Balance In Ns
SDJason
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
Join Date: 2003-05-29 Member: 16841Members
<div class="IPBDescription">is unachievable</div> Balance in any rts can usually be achieved because it is mostly charts, damage tables, and statistics.....Games like starcraft.. everyone KNOWS a dragoon will kill a zergling... a dragoon will kill 3 zergling... a dragoon will kill MANY things... yet everyone ALSO knows a Dragoon will NOT kill a Battlecruiser...
Why is this.... EVERYTHING IS DEFINITE.. unless it already has damage, everything in starcraft is definite
Now, bring this into Natural Selection.. The predictable computer is replaced with unpredictable humans. Not only does this open up countless other strategies, and teamwork never possible by a computer.
However this is also where Natural Selection Fails as an RTS... balance will never be achieved. Thats right NEVER.... Every human is different, while balanced games will sometimes happen, it will be a rarity. The fact that two skilled people play each other to a stalemate and one kills the other does not mean the game is unbalanced... The fact that the majority of aliens win and the majority of marines lose does not constitute a balance issue... there are no charts, tables, graphs, or statistics such as in an RTS like Age of Empires or Starcraft.
In those games.. ONE person controls everything.. in this game you control yourself... much like real life, some people are better, some are worse... nothing is balanced...
This is why people whine over balance issues, simply because in truth... it is not balanced... will never be balanced, and in all regards... cannot be balanced because of the human factors in play during this game..
RTS are based on a much broader aspect of the rock paper scissors principle... in that everything has a counter..... then i ask you what is the counter to human intelligence, human skill, and human unpredictability, coupled with the randomness and sometimes conflicting personalities prevalent in humans...
NS will never be balanced because of its reliance on the untrue principle that humans are consistant and predictable.. for were they not.. how would you go about balancing something?
~Jason
Why is this.... EVERYTHING IS DEFINITE.. unless it already has damage, everything in starcraft is definite
Now, bring this into Natural Selection.. The predictable computer is replaced with unpredictable humans. Not only does this open up countless other strategies, and teamwork never possible by a computer.
However this is also where Natural Selection Fails as an RTS... balance will never be achieved. Thats right NEVER.... Every human is different, while balanced games will sometimes happen, it will be a rarity. The fact that two skilled people play each other to a stalemate and one kills the other does not mean the game is unbalanced... The fact that the majority of aliens win and the majority of marines lose does not constitute a balance issue... there are no charts, tables, graphs, or statistics such as in an RTS like Age of Empires or Starcraft.
In those games.. ONE person controls everything.. in this game you control yourself... much like real life, some people are better, some are worse... nothing is balanced...
This is why people whine over balance issues, simply because in truth... it is not balanced... will never be balanced, and in all regards... cannot be balanced because of the human factors in play during this game..
RTS are based on a much broader aspect of the rock paper scissors principle... in that everything has a counter..... then i ask you what is the counter to human intelligence, human skill, and human unpredictability, coupled with the randomness and sometimes conflicting personalities prevalent in humans...
NS will never be balanced because of its reliance on the untrue principle that humans are consistant and predictable.. for were they not.. how would you go about balancing something?
~Jason
Comments
Why is this.... EVERYTHING IS DEFINITE.. unless it already has damage, everything in starcraft is definite
Now, bring this into Natural Selection.. The predictable computer is replaced with unpredictable humans. Not only does this open up countless other strategies, and teamwork never possible by a computer.
However this is also where Natural Selection Fails as an RTS... balance will never be achieved. Thats right NEVER.... Every human is different, while balanced games will sometimes happen, it will be a rarity. The fact that two skilled people play each other to a stalemate and one kills the other does not mean the game is unbalanced... The fact that the majority of aliens win and the majority of marines lose does not constitute a balance issue... there are no charts, tables, graphs, or statistics such as in an RTS like Age of Empires or Starcraft.
In those games.. ONE person controls everything.. in this game you control yourself... much like real life, some people are better, some are worse... nothing is balanced...
This is why people whine over balance issues, simply because in truth... it is not balanced... will never be balanced, and in all regards... cannot be balanced because of the human factors in play during this game..
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you that human beings are not balanced with each other, but that doesnt mean that a multiplayer computer game cannot be balanced... There are 2 completly different races that need to have even positive things and even negative things etc blablabla
Take firearms for instance <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IN an rts... there are set accuracy and set damage... stuff is predictable... you know whether you will lose or not before you even do
IN Natural selection, you do not, becuase it all comes down to skill and chance, two factors that will never be balanced out
Starcraft is all based on AI,NS is not...NS has the real player factor,its up to the player to kill,or to get killed,so we could just give a guy a battlecruiser in ns V.S a skulk and he could lose.
You balance by making statistics. If 90 out of 100 clan games end up in alien victory, then we have a balance issue. Single game doesn't prove anything unless the UNbalance is grosly obvious (game basically bugged to a point where the other side is invincible). You can't do the same type of "precise" balancing you can (maybe?) with Starcraft.
Starcraft is all based on AI,NS is not...NS has the real player factor,its up to the player to kill,or to get killed,so we could just give a guy a battlecruiser in ns V.S a skulk and he could lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly my point... how can you balance humans?
Think about what you're saying here.
When we can control something, how well we can control it is called skill.
When we can't control something, that's called chance.
So you're saying that NS will never be balanced because it involves things we can control and things we can't?
Please tell me what game doesn't.
Tell me that skill is not a factor in starcraft.. if this is so, then I imagine that game must get awfully boring since nobody would be better than anybody else.
Tell me that chance is not a factor in starcraft.. tell me that nobody ever misclicks, that your creatures always attack the optimum target when guarding an area, that nothing ever happens in the real world that might distract you from the game.
Natural Selection is certainly difficult to balance, what with the unique abilities of each team, how they combine, and how that differs based on the maps and the number of players and other factors.
Natural Selection may even be impossible to balance because of all of these things (though I don't think so), but your argument certainly does nothing to prove it.
the players need to be balanced - but this can be achieved by means the players will have to decide themselves.
the game itself can be balanced - just because you have human players doesn't mean you can't make the game fair.
If the game is balanced then the skill of the players, their actions and their decisions will determine the outcome of the game, and the actual game mechanics won't shift it one way or the other at all. That's all there is to it.
A game has to be played a lot in order for players to figure out every aspect of the game. Then and only then u can talk about balance. We've been playing NS from day one, and 2.0 so far showes that the score can go either way with balanced teams.
As far as Starcraft goes, let me ask u something. How many Zealots do u need to kill 8 zealots? 9?
nope. 6. Thats how many Boxer had on a demo i watched. he killed 8 zealots with his 6 zealots while losing only <b>2</b> of his. How? mircomanagement. The same goes for NS. And unlike SC's simple algorythm, there are more than dozen different factors affecting an NS combat
There merely needs to be a way to counter this or that, which there currently is, the game is to rely on humans. Else, why play?
The only true imbalances now are maps. Though even those are only imbalanced if the players ALLOW it to get that way. For example, allowing marines to build a siege in reception to destroy, or deny, holoroom, what a mistake. Yes, exceptions exist. Such as the siegeable dual res on Veil, with weldable vents overhead. Yes, they are killable, but not after aliens lose ALL that was built in the dual res, and suiciding/redemming into/from attacking it. Though, even then, smart marines will just weld it.
So, in fact, NS 2.0 is more balanced than 1.0x, and very close to being, if not completely, balanced as a FPS-RTS game can be.
Maybe the author of this topic should just practice being human everyonce in a while and learn some tactics, maybe make some choices.
Why the 'space of emptiness and burning' would you WANT to freaking balance humans?! That destroys the only fun point of a multiplayer game. Unpredictability.
If it is impossible to balance NS it is not due to chance or skill, but complexity. The number of options available is virtually infinte, the combinations of tactics, upgrades and human skill levels mean testing and balancing everything is impossible.
Thats because chess is played in a 2D world where both sides have the exact same peices. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS has 2 unique sides.
I say ballance the numbers, ta hell with everything else.
You have two things to ballance in a game: Player ballance and Number ballance.
2 HP + 3 Sheild points would be = to 5 HP, if sheild points acted like HP and they both had the same weapons doing 3 damage (killing either player in 2 shots)... no matter what the players in-game say, those numbers are ballanced. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If player A with 2HP/3SP just happened to side-step player B's shot and kill him with a identical weapon, player B would say that "The shield stops damage to your HP! I cant kill you that well!" when in fact if Player B would play with people his own skill level or learn to side-step/aim things would become very even.
Player ballance can never be achived, that's the truth; but atleast the numbers can be worked to be as even as possible, and thats all we can hope for. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think I'm a 60% accurate, poor pathing turtle script. As I play maps my pathing improves, and hopefully so does my accuracy. Strategy is learned from other scripts or by "trial and error".
Games like NS are balanced just like starcraft: balance all the units.
When the game is played, you select the AI difficulty in most RTS games. In NS the difficulty is based on the players who join.
If you keep losing, I suggest you play more and improve your script, or join a server with better players. If you keep winning, help other players improve their script.
Seeing as a zergling cant attack air units.. of course dragoons are better.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why can't a team win a game?
NO TEAMWORK!
Why can't the Marines win at least once?
NO TEAMWORK!
Why CAN'T the Aliens win at least once?
NO TEAMWORK!
Nobody wants to follow command in a FPS game. Why would you want to? Everybody wants to go out and kill things, right? Well unfortunately, the game was designed so that one Skulk Alien can take out four Marine soldiers pretty easily in the beginning however, as the game progresses... it will become harder and harder for that Skulk Alien to take out Marines very easily and thus we have evolutionary processes for the Aliens. What seems so hard to understand about that?
NO TEAMWORK!
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> (Lone Marine) = d3th
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + grenade ----------> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seeing as a zergling cant attack air units.. of course dragoons are better.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
After all the posts that have been made concerning the flaw of your original claim, all you can do now is misinterpret and reply to a single Starcraft statement?
Tsk tsk.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-1-1061947200.jpg' target='_blank'>One light lmg Marine can counter 4 onoses.</a>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/uploads/post-1-1061947200.jpg' target='_blank'>One light lmg Marine can counter 4 onoses.</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL! There is another elevator <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Seeing as a zergling cant attack air units.. of course dragoons are better.... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After all the posts that have been made concerning the flaw of your original claim, all you can do now is misinterpret and reply to a single Starcraft statement?
Tsk tsk.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the exact same thing.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This man is a genius.
This is me:
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> = +2 res, +1 res, +3 res, +1 res, +3 res
Then, <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> farm at my locations with <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> trees.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->