The Return Of 2 Hive Lockdowns
XCan
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
Am I the only one who noticed that with the plugins for the so called unoficcial 1.05 (especially jp nerf) 2 hive lockdowns have returned with tremendous force. Still it's close to impossible to stop a 2-hive-lockdown if the marines know how to shoot making the games even more lame than when jp/hmgs were used.
Comments
No they are not. They are boring as hell.
They can also be prevented in certain cases by good alien teamwork.
There should be a few skulks patrolling the hives and key areas checking for marines. As soon as they seem some marines enter a hive, they need to notify the team immediatly. (Parasites help.)
It is much easier to clear out a location before the marines get a chance to build up.
(Also - wait for the marines to drop the first structure. This will distract at least one marine giving the aliens a better chance.)
res starvation is ok, but hives starvation... theirs only 2 to take.
but to stay on topic, woling up the map can be reptty fun when they have 2 hives. its a pretty much stale mate but i love it when the aliens break a lock down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Is it just me, or do most people spend all of their time complaining about strats instead of learning how to combat them. 2 hive lockdown is easy to crack if you work together. JP/hmg just takes practice to combat, where as 2 hive lockdown requires mental thought and strategic planning.
[edit] I'm noticing posts about how this will affect 1.1. It won't, this is a fan-based modification to NS, just like Voogru's plugins are. Chill out, take a breather. [/edit]
It's true that capable aliens should be able to prevent this, but it becomes all the more frustrating when the lockdown is caused by teammates that don't listen. Then you either spend the next half hour throwing yourself at the turret and mine spams, while silently cursing the noobs, or convince the team to F4. Neither of which anyone enjoys.
2 hive lockdowns from the marine start are always dodgy and the aliens have 3 possible targets , at any time they can hijack the phases to reach them. When the lerks show up , the marines have a hard time maintaining strong turret farms in both hives while mining their own base and teching.
The good thing about this I think is that the marines have to get off their lazy **** and actually try to own some of the map instead of
"relocate to hive" - "get 3 or 4 nozzles" - ("bunker yourself in") - "hand out jetpacks" - WIN
I know it's not always that easy, but it usually comes down to that and all because of the jetpacks and the way they work forever on high fpsers.
the only lockdowns I "really" find boring are the ones that start turretspamming the hives once they have them (and lets admit, this is what mostly gets done).
Lemme share with you the tactic I have used since the first time I went comm (didnt go marine till beta 1.03, alien was just too fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) ... get one hive or a big open spot next to a hive depending on the strength of the alien team I send 1, 2 or 3 guys out to hunt for nozzles along the path of the 2nd open hive, have them stay at that second hive till I get phasegates, by this time the nozzles I got are usually eaten, but that doesnt bother me, I got the one near my hive, I got the one near the other one. put EXACTLY 6 turrets in the other hive and temp defend my base with mines (I like to believe that turrets are pretty good once you learn to juggle them. btw the reason why I only put 6 turrets in the other hive is simple ... if my troopers are lazy bums, they deserve to lose the game. if I say "hive NOW" and they dont respond I log out and they can handle it on my own, I have no trouble with a losing a game. If I need siege at the other hive I tend to build a second tf (since the first one stops showing its health once it's upgraded), a siege cannon off course and maybe an extra turret.
Now during all this, you might say my 2 rts wont serve me well you'd be wrong, if the marines listen (and 3 of them can handle a single skulk, not always the case). Now I start a slow process simply upgrading everything, ... I think with only 6 turrets (and yes placed well, but still defeatable) a good alien team still has more then a chance of winning.
Now ... you've all seen this before and it's boring, but counter to all other commanders you've seen using this I don't let the game take a second longer then needed ... once everything is upgraded and ONLY then I save about 200 res (supprisingly fast on 2 rts I must say) and start equipping people with stuff (not 1 weapon gets handed out before this point unless maybe in extreme cases) and telling them that the game is finished all they have to do is put the cherry on the cake and kill the hive ... I have no idea if psychology comes in question here and if by believing that the game is as good as over they become a bit more confident (most rines Ive seen are afraid of their own shadow) but I swear at this point in a game there has been not 1 alien team that held out longer then 5 minutes.
I have tried other tactics ... I have tried the jetpack rush and all (I think it's the single most unfair way of winning, but I just had to see how 'good' it was) and I must say that it depends solely on the skill (and fps) of your marines. In general not even to be called a tactic since you just overpower the aliens, no real brainpower/skill needed. Compare it to a soldier equipped with everything but an a-bomb having to take out a 4-year old with a waterpistol.
To be honest the server I usually play on took it off deliberatly because the admin himself likes "good" jetpacking too much and with the plugin he ran out of fuel and plunged to his death (ow no, where have I seen that before) ... something us low fpsers have to always watch out for and that's a pity ... I'm wondering what comms will do to adapt to 1.1 (as I understand it, the jetpack is nerfed in 1.1 as well) cause most of them imagine themselves extremely great ?ber tactical leaders of the world because they usually win ... but when the 9-ressed miracle that granted them their good fortune becomes no better then the rest of his tools
... I wonder if we won't see aliens win all the time in 1.1
(btw I appologise for my long posts, I'm an extremely boring person and tend to type lots and lots of stuff to make my point <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1.05 servers does not need the JP nerf (silly silly name) anymore apparently <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> TBH its better if they do, it just takes geting used to, and teddy i will try talk to afore mentioned admin about the aformentioned problem.
About the hive lockdowns. Unless there is 10+ turrets in each a coordinated lerk, skulk and gorge assault will kill any lock down. The thing that still bugs me is the proccessing on hera tactic, NORMALLY its fine but every now and then a comm will sqeeze 50 or so turrets into that little room.
I dunno, we try to do something for the communtity and we get slated, I dont see you coming up with an idea that has kept many people in the community, hmmm hmmm <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> lol jk mate, all ideas have their skeptics.
Not only does the umbra plugin umbra the said hive so much, it makes it inmune against most jp hmg rushes, and with the new jp, you cant even stay in the air for long. Its not what was supposed to be. Taking 4 plugins and calling it 1.05 is kinda... poorly executed. =/
the hive umbra cloud disuades spawncampers, its funny how a guy from .torment (ill not say who) wanted to spawncamp us in CC hive on eclipse, he killed all the alive things in there, one respawned umbra protected kicked the living daylights out of the .torment guy, who then leaves in disgust that he cant spawncamp.
sigh, from a "top" clan too
From the aliens point of view the marines had a 'two hive lockdown' someone said so so we believed them and for ages fought for subspace hive against seiges, jp's, ha etc etc etc until one of us realized it wasn't a 'lockdown' it was three turrets and a phase gate at no-name hive and he made quick work of all of it. By then everyone on both teams was convinced it was a two hive lockdown and we fought another five or 6 minutes before he got the message accross that the hive was empty! We built the hive, dropped the movement chambers and beat the marines to a bloody pulp. I've seen this sort of situation from both sides where if the aliens split their forces correctly and work fast and together they can trounce the marines even on one hive.
Recently a good tactic against a turret farm was a gorge rush! Two or three gorges leapfrogging and constantly heal-spraying each other and a skulk or two that travels with them. The skulk makes quick work of turrets and any marines that interfere can easily underestimate the effects of the healspray.
From the marines point of view we fought on ns_rampage for ages against 2 hive aliens - we were located in the last hive and had virtually no res, fades at both doors and constant barrage of acid and leaping skulks - but we kept charging out and every time we had enough a new turret, welder or turret factory was dropped. Occasionally a GL or Seige cannon. Aliens nearly took us out so many times but eventually we pushed them back far enough to grab a second res, then a third. By this time we had covered 1/4 of the map in turrets (but only 3-4 in any one location), factories and sieges just to try to keep the fades at bay and it worked. The comm saved the res and we kitted out in ha/hmg with me in light armour and a welder using the three heavies as a shield. We pused forward and took the hive after a brief batle with no marine casualties <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> . The game had been running over an hour now with the aliens unable to finish us off. They had the common decency to leave our base alone, all our turrets un touched so we were able to clear the hive completely.
Great we thought, two hive lockdown and move for the kill but they whined "kill us now - get it over with". Even though it is not tactically a good idea we headed for the last hive. It was harder to take and we lost half the heavies, to add insult to injury when the hive went down did we hear ping, ping, ping? No, a quick scan showed the cheeky blighters had put up the hive we just took down and stuffed it full of lame.
"stop dragging it out" they whined "ffs finish it"
So off we headed, now five heavies with gl and took the hive down - the hard way to show respect because the aliens had already told us sieges are lame.... guess what, yep other hive brought up in our absence and because we had done things the hard was we gave them enough time to bring the hive up and all go fade - we were facing a full army again. We went back and took the hive down after a long and bloody battle that we almost lost twice by use of siege, pg and turrets. Then after the lockdown was secure we headed back to the original hive and seiged the crap out of the whining **** with about 8 seige cannons.
motto of the story: I don't think there is, if there were to be a motto it would be something like "Some people will always whine that its not fair and its no fun when their not winning, these people are best ignored."
-
Eaglec
PS. both the above games were on a 1.05 server and both of them were excellent fun.
Phew, so it isn't just me. I mean, basically what I read was, 'Actually I admit... tactics... aliens win all the time in 1.1.' and then the comment about the boring post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
sure it's good to be on the winning rine side of a succesful lockdown and obliteration, but it happens time and time again, i'm sick of the question at the start of a round "which hive are we relocating to", as if it's a given that this is the strategy...
i've been comming a bit lately, and although i generally suck and lose, i've been trying some different strategies that don't necessarliy involve lockdown or relocation....a game or 2 that i've commed recently has remained at marine start, concentrated on securing res and at least one hive....by the time aliens had 2 hives up, we had at least lvl 2 ha/heavy weapons to combat this..these games (although losing most of them) did end up in very good battles, a clincher in one was losing 2 ha guys to closing doors in ns_nancy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like the stuff that enhances the gameplay and makes it more intense....of which a 2 hive lockdown is not these things <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
sure it's good to be on the winning rine side of a succesful lockdown and obliteration, but it happens time and time again, i'm sick of the question at the start of a round "which hive are we relocating to", as if it's a given that this is the strategy...
i've been comming a bit lately, and although i generally suck and lose, i've been trying some different strategies that don't necessarliy involve lockdown or relocation....a game or 2 that i've commed recently has remained at marine start, concentrated on securing res and at least one hive....by the time aliens had 2 hives up, we had at least lvl 2 ha/heavy weapons to combat this..these games (although losing most of them) did end up in very good battles, a clincher in one was losing 2 ha guys to closing doors in ns_nancy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like the stuff that enhances the gameplay and makes it more intense....of which a 2 hive lockdown is not these things <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That strat can work well in CoFR if you have a strong comm in the chair (that keeps the marines in line)
The diversity of tactics in a 2 hive lockdown is many times that of a JP rush.
sure it's good to be on the winning rine side of a succesful lockdown and obliteration, but it happens time and time again, i'm sick of the question at the start of a round "which hive are we relocating to", as if it's a given that this is the strategy...
i've been comming a bit lately, and although i generally suck and lose, i've been trying some different strategies that don't necessarliy involve lockdown or relocation....a game or 2 that i've commed recently has remained at marine start, concentrated on securing res and at least one hive....by the time aliens had 2 hives up, we had at least lvl 2 ha/heavy weapons to combat this..these games (although losing most of them) did end up in very good battles, a clincher in one was losing 2 ha guys to closing doors in ns_nancy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like the stuff that enhances the gameplay and makes it more intense....of which a 2 hive lockdown is not these things <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That strat can work well in CoFR if you have a strong comm in the chair (that keeps the marines in line) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very good for you that you own a perfectle elite server where all the players know what they're doing. But for most of us that's not the case, leading to even more boring game than the fast ending jp/hmg rush which still can fail.
Phew, so it isn't just me. I mean, basically what I read was, 'Actually I admit... tactics... aliens win all the time in 1.1.' and then the comment about the boring post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I should put a warning in next time "do not opperate heavy machinery while reading this" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
sure it's good to be on the winning rine side of a succesful lockdown and obliteration, but it happens time and time again, i'm sick of the question at the start of a round "which hive are we relocating to", as if it's a given that this is the strategy...
i've been comming a bit lately, and although i generally suck and lose, i've been trying some different strategies that don't necessarliy involve lockdown or relocation....a game or 2 that i've commed recently has remained at marine start, concentrated on securing res and at least one hive....by the time aliens had 2 hives up, we had at least lvl 2 ha/heavy weapons to combat this..these games (although losing most of them) did end up in very good battles, a clincher in one was losing 2 ha guys to closing doors in ns_nancy <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
i like the stuff that enhances the gameplay and makes it more intense....of which a 2 hive lockdown is not these things <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That strat can work well in CoFR if you have a strong comm in the chair (that keeps the marines in line) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's very good for you that you own a perfectle elite server where all the players know what they're doing. But for most of us that's not the case, leading to even more boring game than the fast ending jp/hmg rush which still can fail.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't call CoFR "Elite". I <i>would</i> call it "mature".
<i>Anyway</i>, only the fluid games are fun, run of the mill 2 hive lockdowns sux, jp more fun because more individual skill based or else short term alien teamwork required to defeat, as opposed to lockdown inevitable doom and aliens ramboing everywhere and nightmare to get them together to accomplish anything.
An example of fluid :
#1 marines kill 5 hives but aliens win the game.
#2 Marines relocate 4 times and take out our primary hive twice, but aliens win.
Not just alien wins count of course ^^ but these are memories that come to mind.