To Vyvn (before he edited his post away - stinker)
If they want to call themselves an elf, I don't really care. I do hope that while they call themselves an elf, they understand that there is nothing separating them from themselves and the rest of humanit... I mean "Elfdom." Otherwise, they are far more ignorant than those they claim "know squat."
As long as they don't start bombing things, I don't mind them calling themselves an elf.
I mean, "Lighting Bolt, Lighting Bolt" comes to mind, but still...
It's commonly agreed that the only way you can live your life is through what you know. So if these people believe that the world is different from the way the rest of us do, that's fine for them. That's why people are so special, because they can make their own opinions and decisions, even if it's different from what everyone else believes.
But I think that the universe does work in a certain way, in ways that humans will never know, and will never know that they don't know. In this way, I agree with the article, because the complexities of life are far too infinitely small and infinitely large to understand. So, once again, all we can do in life is live through what we experience.
But that doesn't make us right. And by calling themselves elves when their biological makeup is the same as all other humans, that seems like just giving a different name to the same thing. Of course, I can't know how these people think, and maybe they're right, that I don't know anything. But until I personally see proof of their claims, I can't really believe them. And that's what the article said, right?
This argument is incredible amusing. Someone claims that they are an elf, and, according to the cite, they are the only ones that can tell wether they are an elf or not. Remember, everyon else knows squat?
Thus, truths and fallacies are self-contained and near-impossible to disprove, because they rely on their own extrapolations of the theory to prove the theory true. Which, although making the belief nearly impossible to dispel completely, because it can never be proved wrong, does pose some serious problems when attempting to prove it true, because outside evidence cannot backup the belief, and in fact, bringing in outside evidence is against the belief itself.
Maybe I'll write a book about such trains of thought some day, but ultimately, these kinds of people are probably just people looking for a place to belong. Sure, some of them have smoked too much god-knows-what, but I believe the great majority of them are simply men and women who are looking for their niche in a greater good, to become part of a community, without fear of rejection. Hence, the worldview without a means to contradict it.
But back to the main point: Do I think that I am ignorant of the workings of the world around me? Hell yes, save for the truths I have either discovered for myself or those that have been taught to me and I have verified though my own means. By his logic, no-one can tell me I'm wrong.
What bugs me to no end, however, is the belief that there are no absolute truths, such as the world is round, the sky emits light between certain wavelengths most of the time, and there is a God. Certainly, the last one is clearly open for debate, heck, we went on about that one for about 20 pages in the discussion forum. But, saying that there is and there isn't at the same time <i>just doesn't work</i>. 2+2=5 and 2+2=3 cannot both be correct at the same time.
From the website: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Otherkin is a collective noun for an assortment of people who have come to the somewhat unorthodox, and possibly quite bizarre, <b>conclusion that they identify themselves as being something other than human</b>. It is also the lable used by a number of communities both on and off line. (The distinction between the two is not always drawn and can lead to some confusion). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no room for debate.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why the hell did you post this then? What did you want us to do, just agree with you and the person who wrote that, which in my mind, is somone who is just dieing for attention. Think before you post next time... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, I hoped that you would read it and at the very LEAST understand it. (It's not a badly written article, to be completely honest.) I was hoping that people would be mature enough not to insult me (And I am feeling insulted), the author and the entire concept of Otherkin. I guess I was wrong. Anyway, I'm going to edit my first post and then not check this thread anymore. This has gotten way out of hand. I'd prefer if a moderator locked it. Not deleted, because I'd like people to be able to find it, read the article, and possibly accept what it says.
Forrester, sorry if I insulted you, I just simply can't accept the argument due to the lack of outside proof. It just seems like an underdeveloped argument.
It <b>is</b> a badly written article. The writer tries to claim that everything we believe is untrue, but provides no facts to support this. He doesn't even provide an alternative truth. He just says we need to experience everything to make it our 'own truth.' Well then why should we believe what he says? We haven't experienced it.
Also, I would hope that you would be more willing to accept criticism, with an idea that so directly opposes the opinion of others.
I'm still unsure what you wanted us to write. "Ah"? "I see"?
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
Is it possible that we can "understand" this article while still completely disagreeing with it and finding it to be an idiotic concept? And BTW, saying that someone you are arguing with "doesn't understand" your argument is usually an admission of failure. I understand it. I understand that it is a very old and very wrong idea. But since you're probly not reading this it is pointless anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--Vyvn+Jul 7 2003, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Vyvn @ Jul 7 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's commonly agreed that the only way you can live your life is through what you know. So if these people believe that the world is different from the way the rest of us do, that's fine for them. That's why people are so special, because they can make their own opinions and decisions, even if it's different from what everyone else believes.
But I think that the universe does work in a certain way, in ways that humans will never know, and will never know that they don't know. In this way, I agree with the article, because the complexities of life are far too infinitely small and infinitely large to understand. So, once again, all we can do in life is live through what we experience.
But that doesn't make us right. And by calling themselves elves when their biological makeup is the same as all other humans, that seems like just giving a different name to the same thing. Of course, I can't know how these people think, and maybe they're right, that I don't know anything. But until I personally see proof of their claims, I can't really believe them. And that's what the article said, right?
<i>(Pointless rambling removed.)</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He basically summed up everything I could want to say. If you don't want to waste your time with some issues I had with his argument, don't read further, Vvyn said everything I wanted to, and said it shorter than I could. That said, here's my $0.02.
I can only agree with his statement of "you don't know squat" if he is referring to it as universally. I would agree. I don't understand how nigerian politics works. I'll never be driving a double-decker bus. I'll live. But I *do* know the tell-tale signs of the end of a relationship. I do know simple algebra. I do know that I can make a difference, but it's too much work for me to try and purposefully do it.
I agree with where he is coming from, he is just in denial. He IS human, he DOES contain the capabilities of a human. He does act differently, he does not do what he thinks is the worst of humanity (though if he's american he pollutes more than anyone else, regardless of how elfy he feels). That doesn't make him a different species, that makes him different from others. Big whoop, we're all different.
As much as I like where he's coming from, he's living in denial land. I tried that, it made me depressed. Accept who you are, you are human. The best you can do is to not act like the worst. Act how you want, just don't deny where you're from. [example] I could claim I'm a houseplant that can type. I often sit around and do little, I feed myself, but take water from the tap. I'm not a houseplant, I lack all of the qualities of a houseplant. I am a houseplant.[/example] Do you see how silly this looks? He's human. He may have a new philosophy, but that makes him different from us philosophically, not physiologically, or different enough to claim to be something else. He is who he is, but he believes what he wants to, just as <b>everyone</b> should. I'm glad he realizes he doesn't have to act like the worst of us, I'm sad he refuses to accept the fact that, in the end, he IS the same as the rest of us, me, you, NSPlayer, Player, and Private. And Flayra (thrown in for good measure).
[edit] he should have an addendum to his first saying. <b>"Find your own truth,<i> no matter how ignorant or stupid it is, and be happy with it</i>"</b> some people's truths could be more right than others, and as long as you don't force it upon others, it's cool. You won't harm anyone by being happy
I just had a discussion about religion and why I can neither choose to believe in or deny the existence of a god or gods. And no matter how much faith others have, I refuse to choose to believe in something b/c others can. This is where I got that idea from. [/edit]
I don't like most of the human race, as a whole. Sometimes I regret that I'm part of it. Most of the time, I feel utterly alien to it. That doesn't make me an elf.
Hmm... I'm still trying to digest everything, but some of that food might have come out of my ear instead of going through my stomach, and I really felt like trashing it after the first minute, but I'll try to give it a shot.
The definition of "squat" seems to be false knowledge, but the fact is that NOTHING in this world can be proven. Do I exist? Maybe someone else hacked my account and is using my account. What if you met me in the flesh? Well, with cloning technology nowadays, who's to say you're dealing with the real McCoy?
<b>Nothing in our reality can be proven. What we think are truths or proofs are simply things with a lot of evidence to back them up beyond doubt</b>
That's why we all know "squat".
One thing that didn't I couldn't agree on was this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second thing you realise after you accept that you don't know squat is that you can learn. Everything you do teaches you something. You learn that fire is hot. Sometimes you burn yourselves a few times first. That's part of the process. It's alright, because you don't know squat. Sometimes you can learn things from other people, just remember they don't know squat either. There are people who walk across burning coals barefoot and are unharmed. They don't know that fire always burns you, even though people have told them that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He seems to imply that if you don't "know" something, it can't affect you. Those people walk on coals because they adapted to it, not on the basis that they didn't "know". I don't "know" whether drinking a glass of highly concentrated hydrochloric acid will hurt me; people have told me the effects, but I refuse to "know" - what will the outcome be?
It's like Homer when he drove through the red light with his eyes covered saying, "If I don't see it, it's not illegal"...
Thus, back to the lack of belief in absolute truth.
I think that, in terms of finding your own belief system, you can't be afraid to contradict other's beliefs. I think that's what a lot of these relitivist organizations degenerate into, is a system where everyone picks their own beliefs then never dares to defend them, because it's right for them and no-one else....
I don't know, I guess I just can't relate to a situation where I'd need to make up my own religion to feel like I have somewhere I belong. I guess that's somewhere where having a firm belief in the grace of God is liberating.
Comments
If they want to call themselves an elf, I don't really care. I do hope that while they call themselves an elf, they understand that there is nothing separating them from themselves and the rest of humanit... I mean "Elfdom." Otherwise, they are far more ignorant than those they claim "know squat."
As long as they don't start bombing things, I don't mind them calling themselves an elf.
I mean, "Lighting Bolt, Lighting Bolt" comes to mind, but still...
But I think that the universe does work in a certain way, in ways that humans will never know, and will never know that they don't know. In this way, I agree with the article, because the complexities of life are far too infinitely small and infinitely large to understand. So, once again, all we can do in life is live through what we experience.
But that doesn't make us right. And by calling themselves elves when their biological makeup is the same as all other humans, that seems like just giving a different name to the same thing. Of course, I can't know how these people think, and maybe they're right, that I don't know anything. But until I personally see proof of their claims, I can't really believe them. And that's what the article said, right?
<i>(Pointless rambling removed.)</i>
Thus, truths and fallacies are self-contained and near-impossible to disprove, because they rely on their own extrapolations of the theory to prove the theory true. Which, although making the belief nearly impossible to dispel completely, because it can never be proved wrong, does pose some serious problems when attempting to prove it true, because outside evidence cannot backup the belief, and in fact, bringing in outside evidence is against the belief itself.
Maybe I'll write a book about such trains of thought some day, but ultimately, these kinds of people are probably just people looking for a place to belong. Sure, some of them have smoked too much god-knows-what, but I believe the great majority of them are simply men and women who are looking for their niche in a greater good, to become part of a community, without fear of rejection. Hence, the worldview without a means to contradict it.
But back to the main point: Do I think that I am ignorant of the workings of the world around me? Hell yes, save for the truths I have either discovered for myself or those that have been taught to me and I have verified though my own means. By his logic, no-one can tell me I'm wrong.
What bugs me to no end, however, is the belief that there are no absolute truths, such as the world is round, the sky emits light between certain wavelengths most of the time, and there is a God. Certainly, the last one is clearly open for debate, heck, we went on about that one for about 20 pages in the discussion forum. But, saying that there is and there isn't at the same time <i>just doesn't work</i>. 2+2=5 and 2+2=3 cannot both be correct at the same time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Otherkin is a collective noun for an assortment of people who have come to the somewhat unorthodox, and possibly quite bizarre, <b>conclusion that they identify themselves as being something other than human</b>. It is also the lable used by a number of communities both on and off line. (The distinction between the two is not always drawn and can lead to some confusion).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Backs away slowly*
*Sprints*
Also, I would hope that you would be more willing to accept criticism, with an idea that so directly opposes the opinion of others.
I'm still unsure what you wanted us to write. "Ah"? "I see"?
But I think that the universe does work in a certain way, in ways that humans will never know, and will never know that they don't know. In this way, I agree with the article, because the complexities of life are far too infinitely small and infinitely large to understand. So, once again, all we can do in life is live through what we experience.
But that doesn't make us right. And by calling themselves elves when their biological makeup is the same as all other humans, that seems like just giving a different name to the same thing. Of course, I can't know how these people think, and maybe they're right, that I don't know anything. But until I personally see proof of their claims, I can't really believe them. And that's what the article said, right?
<i>(Pointless rambling removed.)</i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He basically summed up everything I could want to say. If you don't want to waste your time with some issues I had with his argument, don't read further, Vvyn said everything I wanted to, and said it shorter than I could. That said, here's my $0.02.
I can only agree with his statement of "you don't know squat" if he is referring to it as universally. I would agree. I don't understand how nigerian politics works. I'll never be driving a double-decker bus. I'll live. But I *do* know the tell-tale signs of the end of a relationship. I do know simple algebra. I do know that I can make a difference, but it's too much work for me to try and purposefully do it.
I agree with where he is coming from, he is just in denial. He IS human, he DOES contain the capabilities of a human. He does act differently, he does not do what he thinks is the worst of humanity (though if he's american he pollutes more than anyone else, regardless of how elfy he feels). That doesn't make him a different species, that makes him different from others. Big whoop, we're all different.
As much as I like where he's coming from, he's living in denial land. I tried that, it made me depressed. Accept who you are, you are human. The best you can do is to not act like the worst. Act how you want, just don't deny where you're from.
[example] I could claim I'm a houseplant that can type. I often sit around and do little, I feed myself, but take water from the tap. I'm not a houseplant, I lack all of the qualities of a houseplant. I am a houseplant.[/example]
Do you see how silly this looks? He's human. He may have a new philosophy, but that makes him different from us philosophically, not physiologically, or different enough to claim to be something else. He is who he is, but he believes what he wants to, just as <b>everyone</b> should. I'm glad he realizes he doesn't have to act like the worst of us, I'm sad he refuses to accept the fact that, in the end, he IS the same as the rest of us, me, you, NSPlayer, Player, and Private. And Flayra (thrown in for good measure).
[edit] he should have an addendum to his first saying. <b>"Find your own truth,<i> no matter how ignorant or stupid it is, and be happy with it</i>"</b> some people's truths could be more right than others, and as long as you don't force it upon others, it's cool. You won't harm anyone by being happy
I just had a discussion about religion and why I can neither choose to believe in or deny the existence of a god or gods. And no matter how much faith others have, I refuse to choose to believe in something b/c others can. This is where I got that idea from. [/edit]
The definition of "squat" seems to be false knowledge, but the fact is that NOTHING in this world can be proven. Do I exist? Maybe someone else hacked my account and is using my account. What if you met me in the flesh? Well, with cloning technology nowadays, who's to say you're dealing with the real McCoy?
<b>Nothing in our reality can be proven. What we think are truths or proofs are simply things with a lot of evidence to back them up beyond doubt</b>
That's why we all know "squat".
One thing that didn't I couldn't agree on was this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The second thing you realise after you accept that you don't know squat is that you can learn. Everything you do teaches you something. You learn that fire is hot. Sometimes you burn yourselves a few times first. That's part of the process. It's alright, because you don't know squat. Sometimes you can learn things from other people, just remember they don't know squat either. There are people who walk across burning coals barefoot and are unharmed. They don't know that fire always burns you, even though people have told them that. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He seems to imply that if you don't "know" something, it can't affect you. Those people walk on coals because they adapted to it, not on the basis that they didn't "know". I don't "know" whether drinking a glass of highly concentrated hydrochloric acid will hurt me; people have told me the effects, but I refuse to "know" - what will the outcome be?
It's like Homer when he drove through the red light with his eyes covered saying, "If I don't see it, it's not illegal"...
I think that, in terms of finding your own belief system, you can't be afraid to contradict other's beliefs. I think that's what a lot of these relitivist organizations degenerate into, is a system where everyone picks their own beliefs then never dares to defend them, because it's right for them and no-one else....
I don't know, I guess I just can't relate to a situation where I'd need to make up my own religion to feel like I have somewhere I belong. I guess that's somewhere where having a firm belief in the grace of God is liberating.