Should Multiple Gorges Be Viable In 1.1?
Driftwood
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8245Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8245Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Problems in public servers?</div> I know that one of the things Flayra wants to achieve with 1.1 is that having multiple gorges in team means faster growth, not the opposite. This sounds and feels logical. However, I have some problems with the concept regarding balance and the way it could play out in pubs.
Now, I am not a Veteran nor PT, but by reading the beta discussion, I’ve understood that the removal of added shares and overflow has resulted in gorges having less resources in overall. Naturally, lowered costs help, but I have a nasty feeling that with the current system of 1.1, alien team is actually required to use multiple gorges in order to make do with resources.
This isn’t a problem in clanplay as clanners are organized and follow a game plan. But in pubs, I feel that somewhat ironically, 1-3 gorges is the optimum number in terms of intelligent teamplay. If single gorge is able to build less than in 1.04, it means that the building responsibility has to be divided between the teammembers. Sharing responsibility means sharing power – power to guide the game and the team tactics. Team’s gorges are the masterminds of the game plan and when it becomes required that more player evolve to gorge only to go back skulking after building something, it means that public play will often fall into chaos on the alien part.
Now, I hope I’m wrong and all will go right, but I have a bad feeling about the multiple gorges thing. When you have too many gorges in 1.04, it’s usually a newbie problem. Too many gorges results in none of them enjoying themselves with resources coming in so slow and newbies will eventually learn. In 1.1 I believe the only time alien team has too many gorges is when they are sacrificing too much of their fighting power for expansion. <b>All is well and good as long as gorging isn’t required of those not interested in it for the team to survive.</b> Playing should be fun for everyone. If the pub team only has two players interested in gorging and the rest would prefer skulking, it should in my opinion be a viable option. With the current system, I can’t see it possible that one or two dedicated gorges are a viable solution for alien team.
Naturally, it’s a whole new game and too much has been changed for me to judge it reliably. I haven’t played 1.1 and probably shouldn’t make assumptions about its game mechanics. However, I wanted to take this opportunity to voice my concerns over the subject just in case they might prove true. It may look like I’m resenting change just for the sake of it. “Multiple gorges are needed – live with it.” If that’s the case I will live with it, but I also hope that rest of the pubbers will like to live with it.
Thanks if you waded through all this. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now, I am not a Veteran nor PT, but by reading the beta discussion, I’ve understood that the removal of added shares and overflow has resulted in gorges having less resources in overall. Naturally, lowered costs help, but I have a nasty feeling that with the current system of 1.1, alien team is actually required to use multiple gorges in order to make do with resources.
This isn’t a problem in clanplay as clanners are organized and follow a game plan. But in pubs, I feel that somewhat ironically, 1-3 gorges is the optimum number in terms of intelligent teamplay. If single gorge is able to build less than in 1.04, it means that the building responsibility has to be divided between the teammembers. Sharing responsibility means sharing power – power to guide the game and the team tactics. Team’s gorges are the masterminds of the game plan and when it becomes required that more player evolve to gorge only to go back skulking after building something, it means that public play will often fall into chaos on the alien part.
Now, I hope I’m wrong and all will go right, but I have a bad feeling about the multiple gorges thing. When you have too many gorges in 1.04, it’s usually a newbie problem. Too many gorges results in none of them enjoying themselves with resources coming in so slow and newbies will eventually learn. In 1.1 I believe the only time alien team has too many gorges is when they are sacrificing too much of their fighting power for expansion. <b>All is well and good as long as gorging isn’t required of those not interested in it for the team to survive.</b> Playing should be fun for everyone. If the pub team only has two players interested in gorging and the rest would prefer skulking, it should in my opinion be a viable option. With the current system, I can’t see it possible that one or two dedicated gorges are a viable solution for alien team.
Naturally, it’s a whole new game and too much has been changed for me to judge it reliably. I haven’t played 1.1 and probably shouldn’t make assumptions about its game mechanics. However, I wanted to take this opportunity to voice my concerns over the subject just in case they might prove true. It may look like I’m resenting change just for the sake of it. “Multiple gorges are needed – live with it.” If that’s the case I will live with it, but I also hope that rest of the pubbers will like to live with it.
Thanks if you waded through all this. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
While I share your concern about public play, especially when not going gorge is rewarded with more resources (by killing marines) and thus evolving to more powerful forms (and thus killing even more marines and getting even more resources), I'm also attracted to the openess of strategies for the aliens - 6 players going gorge, capping RT's and dropping upgrade chambers right from the start is a quite viable strategy, in 8+ player games.
One other concern I've had with the way 1.1 is shaping out, is that I've understood that there are less alien infestation in the form of buildings. I'm not sure if it's because gorges lack the res to plop down structures or is it just that gameplay doesn't encourage it. Anyhow, reading for example Talesin comment that gorges often don't afford a single OC doesn't sound too good to me. Gorges are more of medics and bombarders with their new abilities but are they still heavy duty builders or do they have to co-operate in order to infest a single room with several chambers?
It would require a serious overhaul to get a gameplay where 1 Gorge is just as viable as 6 Gorges.
again just speculation
It would require a serious overhaul to get a gameplay where 1 Gorge is just as viable as 6 Gorges. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't actually think that 25% -70% of the team being gorges should be viable. In general, I don't think dividing power is a good idea in public play. Gorges should be few in number and preferrably dedicated gorges, not skulks who gorge just to build few chambers and then go back.
Making multiple gorges viable is a valiant effort, but in my opinion it can be questioned if the cure is worse than the disease. One gorge can never be just as viable as 6 gorges nor should it be. Depending on the system, some configurations will always be better than others. In this case, I feel that a configuration where team has 2-3 dedicated gorges should be better than having a large number of players go gorge.
Could you please elaborate? I'm interested in how the 1.1 system where gorges don't get extra shares and there's no overflow isn't dependent on the number of gorges, i.e how can the one gorge afford everything?
Well, you can win with sensory first in 1.04 - it just depends on how much the marines suck.
What most people are interested in is if there are large strategic differences in having one gorge compared to having several. From what one can deduce of the resource model, good alien strategy seems to revolve around early game multiple gorges capping and dropping upgrade chambers.
Think the main problem on the alien pub teams will be the realization that going gorge means you won't get enough res to go Fade/Onos (or you will get there much later than otherwise).
Shanks, I believe the current 1.1 costs of structures are:
OCs - 5
RTs and Upgrade Chambers - 10
Hives - 30
Now, to address you're gorge concern. I belive it should be viable for the entire team to go gorge. I don't think there's any plausible reason to do it, just, you COULD if you wanted to. Also, It should be possible for a team to have one or 2 good gorges and win... that's what balanced to me would be. Now, I'm sure Flay will have some more idea's/surprizes that will make this whole discussion a moot point... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = <i>Well, we'll just have to wait and see, huh?</i>
If there is only a single gorge, then he should be able to build like nuts with added protection from the fighter type aliens.
Well, that's how it should be, anyways. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
If there is only a single gorge, then he should be able to build like nuts with added protection from the fighter type aliens.
Well, that's how it should be, anyways. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it should be like that. Now that is how it is in 1.04, but I think (and this is again, speculation) in 1.1 it is more a balance between gorges making buildings and aliens evolving into higher life forms. Now the more gorges you have, the more buildings you will have, but at the same time you will have fewer higher life forms. And if you have few or no gorges, you'll potentially have tons of fades and oni, but many buildings like hives and RCs are essiential. But even if you have a lot of these essiential buildings (as a result of many gorges) you'll lack the higher life forms to deffend them. So at least one gorge is essiential, but too many (or a lack of good ones) is always detremental.
This is just my speculation
<li>Lower costs.
5 RP for an OC, 10 RP for all other chambers and a resnode, 30 bucks for a hive. These numbers can (and will) change, but anyway, take them as basis for a node with three OCs, a sensory, and a defense chamber.
All in all 45 RP, and honestly, how many of your resnodes do you really defend like that?
Gorges can afford more because more is affordable.
<li>No benefitted position.
By becoming Gorge, you do no longer 'steal' other teammembers resources. While this opens the door to multiple Gorges, it also makes 'casual' Gorges possible. Skulked for ten minutes and then stumble over an empty hive? 45 RP later, it isn't anymore. And unlike 1.0x, nobody will yell at you for stealing him the last points he needs for Fade.
<li>Combat advantages.
Bilebomb is easily <i>the</i> weapon against mechanized marine defenses. OK, the Gorge will need backup against rines, but he can theoretically clean a whole subbase on his own. Thus, you'll also see Gorges who're focussed on supportive fighting instead of building, which does in turn add a few more wildcards who might just cap that node you come across.
All in all, it works pretty well without of forcing people into stale habits.
Especially the fact that gorges also have a combat role (aside from forward healing and webbing, which really requires a little experience) means that newbs will be trying all roles now, and the loss of the benefitted position means they can do so without getting yelled at.
-You still need to have a majority of the team able to cope with marines well. Gorges are really good at certain things, but awful in everything else. So, if you have too many gorges, your will have major weaknesses just waiting to be exploited by crafty marines.
-A gorge is a wonderful thing to have with an assault force. He's a medic if nothing else, and often a siege unit/weblayer. Throw in a couple forward bases, and you've got some good assault momentum. One gorge per 3 or 4 attackers should be plenty to heal and build.
-You still need someone to handle your hive defense, so not everyone can be on the frontline. A gorge hanging back and placing defenses as needed/building up new hives will keep your upgrades coming.
-You can both place resource collectors at and around your hives (base gorge's job) + in new territory you've claimed (battle support gorge). This should help with the ecomony significantly.
-Since gorges do not need to share resources, you can get two gorges immediately. They can each build a res, and you instantly have much more income that your would with just one gorge. Unless you <i>really</i> need the extra fighters, the extra gorge will be a great boon.
-Res sucking is gone, so there's no reason to all go gorge for the sake of going fade/onos. Just go gorge if you plan on actually doing a gorge's work.
So, there's no real reason to get just one gorge, and there's a limit to how many gorges can be useful at once. Two or three, depending on the number of players and how many fighters you need, should be optimal.
However, currently there really isn't any such thing as a dedicated Gorge until late-game. If you're sitting around, you can't really build anything with the speed and ease of v1.04 with a single Gorge. Even with OCs at 5RP, that takes a LONG time to build up, even with two or three RTs.
Of course, at some point the whole thing shifts. Everyone is swimming in RP, and the Marines are hiding in their base lobbing tons of grenades at the door so they can tech up. The only way past THAT (with the current GLs) is for the entire team to go Onos, and hope one or two might make it through all the boomie. Any Skulk, Lerk or Fade that goes *near* the rolling explosions will be lucky to make it halfway through the kill-zone before dying. A lucky Fade who timed it right might make it to the other side of the explosions before the (considerable range) splash damage takes 'em down.
as for 1.1, the gorge can probably be used more often in tandem with other gorges.(hive gorge, res gorge and attack-gorge), already am i considering of becoming a attack-gorge in 1.1(when i can finaly conqeur my fear for being scolded at by teammys). in 1.1 the gorge will not get any res bonus. they shall have to hunt for res with skulks. i also believe that gorges will set up defenses and barricades up sooner, to prevent the 'rines from exploring too much and gaining res nodes(which will hopefully boost the popularity of shotgun). there is the risk that too many players will gorge though.
I think its great that the aliens slowly kinda grow and spread out, where as the marines set up indepdant bases, it really does seem like they are fighting an investation.
I think multiple gorges will just increase this happening, some can be looking for res, some building, it all increases the casual teamwork element of NS, the alien team often has 2 gorges when they have 2 hives now anyway and that works brilliantly, each gorge setting up defence in each hive, or building movement chambers.
Shotguns do have the disadvantage of limited effective range, so they should be fairly easy to counter with lerks.
In fact, if shotgun rushes are too strong, I'd suggest making lerks just a tad bit cheaper - 27-28 would be perfect - so you can get lerks at about the one minute mark. Lerks protected by the hive umbra and healing should be pretty tough to take out for shotgun marines (though concentrated pistol fire can do wonders).
Bw, what is the actual ROF of the shotgun? It used to be about 1 shot/second, anyone knows the new figure?