As for your first statement, that pretty much the exact question I'm asking cronos with different wording. I feel that it defeats his idea of Good requiring Evil exist.
God has not instructed humans not to kill, he has forbidden unlawful killing - murder. Taking the life of someone when you have no right to is what is forbidden, not the actual act of killing. What God is claiming is that he has a right to take human lives. Heck, I made these things, I gave them to the humans, and I reserve the right to take em away. But only if that person has sinned, for the wages of sin are death. So not only can he take your life away, you actually deserve to have it taken from you. And he is perfectly justified and in no way contradicting himself when he does so.
Humans do have free will, they get complete control over their own actions. They do not get complete control over everything that will ever happen to them, only over their own actions.
Last time I have heard of God fighting Satan? The Bible is littered with tales of God vs Satan. Jesus being tempted in the desert? Michael showing up late because he had a hell of a fight to get there? God and his angels actually cast Satan and Co down to Earth, and I have a suspicion they didnt just wag their naughty fingers at him and he turned tail and trudged to Earth. I think he would have needed a little encouragement.
I wouldnt say that was a "friendly wager" in Job. That was a challenge that God accepted, and he wouldnt have done so for the sheer hell of it. Part of a plan, its all part of a plan. And no, I dont what that plan is, but I have faith that God does. God is letting Satan run around willy nilly on Earth atm, so it must be part of a plan - but Satans days are numbered and he knows it. Once again I dont know why, and no one can presume to.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 28 2003, 12:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 28 2003, 12:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God has not instructed humans not to kill, he has forbidden unlawful killing - murder. Taking the life of someone when you have no right to is what is forbidden, not the actual act of killing. What God is claiming is that he has a right to take human lives. Heck, I made these things, I gave them to the humans, and I reserve the right to take em away. But only if that person has sinned, for the wages of sin are death. So not only can he take your life away, you actually deserve to have it taken from you. And he is perfectly justified and in no way contradicting himself when he does so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god")
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I have heard of God fighting Satan? The Bible is littered with tales of God vs Satan. Jesus being tempted in the desert? Michael showing up late because he had a hell of a fight to get there? God and his angels actually cast Satan and Co down to Earth, and I have a suspicion they didnt just wag their naughty fingers at him and he turned tail and trudged to Earth. I think he would have needed a little encouragement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're missing the point of my statement, that if god wanted to he could just say to Satan "Hey, you don't exist anymore" and Satan would go Bye-bye. God doing this is like if there was a guy threatening you with a gun, instead of stopping him, you pointed him in a direction with more targets so he wouldn't shoot you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldnt say that was a "friendly wager" in Job. That was a challenge that God accepted, and he wouldnt have done so for the sheer hell of it. Part of a plan, its all part of a plan. And no, I dont what that plan is, but I have faith that God does. God is letting Satan run around willy nilly on Earth atm, so it must be part of a plan - but Satans days are numbered and he knows it. Once again I dont know why, and no one can presume to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, God letting his mortal enemy have run of his creation (which he is supposed to love) is just part of a plan. If you you were a parent, and you made a child molester your kids babysitter, that wouldn't be very loving of you. Challenge, friendly wager, it all means the same thing. Satan asked "Hey, can I make this guy's (who you are once again supposed to love as your child) life a living hell, while killing off all of his innocent children and all his servants for no reason?" and God let him. Any way you slice it, God is a jerk who apparently likes whatching us get killed. That is, of course, he doesn't exist at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone.
Yeah boggle has a good point there, God is only talking to the Israelites, he's not making rules for himself. And then he goes on to tell them that certain crimes are punishable by execution. Obviously then there are times when it is okay to kill - and these times are clearly defined.
I too believe you are missing the point of my statement. God knows everything, if he exists. So to claim that from my tiny viewpoint in the universe that he's obviously doing it wrong is inane. He claims that it hurts him also to watch his people suffer, so he obviously isnt keeping Satan around for kicks. Therefore, if he allows Satan to exist despite the suffering it causes him and his people, he must have a reason. I dont know the reason, I cant see the reason, and I freakin well wish he'd just will Satan out of the picture too. But he hasnt, he wont, so I just have to trust he has reasons for doing so.
And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.
I always find it strange when people try and take the higher moral ground against God, when he is the very definition of morality. If he exists of course.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're missing the point of my statement, that if god wanted to he could just say to Satan "Hey, you don't exist anymore" and Satan would go Bye-bye.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.
If we use the common theory of Satan as a fallen angel (keeping in mind that it is, like all angelogy, highly speculative), then Satan had at some point in time the free choice how to use his large power and potential. One of the cornerstones of God's universe is that an evil choice doesn't kick you out of existence. Rather, God tells you what consequences your actions will have, and then he lets you lead your life as you choose. Even Satan was guaranteed this essential freedom all creatures enjoy.
By the way, I recommend the first chapter of Tolkien's The Silmarillion. It's his prosaic version of the Christian creation myth, and a beautiful visualization of the process. In Tolkien's version, God allowed the angels (Ainur) to partake in Divine Providence (the Great Music), and thus Melkor's (Lucifer's) ambition and greed tainted creation from the very beginning.
As a sidenote, Tolkien in his later works also goes out of his way to make clear that Evil does not and <i>cannot</i> possess the power to create out of nothing (symbolized by the Flame Imperishable). Evil can only corrupt that which is already there, and originally created good. That's why Orcs have to be corrupted Elves.
I think this point of Tolkien's is related to Erlandson's: It would be selfish to view mankind as centre, or even reason, for creation. There are higher forces at work, and God is proving his universal superiority to them as well as to us. As long as the sum of all Good outweighs the sum of all Evil, the argument from evil doesn't threaten God's benevolence.
I agree on evil being an "absence of." Being evil isn't about wanting to hurt individuals every chance you get, it is about having no compassion. This causes you to choose, with much indifference to the choice itself, evil actions. Maybe God isn't "all powerful." One could think of Him as a light that shines in the dark but doesn't vanquish the dark, but just because He can't doesn't mean He isn't God. As far as I believe, there are no other lights.
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Sep 28 2003, 03:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Sep 28 2003, 03:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're missing the point of my statement, that if god wanted to he could just say to Satan "Hey, you don't exist anymore" and Satan would go Bye-bye.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.
If we use the common theory of Satan as a fallen angel (keeping in mind that it is, like all angelogy, highly speculative), then Satan had at some point in time the free choice how to use his large power and potential. One of the cornerstones of God's universe is that an evil choice doesn't kick you out of existence. Rather, God tells you what consequences your actions will have, and then he lets you lead your life as you choose. Even Satan was guaranteed this essential freedom all creatures enjoy.
By the way, I recommend the first chapter of Tolkien's The Silmarillion. It's his prosaic version of the Christian creation myth, and a beautiful visualization of the process. In Tolkien's version, God allowed the angels (Ainur) to partake in Divine Providence (the Great Music), and thus Melkor's (Lucifer's) ambition and greed tainted creation from the very beginning.
As a sidenote, Tolkien in his later works also goes out of his way to make clear that Evil does not and <i>cannot</i> possess the power to create out of nothing (symbolized by the Flame Imperishable). Evil can only corrupt that which is already there, and originally created good. That's why Orcs have to be corrupted Elves.
I think this point of Tolkien's is related to Erlandson's: It would be selfish to view mankind as centre, or even reason, for creation. There are higher forces at work, and God is proving his universal superiority to them as well as to us. As long as the sum of all Good outweighs the sum of all Evil, the argument from evil doesn't threaten God's benevolence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I dont recommend the first chapter, I recommend the whole darn book. Sillmarillion explains so much, and puts the Lord of The Rings in perspective (as just an incredibly minor part of an entire story, one of Tolkiens greatest talents was to make people feel that there was so much more that they had missed out on, so much to know about this land, and you could genuinely feel sad at the "lost history" that never existed simply because Tolkien never created it)
Well mankind may well be not the entire point of creation, but it is certainly the entire point of this world, and as such should be the focus of people everywhere.
Seal's being clubbed? I work in a vet surgery, so I find that an anathema. But millions dying of HIV in Africa, so why give money to people who will just sabotage a few vehicles and hold up signs infront of Parliament House when you could give money to the finding of a cure for AIDs?
Whoa, God CANT do something about evil? Doesnt have the minerals? Thats definately not the God of the Bible.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 28 2003, 08:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 28 2003, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.
I always find it strange when people try and take the higher moral ground against God, when he is the very definition of morality. If he exists of course. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its like the Game Black and White - You answer to nobody. no-one tells you what to do, you do not have to do anything they ask
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Sep 26 2003, 10:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Sep 26 2003, 10:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One possible reason is that he seeks death, an end to his existence where no progress can ever be made. Being the perfect being that he is, he should know full well that it would be impossible to kill him thus nullifying this line of reason. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This idea kind of knocked me out of my chair. We don't really know who God is or what He wants. Whatever knowledge God wants us to have would be born within us, not in any kind of book. So this idea has some validity, but only as much as the others.
But it's also kind of dramatic in a mythological way, but a lot of religion is. But the way this world is built, it does make sense. We strive for perfection, perhaps to replace God. We might not see this way since we are a long ways away from any kind of perfection, but God is patient.
"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him." -Arthur C. Clarke
Why must whatever God wants us to know be born with us? Sure he has given us a conscience, but what is actually preventing this God from communicating with people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him." -Arthur C. Clarke <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be that our role on this planet is to design snowcones, or our role may just be 42. And that has all the backing of Clarke's statement, random musing.
I find it strange that you believe in Jesus, yet you deny him any credibility and you deny him the ability to communicate. You even denounce the accuracy of the book that introduced him to you. Why call him Jesus? Why not call him your "comfort being"? Who do you think he is, and why do you think he is that?
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless you happen to be ****, in which case he will smite your town. And it's not as if God isn't going to eventually do away with Satan. In revelation God will cast satan down to the pit, but for now he's just gonna let Satan make our lives suck. And notice that God isn't going to be merciful and just wink Satan out of existence, he is going to make Satan burn for all eternity. ETERNITY PEOPLE! We aren't talking about a few years here, we're talking about a neverending sentence of pure pain. Nothing deserves that. NOTHING. Especially since the origional reason he was cast out from heaven is basically because he questioned God, no worse than what I'm doing now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont recommend the first chapter, I recommend the whole darn book. Sillmarillion explains so much, and puts the Lord of The Rings in perspective (as just an incredibly minor part of an entire story, one of Tolkiens greatest talents was to make people feel that there was so much more that they had missed out on, so much to know about this land, and you could genuinely feel sad at the "lost history" that never existed simply because Tolkien never created it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I remember when I read the Silmarillion, I hated it. It is not a peice of literature so much as it is a Bible of Middle Earth. Just as in the Bible it is just horribly written as a story, no charater developement, etc. Although I suppose it's an aquired taste.
Well, after reading every reply in this thread, there are a few things I'll address.
1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle <i>by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates</i>. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.
2) Evil exists, but free will honestly doesn't. This is something that I've struggled with since accepting Him into my life four years ago. I'm not saying that predestination is necessarily perfectly true, but free will doesn't exist for any Christian. Any Christian who honestly and fully accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior will lead their life as He sees fit. They could no more ignore what the Lord has brought into their life and walk away from it than any of us could forget how to read or type. We may get rusty without practice, but it can never be wholly forgotten or ignored. My walk with the Lord has been relatively short, but packed full of things that have brought me valuable lessons. There have been times in my walk that I have shed the lessons taught me, ignored the instructions given me, and forsaken the teachings provided. But truly loving and knowing Him, I am incapable of doing certain things: including denying His existence, killing an innocent person, and many other things, because His nature in me removes the capacity for those things. I've been a drunken lecher and angry ****, and yet, I have always found my way back to Him. He will not lead me astray, but there is a certain lattitude in how far He'll let me diverge from His intended path for me before yanking me back on track. However, until you accept Him, He <i>chooses</i> not to guide your path so closely. As Revelations foreordains, there will be many left behind when He comes again. There will be those lead far astray by the Deceiver, and their blind following of the Unholy One will cost them their salvation. God is willing to sacrifice countless unbelievers for the safety of His elect, those who not only acknowledge Him, but worship and adore Him. He gives us all the same chance, and all the same opportunity, to come to know and love Him, but he gathers in his faithful and holds them closer than those who dance on the fringes of His goodwill.
3) The concept of unmaking evil at this point is a disturbing one. There are certain physical laws that hold consistent in God's paradigm for the world. One thing that human capabilities have shown is that <i>God will not allow that which he has created to be unmade, only altered</i>. God will not allow His creations to be unmade by anything. That which has been made has a purpose, and it is His will, that no matter what that creation is, it is allowed to fulfill its purpose. Some of you who cruise these boards may be parents, but most of us aren't. The only thing I could liken this to would be a parent whose child has run amock, become a threat and/or nuisance to those around them, had horribly disappointed their parent with their actions and words. Everyone knows or knows of one of these "problem children" or "troubled youth." Simply because these children contradict the hopes and desires for the parent does not make the parent love them any less. In my own family, blood is never turned away--no matter what they've done. A parent who has played their role in bringing life into this world would have no more desire to end that very same life than God would want to end the existence of anything he created simply at the snap of a celestial finger.
4) Anyone looking for a reason God allows evil in this world need look no further than the <a href='http://www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/Satan/Satans_bible_files/book_of_job-NIV.htm' target='_blank'>Book of Job</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job: <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> 1:1 "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. "
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." 8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." 12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the whole book, you will see that God sent Satan to afflict Job to test the mans righteousness and faith. Hardship and suffering are tests put into the lives of men to determine whether they truly love the Lord or pay him lip service and disregard Him. Do they praise Him only when He brings them what they desire? Or do they love Him regardless of the life he provides them? Will they cry out against Him in their suffering, or seek Him out for comfort through it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> 1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship
21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, Job says upon hearing that his sons and daughters have been killed, and his flocks stolen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
9 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. <b>Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"</b> In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, after Job has been afflicted with sores and his body covered in painful lesions.
God tests us daily, and sadly, we are all found wanting. But those of us who believe know that one day the testing will be over, along with the pain and suffering, and because of that, we stand strong and praise Him for testing us so.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 28 2003, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 28 2003, 03:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why must whatever God wants us to know be born with us? Sure he has given us a conscience, but what is actually preventing this God from communicating with people?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him." -Arthur C. Clarke <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be that our role on this planet is to design snowcones, or our role may just be 42. And that has all the backing of Clarke's statement, random musing.
I find it strange that you believe in Jesus, yet you deny him any credibility and you deny him the ability to communicate. You even denounce the accuracy of the book that introduced him to you. Why call him Jesus? Why not call him your "comfort being"? Who do you think he is, and why do you think he is that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Clarke has intelligence and good reason, that's enough to back his "musings" up. Either way, I've never said they were anything more than that. I didn't even say that my little ideas came from Clarke, because they didn't. Clarke is an atheist and thus believes perfection is achieved through evolution, and I find that his "musings" don't contradict that, I just added a little spark of mythology to it.
And why do you get so defensive when I say something about The Bible? I think attacking other Christians just because they aren't like you isn't going to please Jesus.
Okay well you didnt post the backing so I assumed there was none - my bad. And I wasnt getting defensive, I was inquiring, I honestly wanted to know, but I was quite blunt when I look back at what I said. Sorry about that.
But the question still stands, how do you justify your belief in Jesus when it has nothing to stand upon save your own feelings? How do you even know he's actually Jesus, seeing as it is based around a feeling of a relationship with something you can neither see nor directly talk to. Why Jesus, why not Buddha?
Come on Hive, you went after Boggles original statement after I had clarified it below. Murder is a form of stealing, instead of taking a material possesion you take a life that isnt yours. God claims that life, all life, is his, and he can darn well do what he wants with it, including taking it away. Murder - to steal someones life. God pwns your life, he cant steal it from himself, and thus is not murdering when he kills humans. And he doesnt kill for the hell of it either - he is working to a plan.
I think your analogy of parents and children is slightly flawed there Hive, it simply doesnt get to the root of God by making him a parent. Because parents do not define morality, they merely teach it. God defines morality, God personifies morality. You cannot take the higher moral ground against morality itself.
An analogy that might be a bit more relevent is your parents telling your 8 year old sister not to drink anything out of the liquor cabinet. Are they being hypocritical when they do so themselves?
If I tell my dog to sit, and then I walk away, have I contradicted myself? Not at all. If God gives a commandment to humans, and then appears not to follow it himself, that doesnt automatically qualify him as a hypocrite.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 29 2003, 03:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 29 2003, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Come on Hive, you went after Boggles original statement after I had clarified it below. Murder is a form of stealing, instead of taking a material possesion you take a life that isnt yours. God claims that life, all life, is his, and he can darn well do what he wants with it, including taking it away. Murder - to steal someones life. God pwns your life, he cant steal it from himself, and thus is not murdering when he kills humans. And he doesnt kill for the hell of it either - he is working to a plan. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So if we're all just God's property, to do with as he pleases, then the entire concept of free will really is just an illusion, as our free will can be stolen from us at any time on God's whim. And if we are without true free will, yet we are not made to be happy withought it, then either way God is a complete a-hole. You cannot justify god's morality on this. God made us imperfect on purpose, God made us unhappy on purpose, God gave us this great gift of free will (even though we are not completely free, we are still his property to be recalled at any time) and if we ever use this gift of free will to do anything he doesn't like, we are given another great gift, ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!!! Wow what fun! And I also love how people say to me "Well he's god so he has the power and can make the rules, if you disobey it's your own fault." This reaction mystifies me. If a hastage taker kills one of his hostages, do people justify him by saying "Well he had the gun so he made the rules, and it's the hostages fault for disobeying"? Heck no. God is no different from a simple thug.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking?
Gee, rat. You seem so sure of yourself. After a couple thousand year debate on why evil exists in the world, you're certain you, above all philosophers and theologins before you, can answer this problem of evil in one foul swoop. Unless you're God, you can't answer the question of why evil exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to be condescending and personal. If you want to take this personally, fight me. Otherwise, shut up and show a little respect towards the people on this thread.
In regards to your post, I say the contrary. My argument is that without God, nothing exists (and I do mean NOTHING). A triangle didn't even exist until God came into the picture. He set up the rules and defined what would qualify as a triangle. So if he can set up these rules, why can't he break them? Seems inconceivable that he could make a four-sided triangle, but he's God!!! If you say he can't do something, you're basically saying that God can't do everything.
When he created the universe, he did so following a set of rules which cannot be broken (so you presume). Under what we know of the laws of the universe, it is impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, it is impossible for him to create the universe without breaking his own rule. If he can do that, he could break any rule, right?
You didn't read Ramey's article, did you? Let me quote the relevant portion: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The overall error of the argument against the coherence of divine omnipotence is that it assumes:
9' If a Being cannot create that which cannot exist, then He is limited.
But the statement "a Being cannot create that which cannot exist" is vacuous; it does not assert anything that is not evident by logical analysis, nor does it assert anything whatsoever about the nature of the Being. It is trivially true. But since it asserts nothing about the nature of God, then it fails to derive a contradiction from theistic premises and is itself reducible to an absurdity. In short, a Being cannot be faulted for not creating that which cannot exist, because that which cannot exist cannot be created. God does not lack the ability to create that which cannot exist, because there is no such ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ?
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Sep 29 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Sep 29 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You didn't read Ramey's article, did you? Let me quote the relevant portion: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The overall error of the argument against the coherence of divine omnipotence is that it assumes:
9' If a Being cannot create that which cannot exist, then He is limited.
But the statement "a Being cannot create that which cannot exist" is vacuous; it does not assert anything that is not evident by logical analysis, nor does it assert anything whatsoever about the nature of the Being. It is trivially true. But since it asserts nothing about the nature of God, then it fails to derive a contradiction from theistic premises and is itself reducible to an absurdity. In short, a Being cannot be faulted for not creating that which cannot exist, because that which cannot exist cannot be created. God does not lack the ability to create that which cannot exist, because there is no such ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> [sarcasm]Oh I read it and you're right! Why didn't I see it before!? It is so evident now that I've read someone else's opinion![/sarcasm]
If you call the being that created everything we know as "God," then you need to refine your definitions a bit. "God" is supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, all-righteous. If he can't do something, he isn't all-powerful. Regardless of if you think it is possible, if you're saying he can't do something, you're breaking one of the definitions that makes God God. Now, if you wanted to talk about a new "god," then be my guest. If we're still talking about "God," then you need to stick with those 3 definitions.
Well this topic has bounced around a lot but the general concensus seems to be that God made evil and that is ok.
So basically as has been supported before God knowingly created evil, and created man knowing they would sin.
Being all knowing He knew it would happen. Being all powerful He could have stopped it.
He damns what He knowingly created in sinners, and doesn't prevent evil from existing yet hates it.
So basically even the relegious people seemed to agree God is hypocritical by nature. Which isn't surprising since He made us in His image and there isn't one person in the world who isn't a hypocrite.
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Sep 29 2003, 07:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Sep 29 2003, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've been thinking about this question.
People have been asking, raging, and debating over this question.
Why would a perfect god create a universe filled with so much evil?
But as I sat and thought, a greater conundrum came to me.
Why would a perfect god create a universe at all?
Really, what for? If you know why god created the universe in the first place, you just might have your answer as to why evil exists in it... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of corse, then there is the easy answer: THERE IS NO GOD. BTW, please people, don't have the next 5 post be along the lines of "Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason" (as is seen in the Consistancy forum too often) because it assumes that there is a God. We're trying to debunk the idea of God (in the christian 'perfect god' sense) by showing that a perfect god would not allow evil to exist, or wouldn't delay the punishment of evil people until there was no hope of repenting (because the punishment is mearly revenge then). When you assume God exists already it becomes circular reasoning to say "well there is evil, so god must have a reason for it".
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gee, rat. You seem so sure of yourself. After a couple thousand year debate on why evil exists in the world, you're certain you, above all philosophers and theologins before you, can answer this problem of evil in one foul swoop. Unless you're God, you can't answer the question of why evil exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to be condescending and personal. If you want to take this personally, fight me. Otherwise, shut up and show a little respect towards the people on this thread.
In regards to your post, I say the contrary. My argument is that without God, nothing exists (and I do mean NOTHING). A triangle didn't even exist until God came into the picture. He set up the rules and defined what would qualify as a triangle. So if he can set up these rules, why can't he break them? Seems inconceivable that he could make a four-sided triangle, but he's God!!! If you say he can't do something, you're basically saying that God can't do everything.
When he created the universe, he did so following a set of rules which cannot be broken (so you presume). Under what we know of the laws of the universe, it is impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, it is impossible for him to create the universe without breaking his own rule. If he can do that, he could break any rule, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, we'll start from the top. nothing was distinctly aimed at you, but more along the lines at the group of people who rationalize (as I would say they're just giving <i>rational lies</i>) their lack of faith on concepts like a "four-sided triangle." Look back to my example concerning the word Dictionary. Cross-apply the analysis from that and add it to my analysis of the four-sided triangle postulate. How can a human being who has created <b>arbitrary</b> standards and measurements claim that something is powerless when it contrives to define something as impossible by applying its own measely rules and "logic" to the situation? "Tri" being a derivative of another language, signifying the symbol 3 which constitutes a total of three of any given substance, is attached to "angle" another concept arbitrarily created by man. Add to that the "degrees" with which you measure these "angles" are another <i>arbitrary concept created by a man or group of men</i>. So far I've seen no objective, universal standard to which you've called my attention. If I choose to create my own counting system, use radians instead of degrees or better yet, fabricate a new system of measurement, and call these "angles" something else, or hell, even a collection of jubled alphanumeric symbols (ie "adsy9h83h54932h5po32n;2l35n321n352"), as long as it has consistency and coherency to someone, it is just as valid as any other method used. As I remember correctly, it's not called the "Divine Coordinate System" it's called the "Cartesian Coordinate System" or simply an "xy plane." The entire method used to plot points in space, measure the distance, area or angle between them, and every other use of an x and y-axis is named after (and here's the clincher....GASP!!!) a <b>man</b>, NOT God. Languages, numerical systems, measurement and demarcation systems, and every other method of written and spoken communication between one human and another are simply creations of men. Is English more divine than French or Spanish? Is a radian more or less divine than degree measurements? They're all equally mundane and terrestrial inventions, not divine passdowns from the Almighty.
Also, where anywhere did I agree that God is bound by any rules? Show me once where I said "God is subject to the laws of nature." Quite the opposite, I've stated quite firmly that I believe the laws of nature are subject to Him, and they may be bent or broken upon his Will. All that we understand about His creations is that which he has allowed us to glean from our surroundings. I'm speaking of faith here, not semantics or petty hair-splitting or even philosophy. If you want to create a logical paradigm where it is impossible to create something, then attempt to force an outside entity into that paradigm as you see fit to force him to be unable to do exactly what your paradigm says is impossible, you make no valid point at all. Any philosopher or thinker can create a paradigm of utopia, distopia, or existence then force the world into his view, but as H. L. Mencken once said: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself --H.L. Mencken<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Philosophy is man's attempt to draw coherency and logic from an environment designed and created on faith. Yes, there are some constants that He put into the way this earth grows and develops, but humanity is constantly adapting itself and changing the earth to its needs, so new things are constantly being discovered. How can anyone take it on faith that out of the last ~150k years of upright bipedal movement, so little was known about our earth until the last 200 years or so? Do you have that little faith in human potential?
Well, Rat, you make a good point, and I see where you are going with that.
However, while you can't say 3 = 4 in this world, how can you say with 100% certainty that 3 wouldn't equal 4 in another? God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.
It has been drilled into our heads since elementary school that 1 + 1 = 2. So what if I told you 2=1? Seems stupid right?
Take a gander at this.
a = b a^2 = ab a^2 - b^2 = ab - b^2 (a + b) (a - b) = b(a - b) (a + b) (a - b) / (a - b) = b (a - b) / (a - b) a + b = b b + b = b 2b = b 2b/b = b/b 2 = 1
Obviously, this is a trivial example, because you can't divide by zero, but my point is the same. We're so fixed about thinking about things, yet when infinity is encountered (n / 0), things you wouldn't think of are suddenly possible. God exists in such a state. So yes, a four-sided triangle is possible. Some people might get this, and some people might not. And if not, I don't blame you. It isn't easy to understand by a long shot.
as far as <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're misunderstanding something. Numbers, logic, mathematics and philosophy are not <i>of</i> God's creation, but creations of his creations. Man created those things to draw coherency from the world. Nowhere does God say "One and One shall equal two." One and two are arbitrary concepts representing a specific amount of materials, determined by a man. Mathematics is an extension of abstract and arbirtray concepts to further attempt to define that which <i>is</i>.
as far as approaching infinity goes, yes, I've taken applied calculus and I understand that in theoretical terms you can divide by zero and other such abstract concepts. In fact, slept through class every day and pulled the top grade. All I'm saying is that God didn't create or define any of these things.....man did.
[edit] additonally, a simple cartography class can teach you how to draw a triangle with three 90 degree angles in it...it's not that big of a stretch for the mind if done in the proper dimensions [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 11:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, Rat, you make a good point, and I see where you are going with that.
However, while you can't say 3 = 4 in this world, how can you say with 100% certainty that 3 wouldn't equal 4 in another? God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I must agree with Rat here. As he said, God did not define the rules of logic and math. Man invented those as a means of understanding and exploring the world in which we live. Man observes things, and then labels.
When we talk about numbers like 3 and 4, they are symbols man uses to describe something in the world. They are labels for ideas in other words.
It is not possible to have 3 = 4 anywhere though, because of the fact that they label different ideas. If you change the man-made definition of 4 to be the same as 3, then 3 = 4. But all you've done is changed the labels, <i>you haven't changed the world that they label.</i>
There is a difference in not being able to create something that is logically valid, and not being able to create something that is logically invalid.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Sep 29 2003, 10:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 29 2003, 10:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 04:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 09:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 28 2003, 02:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Sep 28 2003, 06:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> because (as has been said MANY times before) he wants us to have free will, and it is this free will that means evil still exists.
He could keep us from sinning but that would mean we dont have free will.
Comments
God has not instructed humans not to kill, he has forbidden unlawful killing - murder. Taking the life of someone when you have no right to is what is forbidden, not the actual act of killing. What God is claiming is that he has a right to take human lives. Heck, I made these things, I gave them to the humans, and I reserve the right to take em away. But only if that person has sinned, for the wages of sin are death. So not only can he take your life away, you actually deserve to have it taken from you. And he is perfectly justified and in no way contradicting himself when he does so.
Humans do have free will, they get complete control over their own actions. They do not get complete control over everything that will ever happen to them, only over their own actions.
Last time I have heard of God fighting Satan? The Bible is littered with tales of God vs Satan. Jesus being tempted in the desert? Michael showing up late because he had a hell of a fight to get there? God and his angels actually cast Satan and Co down to Earth, and I have a suspicion they didnt just wag their naughty fingers at him and he turned tail and trudged to Earth. I think he would have needed a little encouragement.
I wouldnt say that was a "friendly wager" in Job. That was a challenge that God accepted, and he wouldnt have done so for the sheer hell of it. Part of a plan, its all part of a plan. And no, I dont what that plan is, but I have faith that God does. God is letting Satan run around willy nilly on Earth atm, so it must be part of a plan - but Satans days are numbered and he knows it. Once again I dont know why, and no one can presume to.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god")
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Last time I have heard of God fighting Satan? The Bible is littered with tales of God vs Satan. Jesus being tempted in the desert? Michael showing up late because he had a hell of a fight to get there? God and his angels actually cast Satan and Co down to Earth, and I have a suspicion they didnt just wag their naughty fingers at him and he turned tail and trudged to Earth. I think he would have needed a little encouragement.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing the point of my statement, that if god wanted to he could just say to Satan "Hey, you don't exist anymore" and Satan would go Bye-bye. God doing this is like if there was a guy threatening you with a gun, instead of stopping him, you pointed him in a direction with more targets so he wouldn't shoot you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wouldnt say that was a "friendly wager" in Job. That was a challenge that God accepted, and he wouldnt have done so for the sheer hell of it. Part of a plan, its all part of a plan. And no, I dont what that plan is, but I have faith that God does. God is letting Satan run around willy nilly on Earth atm, so it must be part of a plan - but Satans days are numbered and he knows it. Once again I dont know why, and no one can presume to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, God letting his mortal enemy have run of his creation (which he is supposed to love) is just part of a plan. If you you were a parent, and you made a child molester your kids babysitter, that wouldn't be very loving of you.
Challenge, friendly wager, it all means the same thing. Satan asked "Hey, can I make this guy's (who you are once again supposed to love as your child) life a living hell, while killing off all of his innocent children and all his servants for no reason?" and God let him. Any way you slice it, God is a jerk who apparently likes whatching us get killed. That is, of course, he doesn't exist at all.
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone.
I too believe you are missing the point of my statement. God knows everything, if he exists. So to claim that from my tiny viewpoint in the universe that he's obviously doing it wrong is inane. He claims that it hurts him also to watch his people suffer, so he obviously isnt keeping Satan around for kicks. Therefore, if he allows Satan to exist despite the suffering it causes him and his people, he must have a reason. I dont know the reason, I cant see the reason, and I freakin well wish he'd just will Satan out of the picture too. But he hasnt, he wont, so I just have to trust he has reasons for doing so.
And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.
I always find it strange when people try and take the higher moral ground against God, when he is the very definition of morality. If he exists of course.
Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.
If we use the common theory of Satan as a fallen angel (keeping in mind that it is, like all angelogy, highly speculative), then Satan had at some point in time the free choice how to use his large power and potential. One of the cornerstones of God's universe is that an evil choice doesn't kick you out of existence. Rather, God tells you what consequences your actions will have, and then he lets you lead your life as you choose. Even Satan was guaranteed this essential freedom all creatures enjoy.
By the way, I recommend the first chapter of Tolkien's The Silmarillion. It's his prosaic version of the Christian creation myth, and a beautiful visualization of the process. In Tolkien's version, God allowed the angels (Ainur) to partake in Divine Providence (the Great Music), and thus Melkor's (Lucifer's) ambition and greed tainted creation from the very beginning.
As a sidenote, Tolkien in his later works also goes out of his way to make clear that Evil does not and <i>cannot</i> possess the power to create out of nothing (symbolized by the Flame Imperishable). Evil can only corrupt that which is already there, and originally created good. That's why Orcs have to be corrupted Elves.
I think this point of Tolkien's is related to Erlandson's: It would be selfish to view mankind as centre, or even reason, for creation. There are higher forces at work, and God is proving his universal superiority to them as well as to us. As long as the sum of all Good outweighs the sum of all Evil, the argument from evil doesn't threaten God's benevolence.
Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.
If we use the common theory of Satan as a fallen angel (keeping in mind that it is, like all angelogy, highly speculative), then Satan had at some point in time the free choice how to use his large power and potential. One of the cornerstones of God's universe is that an evil choice doesn't kick you out of existence. Rather, God tells you what consequences your actions will have, and then he lets you lead your life as you choose. Even Satan was guaranteed this essential freedom all creatures enjoy.
By the way, I recommend the first chapter of Tolkien's The Silmarillion. It's his prosaic version of the Christian creation myth, and a beautiful visualization of the process. In Tolkien's version, God allowed the angels (Ainur) to partake in Divine Providence (the Great Music), and thus Melkor's (Lucifer's) ambition and greed tainted creation from the very beginning.
As a sidenote, Tolkien in his later works also goes out of his way to make clear that Evil does not and <i>cannot</i> possess the power to create out of nothing (symbolized by the Flame Imperishable). Evil can only corrupt that which is already there, and originally created good. That's why Orcs have to be corrupted Elves.
I think this point of Tolkien's is related to Erlandson's: It would be selfish to view mankind as centre, or even reason, for creation. There are higher forces at work, and God is proving his universal superiority to them as well as to us. As long as the sum of all Good outweighs the sum of all Evil, the argument from evil doesn't threaten God's benevolence. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont recommend the first chapter, I recommend the whole darn book. Sillmarillion explains so much, and puts the Lord of The Rings in perspective (as just an incredibly minor part of an entire story, one of Tolkiens greatest talents was to make people feel that there was so much more that they had missed out on, so much to know about this land, and you could genuinely feel sad at the "lost history" that never existed simply because Tolkien never created it)
Well mankind may well be not the entire point of creation, but it is certainly the entire point of this world, and as such should be the focus of people everywhere.
Seal's being clubbed? I work in a vet surgery, so I find that an anathema. But millions dying of HIV in Africa, so why give money to people who will just sabotage a few vehicles and hold up signs infront of Parliament House when you could give money to the finding of a cure for AIDs?
Whoa, God CANT do something about evil? Doesnt have the minerals? Thats definately not the God of the Bible.
I always find it strange when people try and take the higher moral ground against God, when he is the very definition of morality. If he exists of course.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its like the Game Black and White - You answer to nobody. no-one tells you what to do, you do not have to do anything they ask
This idea kind of knocked me out of my chair. We don't really know who God is or what He wants. Whatever knowledge God wants us to have would be born within us, not in any kind of book. So this idea has some validity, but only as much as the others.
But it's also kind of dramatic in a mythological way, but a lot of religion is. But the way this world is built, it does make sense. We strive for perfection, perhaps to replace God. We might not see this way since we are a long ways away from any kind of perfection, but God is patient.
"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him."
-Arthur C. Clarke
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him."
-Arthur C. Clarke <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be that our role on this planet is to design snowcones, or our role may just be 42. And that has all the backing of Clarke's statement, random musing.
I find it strange that you believe in Jesus, yet you deny him any credibility and you deny him the ability to communicate. You even denounce the accuracy of the book that introduced him to you. Why call him Jesus? Why not call him your "comfort being"? Who do you think he is, and why do you think he is that?
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, God could do that. And the fact that he doesn't tells us something about his character: He doesn't cheat. He sticks to the order he has created even in extreme cases like Satan's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless you happen to be ****, in which case he will smite your town. And it's not as if God isn't going to eventually do away with Satan. In revelation God will cast satan down to the pit, but for now he's just gonna let Satan make our lives suck. And notice that God isn't going to be merciful and just wink Satan out of existence, he is going to make Satan burn for all eternity. ETERNITY PEOPLE! We aren't talking about a few years here, we're talking about a neverending sentence of pure pain. Nothing deserves that. NOTHING. Especially since the origional reason he was cast out from heaven is basically because he questioned God, no worse than what I'm doing now.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont recommend the first chapter, I recommend the whole darn book. Sillmarillion explains so much, and puts the Lord of The Rings in perspective (as just an incredibly minor part of an entire story, one of Tolkiens greatest talents was to make people feel that there was so much more that they had missed out on, so much to know about this land, and you could genuinely feel sad at the "lost history" that never existed simply because Tolkien never created it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember when I read the Silmarillion, I hated it. It is not a peice of literature so much as it is a Bible of Middle Earth. Just as in the Bible it is just horribly written as a story, no charater developement, etc. Although I suppose it's an aquired taste.
1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle <i>by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates</i>. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.
2) Evil exists, but free will honestly doesn't. This is something that I've struggled with since accepting Him into my life four years ago. I'm not saying that predestination is necessarily perfectly true, but free will doesn't exist for any Christian. Any Christian who honestly and fully accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior will lead their life as He sees fit. They could no more ignore what the Lord has brought into their life and walk away from it than any of us could forget how to read or type. We may get rusty without practice, but it can never be wholly forgotten or ignored. My walk with the Lord has been relatively short, but packed full of things that have brought me valuable lessons. There have been times in my walk that I have shed the lessons taught me, ignored the instructions given me, and forsaken the teachings provided. But truly loving and knowing Him, I am incapable of doing certain things: including denying His existence, killing an innocent person, and many other things, because His nature in me removes the capacity for those things. I've been a drunken lecher and angry ****, and yet, I have always found my way back to Him. He will not lead me astray, but there is a certain lattitude in how far He'll let me diverge from His intended path for me before yanking me back on track. However, until you accept Him, He <i>chooses</i> not to guide your path so closely. As Revelations foreordains, there will be many left behind when He comes again. There will be those lead far astray by the Deceiver, and their blind following of the Unholy One will cost them their salvation. God is willing to sacrifice countless unbelievers for the safety of His elect, those who not only acknowledge Him, but worship and adore Him. He gives us all the same chance, and all the same opportunity, to come to know and love Him, but he gathers in his faithful and holds them closer than those who dance on the fringes of His goodwill.
3) The concept of unmaking evil at this point is a disturbing one. There are certain physical laws that hold consistent in God's paradigm for the world. One thing that human capabilities have shown is that <i>God will not allow that which he has created to be unmade, only altered</i>. God will not allow His creations to be unmade by anything. That which has been made has a purpose, and it is His will, that no matter what that creation is, it is allowed to fulfill its purpose. Some of you who cruise these boards may be parents, but most of us aren't. The only thing I could liken this to would be a parent whose child has run amock, become a threat and/or nuisance to those around them, had horribly disappointed their parent with their actions and words. Everyone knows or knows of one of these "problem children" or "troubled youth." Simply because these children contradict the hopes and desires for the parent does not make the parent love them any less. In my own family, blood is never turned away--no matter what they've done. A parent who has played their role in bringing life into this world would have no more desire to end that very same life than God would want to end the existence of anything he created simply at the snap of a celestial finger.
4) Anyone looking for a reason God allows evil in this world need look no further than the <a href='http://www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/Satan/Satans_bible_files/book_of_job-NIV.htm' target='_blank'>Book of Job</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
1:1 "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. "
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.
10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you read the whole book, you will see that God sent Satan to afflict Job to test the mans righteousness and faith. Hardship and suffering are tests put into the lives of men to determine whether they truly love the Lord or pay him lip service and disregard Him. Do they praise Him only when He brings them what they desire? Or do they love Him regardless of the life he provides them? Will they cry out against Him in their suffering, or seek Him out for comfort through it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
1:20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship
21 and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." </span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, Job says upon hearing that his sons and daughters have been killed, and his flocks stolen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Book of Job
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>
2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.
8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
9 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. <b>Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"</b> In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, after Job has been afflicted with sores and his body covered in painful lesions.
God tests us daily, and sadly, we are all found wanting. But those of us who believe know that one day the testing will be over, along with the pain and suffering, and because of that, we stand strong and praise Him for testing us so.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him."
-Arthur C. Clarke <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It may be that our role on this planet is to design snowcones, or our role may just be 42. And that has all the backing of Clarke's statement, random musing.
I find it strange that you believe in Jesus, yet you deny him any credibility and you deny him the ability to communicate. You even denounce the accuracy of the book that introduced him to you. Why call him Jesus? Why not call him your "comfort being"? Who do you think he is, and why do you think he is that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Clarke has intelligence and good reason, that's enough to back his "musings" up. Either way, I've never said they were anything more than that. I didn't even say that my little ideas came from Clarke, because they didn't. Clarke is an atheist and thus believes perfection is achieved through evolution, and I find that his "musings" don't contradict that, I just added a little spark of mythology to it.
And why do you get so defensive when I say something about The Bible? I think attacking other Christians just because they aren't like you isn't going to please Jesus.
But the question still stands, how do you justify your belief in Jesus when it has nothing to stand upon save your own feelings? How do you even know he's actually Jesus, seeing as it is based around a feeling of a relationship with something you can neither see nor directly talk to. Why Jesus, why not Buddha?
Come on Hive, you went after Boggles original statement after I had clarified it below. Murder is a form of stealing, instead of taking a material possesion you take a life that isnt yours. God claims that life, all life, is his, and he can darn well do what he wants with it, including taking it away. Murder - to steal someones life. God pwns your life, he cant steal it from himself, and thus is not murdering when he kills humans. And he doesnt kill for the hell of it either - he is working to a plan.
I think your analogy of parents and children is slightly flawed there Hive, it simply doesnt get to the root of God by making him a parent. Because parents do not define morality, they merely teach it. God defines morality, God personifies morality. You cannot take the higher moral ground against morality itself.
An analogy that might be a bit more relevent is your parents telling your 8 year old sister not to drink anything out of the liquor cabinet. Are they being hypocritical when they do so themselves?
If I tell my dog to sit, and then I walk away, have I contradicted myself? Not at all. If God gives a commandment to humans, and then appears not to follow it himself, that doesnt automatically qualify him as a hypocrite.
So if we're all just God's property, to do with as he pleases, then the entire concept of free will really is just an illusion, as our free will can be stolen from us at any time on God's whim. And if we are without true free will, yet we are not made to be happy withought it, then either way God is a complete a-hole. You cannot justify god's morality on this. God made us imperfect on purpose, God made us unhappy on purpose, God gave us this great gift of free will (even though we are not completely free, we are still his property to be recalled at any time) and if we ever use this gift of free will to do anything he doesn't like, we are given another great gift, ETERNAL DAMNATION!!!!!! Wow what fun! And I also love how people say to me "Well he's god so he has the power and can make the rules, if you disobey it's your own fault." This reaction mystifies me. If a hastage taker kills one of his hostages, do people justify him by saying "Well he had the gun so he made the rules, and it's the hostages fault for disobeying"? Heck no. God is no different from a simple thug.
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to be condescending and personal. If you want to take this personally, fight me. Otherwise, shut up and show a little respect towards the people on this thread.
In regards to your post, I say the contrary. My argument is that without God, nothing exists (and I do mean NOTHING). A triangle didn't even exist until God came into the picture. He set up the rules and defined what would qualify as a triangle. So if he can set up these rules, why can't he break them? Seems inconceivable that he could make a four-sided triangle, but he's God!!! If you say he can't do something, you're basically saying that God can't do everything.
When he created the universe, he did so following a set of rules which cannot be broken (so you presume). Under what we know of the laws of the universe, it is impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, it is impossible for him to create the universe without breaking his own rule. If he can do that, he could break any rule, right?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The overall error of the argument against the coherence of divine omnipotence is that it assumes:
9' If a Being cannot create that which cannot exist, then He is limited.
But the statement "a Being cannot create that which cannot exist" is vacuous; it does not assert anything that is not evident by logical analysis, nor does it assert anything whatsoever about the nature of the Being. It is trivially true. But since it asserts nothing about the nature of God, then it fails to derive a contradiction from theistic premises and is itself reducible to an absurdity. In short, a Being cannot be faulted for not creating that which cannot exist, because that which cannot exist cannot be created. God does not lack the ability to create that which cannot exist, because there is no such ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The overall error of the argument against the coherence of divine omnipotence is that it assumes:
9' If a Being cannot create that which cannot exist, then He is limited.
But the statement "a Being cannot create that which cannot exist" is vacuous; it does not assert anything that is not evident by logical analysis, nor does it assert anything whatsoever about the nature of the Being. It is trivially true. But since it asserts nothing about the nature of God, then it fails to derive a contradiction from theistic premises and is itself reducible to an absurdity. In short, a Being cannot be faulted for not creating that which cannot exist, because that which cannot exist cannot be created. God does not lack the ability to create that which cannot exist, because there is no such ability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[sarcasm]Oh I read it and you're right! Why didn't I see it before!? It is so evident now that I've read someone else's opinion![/sarcasm]
If you call the being that created everything we know as "God," then you need to refine your definitions a bit. "God" is supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, all-righteous. If he can't do something, he isn't all-powerful. Regardless of if you think it is possible, if you're saying he can't do something, you're breaking one of the definitions that makes God God. Now, if you wanted to talk about a new "god," then be my guest. If we're still talking about "God," then you need to stick with those 3 definitions.
So basically as has been supported before God knowingly created evil, and created man knowing they would sin.
Being all knowing He knew it would happen.
Being all powerful He could have stopped it.
He damns what He knowingly created in sinners, and doesn't prevent evil from existing yet hates it.
So basically even the relegious people seemed to agree God is hypocritical by nature. Which isn't surprising since He made us in His image and there isn't one person in the world who isn't a hypocrite.
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change.
People have been asking, raging, and debating over this question.
Why would a perfect god create a universe filled with so much evil?
But as I sat and thought, a greater conundrum came to me.
Why would a perfect god create a universe at all?
Really, what for? If you know why god created the universe in the first place, you just might have your answer as to why evil exists in it...
People have been asking, raging, and debating over this question.
Why would a perfect god create a universe filled with so much evil?
But as I sat and thought, a greater conundrum came to me.
Why would a perfect god create a universe at all?
Really, what for? If you know why god created the universe in the first place, you just might have your answer as to why evil exists in it... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of corse, then there is the easy answer: THERE IS NO GOD. BTW, please people, don't have the next 5 post be along the lines of "Well, we can't understand god cause he's so much better then us, so I'm sure he created evil for a reason" (as is seen in the Consistancy forum too often) because it assumes that there is a God. We're trying to debunk the idea of God (in the christian 'perfect god' sense) by showing that a perfect god would not allow evil to exist, or wouldn't delay the punishment of evil people until there was no hope of repenting (because the punishment is mearly revenge then). When you assume God exists already it becomes circular reasoning to say "well there is evil, so god must have a reason for it".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) A four-sided triangle is impossible due to human limitations in their ability to capture the essence of something through language. If you're going to assign symbols to concepts, then try to say that anyone that can't circumvent your own system is not all-powerful, then you're doing nothing more than applying arbitrary and idiotic standards to your system. A four sided triangle would have 360 degrees, and would be considered a quadrangle by your own system of symbols, laws and postulates. That's like saying "Well, if he's all-powerful, God could spell Dictionary without the i's in it. GG nonsense and nonsensical rational-lies-ing your lack of faith and depth of character.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No need to be condescending and personal. If you want to take this personally, fight me. Otherwise, shut up and show a little respect towards the people on this thread.
In regards to your post, I say the contrary. My argument is that without God, nothing exists (and I do mean NOTHING). A triangle didn't even exist until God came into the picture. He set up the rules and defined what would qualify as a triangle. So if he can set up these rules, why can't he break them? Seems inconceivable that he could make a four-sided triangle, but he's God!!! If you say he can't do something, you're basically saying that God can't do everything.
When he created the universe, he did so following a set of rules which cannot be broken (so you presume). Under what we know of the laws of the universe, it is impossible to create something from nothing. Therefore, it is impossible for him to create the universe without breaking his own rule. If he can do that, he could break any rule, right? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, we'll start from the top. nothing was distinctly aimed at you, but more along the lines at the group of people who rationalize (as I would say they're just giving <i>rational lies</i>) their lack of faith on concepts like a "four-sided triangle." Look back to my example concerning the word Dictionary. Cross-apply the analysis from that and add it to my analysis of the four-sided triangle postulate. How can a human being who has created <b>arbitrary</b> standards and measurements claim that something is powerless when it contrives to define something as impossible by applying its own measely rules and "logic" to the situation? "Tri" being a derivative of another language, signifying the symbol 3 which constitutes a total of three of any given substance, is attached to "angle" another concept arbitrarily created by man. Add to that the "degrees" with which you measure these "angles" are another <i>arbitrary concept created by a man or group of men</i>. So far I've seen no objective, universal standard to which you've called my attention. If I choose to create my own counting system, use radians instead of degrees or better yet, fabricate a new system of measurement, and call these "angles" something else, or hell, even a collection of jubled alphanumeric symbols (ie "adsy9h83h54932h5po32n;2l35n321n352"), as long as it has consistency and coherency to someone, it is just as valid as any other method used. As I remember correctly, it's not called the "Divine Coordinate System" it's called the "Cartesian Coordinate System" or simply an "xy plane." The entire method used to plot points in space, measure the distance, area or angle between them, and every other use of an x and y-axis is named after (and here's the clincher....GASP!!!) a <b>man</b>, NOT God. Languages, numerical systems, measurement and demarcation systems, and every other method of written and spoken communication between one human and another are simply creations of men. Is English more divine than French or Spanish? Is a radian more or less divine than degree measurements? They're all equally mundane and terrestrial inventions, not divine passdowns from the Almighty.
Also, where anywhere did I agree that God is bound by any rules? Show me once where I said "God is subject to the laws of nature." Quite the opposite, I've stated quite firmly that I believe the laws of nature are subject to Him, and they may be bent or broken upon his Will. All that we understand about His creations is that which he has allowed us to glean from our surroundings. I'm speaking of faith here, not semantics or petty hair-splitting or even philosophy. If you want to create a logical paradigm where it is impossible to create something, then attempt to force an outside entity into that paradigm as you see fit to force him to be unable to do exactly what your paradigm says is impossible, you make no valid point at all. Any philosopher or thinker can create a paradigm of utopia, distopia, or existence then force the world into his view, but as H. L. Mencken once said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself --H.L. Mencken<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Philosophy is man's attempt to draw coherency and logic from an environment designed and created on faith. Yes, there are some constants that He put into the way this earth grows and develops, but humanity is constantly adapting itself and changing the earth to its needs, so new things are constantly being discovered. How can anyone take it on faith that out of the last ~150k years of upright bipedal movement, so little was known about our earth until the last 200 years or so? Do you have that little faith in human potential?
However, while you can't say 3 = 4 in this world, how can you say with 100% certainty that 3 wouldn't equal 4 in another? God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.
It has been drilled into our heads since elementary school that 1 + 1 = 2. So what if I told you 2=1? Seems stupid right?
Take a gander at this.
a = b
a^2 = ab
a^2 - b^2 = ab - b^2
(a + b) (a - b) = b(a - b)
(a + b) (a - b) / (a - b) = b (a - b) / (a - b)
a + b = b
b + b = b
2b = b
2b/b = b/b
2 = 1
Obviously, this is a trivial example, because you can't divide by zero, but my point is the same. We're so fixed about thinking about things, yet when infinity is encountered (n / 0), things you wouldn't think of are suddenly possible. God exists in such a state. So yes, a four-sided triangle is possible. Some people might get this, and some people might not. And if not, I don't blame you. It isn't easy to understand by a long shot.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're misunderstanding something. Numbers, logic, mathematics and philosophy are not <i>of</i> God's creation, but creations of his creations. Man created those things to draw coherency from the world. Nowhere does God say "One and One shall equal two." One and two are arbitrary concepts representing a specific amount of materials, determined by a man. Mathematics is an extension of abstract and arbirtray concepts to further attempt to define that which <i>is</i>.
as far as approaching infinity goes, yes, I've taken applied calculus and I understand that in theoretical terms you can divide by zero and other such abstract concepts. In fact, slept through class every day and pulled the top grade. All I'm saying is that God didn't create or define any of these things.....man did.
[edit] additonally, a simple cartography class can teach you how to draw a triangle with three 90 degree angles in it...it's not that big of a stretch for the mind if done in the proper dimensions [/edit]
However, while you can't say 3 = 4 in this world, how can you say with 100% certainty that 3 wouldn't equal 4 in another? God defined the rules of logic and math, and as inconceivable it is to imagine a four-sided triangle, it might seem as reasonable as 1+1=2 is to us in this world. I don't think any human being can wrap his mind around what God can do.
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I must agree with Rat here. As he said, God did not define the rules of logic and math. Man invented those as a means of understanding and exploring the world in which we live. Man observes things, and then labels.
When we talk about numbers like 3 and 4, they are symbols man uses to describe something in the world. They are labels for ideas in other words.
It is not possible to have 3 = 4 anywhere though, because of the fact that they label different ideas. If you change the man-made definition of 4 to be the same as 3, then 3 = 4. But all you've done is changed the labels, <i>you haven't changed the world that they label.</i>
There is a difference in not being able to create something that is logically valid, and not being able to create something that is logically invalid.
(please note that is does not say "thou shalt not kill unless you have darned good reason or just felt like it and happen to be god") <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes. You shalt not kill - You as in talking to the jews and the rest of us. not "nobody in heaven and earth shalt kill" just You. God isnt contradicting himself because he has not ever said he will never kill anyone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're telling me that it doesn't smack you as the least bit hypocritical that God, although telling all humans not to kill, nas no problem with killing people himself, or ordering those same humans to kill for no reason AT ALL?! No offense man, but what are you thinking?!?!?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even in the event that he is merely a sadistic torturer, you realise that you have no position from which to criticise him right? If God exists, he sets the morals. If he decides sadistic torture is okay, then it IS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If your mother beats you does not the state take her away? A child can be morally superior to it's parents, especially if those parents go against the rules they themselves have set down. It says in teh bible that god cannot stand to even look at an evil person or have him in heaven (evil meaning one who has not obeyed his commands) but yet God himselfe has disobeyed almost all of his commandments, God is the ultimate hypocrit.
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So a policeman finds an underage person drinking. and he tells him to stop.
later that week, the same policeman and his friends are off duty down the pub drinking themselves stupid.
Did that policeman do anything wrong by telling the minor to stop drinking? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policeman is a law enforcer though, laws which are decided by society at large. Therefore the policeman is not wrong to enforce those laws but he/she is also <i>subject to them</i>.
God can therefore not be compared to a policeman because it seems that God does whatever he wants, whenever he wants. Dictator in the sky ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God is subject to rules. he is perfect, therefore he cannot Sin. He cannot contradict his own nature
Let me put this another way. If i spent some time creating some plasticine models, obody could tell me i was wrong to destroy them could they? they are mine, so i can do what i like. If one of them looks bad, i can screw it up and start again.
We are mere plasticine models compared to God. he created us, he can destoy us. The reason you cant accept that is you dont like the feeling that someone has ultimate control over you <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But if he has ultimate control over us, and hates sin, why doesn't he mearly keep us from sinning? If he has ultimate control over us then he would be controling weather or not we suffer for eternity. Don't you see? by that logic God is a child playing with toys and we mean nothing to him, we are just his playthings to send to hell or heaven at will. In other words, God has **** you from the outset so you really didn't have any choice. And I don't see how anybody could believe in that kind of God. It contradicts his very nature.
On a side note I wish Marine01 would show up so we could have some semi-sane arguments for a change. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
because (as has been said MANY times before) he wants us to have free will, and it is this free will that means evil still exists.
He could keep us from sinning but that would mean we dont have free will.