores you. you cant go out, you are just stuck with daytime tv. How is that a reward?
Everybody has got to die at some point. 100 years on earth is nothing compared to an eternity in hell...
This discussion is pointless. You will never convince me and i will never convince you... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by everybody you mean me, then MonsE actually agreed with me. Not vice versa. So don't accuse anybody of being brownnose. Especially when nobody even wants to be MonsE's brownnoser *shrugs* <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now as you bravely continue debating, I'd hope you would answer question I made earlier:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I thought God alone decides who lives and who dies. Why fight back?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
instinct for survival
do you want to die?
instinct for survival
do you want to die? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your faith, which you emphasize a lot, should overcome your instincts for survival. Go lying down in the highway and see if God wants you dead. No? You won't do that because <i>God doesn't decide who dies and who lives</i>. If he would, people wouldn't have control over their lives. If I decide to shoot myself, God won't or can't stop me. Now that's a fact. This mean basically just that God doesn't do the evil things in world. God doesn't kill anyone(which also makes me believe that God doesn't affect birth either). God just watches...or doesn't exist. So he doesn't affect our lives in anyway, he just allows bad stuff to happen. And now we can ask: why? Because of Adam and Eve? They didn't even exist. And why am I being punished for the actions of A&E anyway? God gave us free will and A&E used it thw wrong way. Does that mean that every human would do that? Why did God throw us out of the paradise?
If i tell you not to stand infront of a speeding train, and you go and stand in front of a speeding train and spend the rest of your life in trmendous pain paralysed from the neck down, its not my fault. If God tells you to love him and live your life for him, and you dont, its not his fault. Its not God's fault you go to hell, its your fault. God says "you dont want me? thats fine. I dont want you either."
How is living to 101 a reward, and who is John Ritter... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?
You then go on to draw a parallel between you telling someone not to do something (standing in front of a train) and God telling someone not to do something. The problem is that when we talk about "God telling" this is essentialy a euphemism for some person telling you something claiming to be of God; or you reading some religious text telling you God's supposed will. Both of these are rather dodgy in terms of credibility.
Assuming that what you claim is true though. If God says "you don't want me? thats fine. I dont want you either" then what makes him any better than us ? Would you claim someone to be a perfect parent here on Earth if that's the attitude they take towards a misbehaving child ? I don't see perfect love or divinity here at all.
As for living to be 101... Tai-chi, Yoga, Pilates...keep any of those up and I think you'll be surprised at what people can do at 101.
Thus we have killed God's perfect love.
You raise a valid point. Does God say if we live or die. (warning, bad analogy, dont try to pick holes in it, just read it) in an RPG, such as the Ariadne Guardpost series, the DM (in this case Xect) is God. You can say *I jump inftont of the rtrain to puch the little boy out of the way* (your choice) and the DM will say either *you miss the boy and dive across the tracks, but you break your ankles as the train hits them* or he might say *you hit the boy, he is knocked clear, you fall down onto the tracks and the train cuts your head off* [/bad analogy] See what i mean?<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>probably not, but, who cares?</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God just watches...or doesn't exist<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God doesnt exist
Prove it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of Adam and Eve? They didn't even exist. And why am I being punished for the actions of A&E anyway? God gave us free will and A&E used it thw wrong way. Does that mean that every human would do that? Why did God throw us out of the paradise?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Prove it
You CANT. <b>Saying God does not exist is just as much a statement of faith as saying he does.</b>
Im not the only one arguing on the basis of faith here, we all are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(filthy larry)Well, your analogy was that of reward and punishment. You obviously see heaven as a reward right ? And all the poor slobs who don't qualify are then doomed to forever be ... punished ?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(skulkbait)Thus we have killed God's perfect love. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because God is pure and holy, he cannot tolerate evil. He hates it. [bad analogy] Its like light and darkness. Where there is light, there cannot be darkness. where there is darkness, there cannot be light [/bad analogy]
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem.
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
how do you know what the perfect parent is?
ok, from our pov, a God who abandons people simple because they choose one way over the other seems unfair, and downright evil. i wont pretend to understand, i dont know any other reason, it simply comes down to my belief that God is perfectly fair, and has a good reason for everything.
let me think about this.
Lets say that while you are alive, you are a child. when you die, you become an adult and move away from home. When you are a child, your "perfect" parents teach you and guide you, when you move away, they (hopefully) let you do your own thing, hoping that you took notice of what they told you It is in your childhood that you shape your adulthood, its very difficult, virtually impossible to change when you are an adult. Now lets compare this to God. When you are alive, he teaches and guides you through your conscience. It is during this time that you decide what to do when you become an adult (die). God, like every perfect parent, loves his children and hopes that they will all stay on the right path (go to heaven) He also realises, like every person with an ounce of intelligence, that not every child will grow up to be a perfect adult. (some will go to hell)
I see heaven and hell as destinations at the end of a journey. You choose to go left, you end up in one place, you choose to go right, you end up in the other. Your problem is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->how do you know what the perfect parent is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you know what love is ? The bible itself describes love.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok, from our pov, a God who abandons people simple because they choose one way over the other seems unfair, and downright evil. i wont pretend to understand, i dont know any other reason, it simply comes down to my belief that God is perfectly fair, and has a good reason for everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with your belief, but I can respect it at least. Thank you for your honesty.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
let me think about this.
Lets say that while you are alive, you are a child. when you die, you become an adult and move away from home. When you are a child, your "perfect" parents teach you and guide you, when you move away, they (hopefully) let you do your own thing, hoping that you took notice of what they told you It is in your childhood that you shape your adulthood, its very difficult, virtually impossible to change when you are an adult. Now lets compare this to God. When you are alive, he teaches and guides you through your conscience. It is during this time that you decide what to do when you become an adult (die). God, like every perfect parent, loves his children and hopes that they will all stay on the right path (go to heaven) He also realises, like every person with an ounce of intelligence, that not every child will grow up to be a perfect adult. (some will go to hell)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that rarely are things black and white in the world. What about someone who is mentally ill and doesn't have a conscience as we would understand the term ? What about someone raised since birth in a different religion ? What about someone who never hears the "good news" ? What about...
You can say that you hope God makes exceptions sometimes...but to my knowledge that is not known for a fact right ? So in (if) hoping this you are automatically applying your standards of "fair" just as I am applying my standards of "parenting". If we can't apply any of our own standards to God then how can we claim to know anything about him ? How does he love ? How does he hate ? etc.
Because God is pure and holy, he cannot tolerate evil. He hates it. [bad analogy] Its like light and darkness. Where there is light, there cannot be darkness. where there is darkness, there cannot be light [/bad analogy] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So God cannot love his creation Man. A parent loves their child unconditionally, yert God does not.
God doesnt exist
Prove it <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not here to prove that. I'm not even saying that I think he doesn't exist. I only gave you two options: He doesn't exist or he only watches. Your pick.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Prove it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, you are not my relative. Hows that for evidence? 6 billion people didn't all come from Eve. Now that is a fact.
God doesnt exist
Prove it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not here to prove that. I'm not even saying that I think he doesn't exist. I only gave you two options: He doesn't exist or he only watches. Your pick.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
and the third option?
what happened to that?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Adam and Eve didnt exist.
Prove it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, you are not my relative. Hows that for evidence? 6 billion people didn't all come from Eve. Now that is a fact.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your source? any particular scientfic paper on it? have you got any quotes? a link perhaps?
closely genetic people cause inbreeding defects. Now if the children of A&E would have humped only each other, it would have done pretty bad for their childrens genes. Pharaos in ancient Egypt were only allowed to have other high-class princess' etc. as their wife. Now because they were all relatives to each other, caused that, that their children didn't have the right variety of genes. So basically they went mad and often had all kinds of illnesses.
Pop Q: wonder why hillbillies are often retards?
Answer: inbreeding
If now everyone but 2 humans would be killed, they wouldn't be able to start a new world. The lack of genetical variety would make that impossible.
Faith isn't about evidence or logic (or whatever logic you make up to support your belief), it is just simply faith.
closely genetic people cause inbreeding defects. <b>Now if the children of A&E would have humped only each other</b>, it would have done pretty bad for their childrens genes. Pharaos in ancient Egypt were only allowed to have other high-class princess' etc. as their wife. Now because they were all relatives to each other, caused that, that their children didn't have the right variety of genes. So basically they went mad and often had all kinds of illnesses.
Pop Q: wonder why hillbillies are often retards?
Answer: inbreeding
If now everyone but 2 humans would be killed, they wouldn't be able to start a new world. The lack of genetical variety would make that impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
there we go again. making statements that you cannot back up with evidence. It may be hypothetical, but you have based your whole case on that one sentance
If the children did only hump each other, where is your proof?. if they didn't, your whole argument crumbles.
I dont think you want your argument to crumble, so, where is your proof. Thats what this is all about after all isnt it? If faith and belief have to be ruled out because of their lack of proof, every statemnt made must be backed up with evidence.
i'm waiting
(well, actually i'm going to bed. good night)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is that rarely are things black and white in the world. What about someone who is mentally ill and doesn't have a conscience as we would understand the term ? What about someone raised since birth in a different religion ? What about someone who never hears the "good news" ? What about...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One word Larry: reality. And as sad as that may seem, it is the truth, have no doubt about that. The questions you ask cannot possibly be explained in logical, laymen terms. These questions can and are only answered by God, if you believe in him. Hoping that God is just in every way, perhaps these people will go to heaven under his mercy. I am sorry if the bible cannot answer every question of yours.
What is hell? What is heaven? Is it as simple as the bible portrays? There are many hints in the bible, don't quite know where, but they point to a heaven and hell that are more complicated than what they seem to be. A hell with fires of torment, eternal damnation, these are all vivid portrayals of a Hell, but not exact accounts of what is hell.
Supposing that there is no time in the afterlife and that things are not kept track of up "there," perhaps "eternal" isn't as bad as it seems.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if what you believe is true... you do realize who created the places in your choose left/right metaphor I hope ? Again, would you describe a perfect parent as someone who just gives up on their child when they choose left instead of right ? That is my problem. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Larry, God didn't abandon us, we abandoned him. Life isn't about making one gigantic choice, which ultimately leads you to your destination. It is a continous process of decision making and whatnot. God just wants you to make it through to the end, and he is always there for you if and ever you call out to him for help (truly). God sticks with you to the end.
I believe God doesn't punish people directly during life. I wish he did, so that people would learn from their mistakes and ultimately make it "up there" and not "down there." But that is the price of ultimate freedom. It makes it that much harder to believe that God even exists, because he doesn't seem to play with us anymore. I believe life is a series of tests and if we pass them, we reap the rewards. The problem though is the question many of you raise. What happens to the people that don't pass the test of life? Since God is holy, he absolutely hates sin and cannot tolerate it. Sinners are not allowed into heaven, period. God is sovereign and will send people to hell to glorify himself, which may sound self centered, but really isn't, because it is for the better of mankind. By showing himself as sovereign, people will understand that God is God, and God is glorified. We follow moral laws, supposing that most people do, these laws are binded to us in every way. We sin and therefore "fall short of the glory of God." God came down to Earth in Jesus, because he loved us so much. Eternal salvation is a free gift and all you have to do is grab at it. We don't have to be perfect in order to go into heaven anymore, because Jesus paid for ALL sin.
Now another big question. If God is all-loving, why does he send people to hell? A lot of that is answered in the above. God is love, but he cannot love those who "go to hell," or should I say, "are in hell." Sorry to say, but that is the straight truth. It may sound unloving of him, but it is part of God's character to do what is just and right. Although Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, and although we shouldn't deserve to be in the sin that Adam and Eve are in, it is in every aspect part of God's perfect plan to glorify himself. Sounds a bit self-centered again, but it truly isn't, because in glorifying himself, those who believe in him are therefore glorified.
I know this sounds all smush smush, but to tell you the truth, larry and others, God is sovereign. He can be angry in a just way. I cannot really logically explain this further, supposing that I even explained the things I mentioned, on other than faith, reason. Because we cannot see God, we can "only" believe in him through faith, not reason. This should be the conclusion of the thread. Faith and reason do not mix, therefore it is fruitless to argue.
As for myself, I believe in God based on faith and reason. A view that is deistic, but not quite in the "sense." I believe that God created the Universe as reason simply points to, because there is no other easy reason to point out to other than of God. This belief that God created the universe follows deism in that God left the universe as it is. But the other part that that I mentioned above is that in order to establish a good relationship with God and ultmately come to a hundred percent conformation with him and his sovereign actions, one must have faith that challenges the test of time and in the end, life. For God created us, giving us freedom, so that we may freely believe in him. This universe that he created, are all works that inturn, glorifly him. For we can see and feel it everywhere.
God is real, because I can see him everywhere. In mathematics, in space, and whatnot. God is there and always has been. This is my base of belief, because we cannot explain the origin of things, God created it. It fits; it confuses; it doesn't match in color.
One word Larry: reality. And as sad as that may seem, it is the truth, have no doubt about that. The questions you ask cannot possibly be explained in logical, laymen terms. These questions can and are only answered by God, if you believe in him. Hoping that God is just in every way, perhaps these people will go to heaven under his mercy. I am sorry if the bible cannot answer every question of yours.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Faith based reasoning (addmittedly so even), no real place here. Sorry.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What is hell? What is heaven? Is it as simple as the bible portrays? There are many hints in the bible, don't quite know where, but they point to a heaven and hell that are more complicated than what they seem to be. A hell with fires of torment, eternal damnation, these are all vivid portrayals of a Hell, but not exact accounts of what is hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, we havent agreed on a version of hell for which to base arguments on. But certainly Hell is portraid as a place of eternal suffering, so it really doesn't matter exactly how the suffering takes place does it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Supposing that there is no time in the afterlife and that things are not kept track of up "there," perhaps "eternal" isn't as bad as it seems.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um.... what?
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Actually Larry, God didn't abandon us, we abandoned him. Life isn't about making one gigantic choice, which ultimately leads you to your destination. It is a continous process of decision making and whatnot. God just wants you to make it through to the end, and he is always there for you if and ever you call out to him for help (truly). God sticks with you to the end, hopefully "you" will have chosen what is right by then.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As it appears simply refusing to believe in God will result in being damned to hell. So apparently it is about making a choice, and then another choice (first that God exists, then choosing the right religion as christianity says [AFAIK] only christians are saved).
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I believe God doesn't punish people directly during life. I wish he did, so that people would learn from their mistakes and ultimately make it "up there" and not "down there." But that is the price of ultimate freedom. It makes it that much harder to believe that God even exists, because he doesn't seem to play with us anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That brings up a good question, why not? According to the Bible there were times when God interefered with the universe, talked to some people, and smote others, why is this no longer true?
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I believe life is a series of tests and if we pass them, we reap the rewards. The problem though is the question many of you raise. What happens to the people that don't pass the test of life? Since God is holy, he absolutely hates sin and cannot tolerate it. Sinners are not allowed into heaven, period. God is sovereign and will send people to hell to glorify himself, which may sound self centered, but really isn't, because it is for the better of mankind. By showing himself as sovereign, people will understand that God is God, and God is glorified.
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Only people wont understand that God is God because no living person sees anybody going to hell, and it would be intuitively obvious to the dead.
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We follow moral laws, supposing that most people do, these laws are binded to us in every way. We sin and therefore "fall short of the glory of God." God came down to Earth in Jesus, because he loved us so much. Eternal salvation is a free gift and all you have to do is grab at it. We don't have to be perfect in order to go into heaven anymore, because Jesus paid for ALL sin.
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Again you show that there really is only one important choice in life: Choose to believe in Jesus, or not. One will get you sent to hell, one won't.
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Now another big question. If God is all-loving, why does he send people to hell? A lot of that is answered in the above. God is love, but he cannot love those who "go to hell," or should I say, "are in hell." Sorry to say, but that is the straight truth. It may sound unloving of him, but it is part of God's character to do what is just and right.
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What makes it so just and right? I suppose since its what God does it just is, circular logic is fun.
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Although Adam and Eve sinned in the first place, and although we shouldn't deserve to be in the sin that Adam and Eve are in, it is in every aspect part of God's perfect plan to glorify himself. Sounds a bit self-centered again, but it truly isn't, because in glorifying himself, those who believe in him are therefore glorified.
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So its unfair that we must pay for the sins of Adam & Eve, but thats OK because it glorifies the christians?
The rest of your post is mearly a declaration of beliefs and as such cannot be argued.
EDIT:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and I am sorry if I specifically refered to you or tried to explain God with faith or reason. The conclusion that I bring is somewhat opposite of what this thread was designed for. But as you can see, it has kind of turned into a debate of faith and reason. But carry on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reason is fine. Faith exists contrary to reason, so it is not a valid base here, sorry.
EDIT: Recent argument with Euoplocephalus has prompted me to clarify this. You can use scripture to show why God allows evil to exist, or give a very very good reason why he should, you just can't say things like "God is perfect, so i'm sure that evil exists for a reason".
EDIT: This thread is getting a little off topic with the Adam & Eve thing. I can't remember if we discussed it alread in the Consistancy thread but that would be a good place to put it.