<!--QuoteBegin--KungFuSquirrel+Apr 12 2003, 10:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Apr 12 2003, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exactly? Those aren't reasons why, those are just re-iterating the "dislike" with a much stronger term, "hate."
I don't take offense to people not liking Eclipse, but I sure take offense to people going out of their way to state how much they don't like ANY map without even offering a slight hint why or how, in their eyes, it could be improved - those might as well be a direct personal attack on whoever made it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Without even the slightest hint why? I give up...thats just sad..."I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout." isnt 'the slighted hint' why he dosent like it?
I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout.
Bah! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He said "dislike", not "sucking" or "suck" or "sucks", I thought dislike was a polite way to say it.
Hate is an expression, it is not an insult or a complain. And you can see there, he stated EXACTLY why he didnt like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly. Nowhere in that short post did he say why the factors he listed indicate why he disliked the map.
Saying "I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout" simply states <i>what</i> he didn't like about it. Well, what is it about the texturing he didn't like? Why did the architecture fail to impress? And, in his opinion, what aspects of the layout were less than stellar?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, ns_bast really dislikes you. It hates your clothing, it hates the way you are built and the way your face is arranged.
See what it's like to give unconstructive criticism?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, IMO, summed it up perfectly - and example of "here's what I don't like, but I won't say why". Most mappers (...modellers, artists, etc...) are willing to take constructive criticism about their work, but "<i>I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout</i>" doesn't help the person responsible for that work do anything to improve it.
Dear God people we could go on for hours about the aspects of hate and dislike and how words are interpretted, but in the end it just ends up in a flame war, a **Lock**, or both, so can we please get back to the original discussion?
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited April 2003
SnO0py, I should be the one giving up here, not you. There is not a shred of useful information in that statement. The only way to address anything stated there would be to build a new map from scratch. What you speak of is not WHY he doesn't like it, it's WHAT he doesn't like about it... and the "whats" listed add up to be the entire map.
Anyway. To KuBaN's question: Veil has been playtested a few times, and the 5th revision is currently underway, but not included in the 1.1 build we received last night. People seem to like it so far, but the 5th build is notably different than the ones playtested (so different, in fact, that I completely skipped a playable version of build 4 so I had a middle-ground version in between Beta 3 and Beta 5). While I have every intention of completing it for 1.1, there is no guarantee that it will actually go into 1.1. I assume my status having made Eclipse won't hurt, but it's the map that'll be the determining factor of whether or not it goes in in the end.
There's a number of other solid maps that look to be good for 1.1, but the question remains, how many new ones will go in? I don't think anyone really knows at this point.
KFS is right. People complain, but offer not constructive criticism on how to make it better...
off course, with most people here coming from the CS community, thats not surprising. I try and give good feedback when ever i can, and because the level designers of the NS maps ARE here in the forum to listen.
like, i could say i do not like Tanith. Why? Because the layout of it is too much hallways and not enough "central" areas. The res nodes are too far away from the marine spawn and get easily eaten by skulks. The vents are long and often give out directly on walls, exposing them if you're caught running in them as a skulk. The textures on the outside really do not match the rest of the NS maps. The ready room itself doesn't fit NS either... the list goes on.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->yes, I've tried to put a stop to the processing problem (however reluctant I was)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must admit that quote surprised me. I've always loved hera (i'm a real weld fan <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but processing tends to make it a bit of a no-show. Was the original intention to make processing a double seige point? Or was that just overlooked in playtesting?
Back onto other things, looking at the standard maps now:
Bast: Truely a great map, the layout is superb but I have one tiny gripe: the refinery hive. I think it's a little too easy for the marines to take down (regardless of what 1.1 brings with jetpacks, if they're still in the game refinery is still going to be easy to take down on the wing). I'm assuming that the marine spawn weld vent bug will be fixed (the one that breaks the weld with 1 gorge spit). Other than that great work
Tanith: Why do people complain about this map? It can tend to be a little open, granted, but I generally have no problem ambushing or assulting, either on marines or aliens. The sattilite weld is just pure genius, I'd love to see more stuff like that in maps. Good layout and structure, I quite enjoy it.
Nancy: Mate of mine knows the vent system perfectly and owns this map. Personally, I get lost <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, these vents can be just as bad as good: marines own vents once jetpacks come out. It makes defending any of the hives against jp assult quite hard. I still like the map, but it can be annoying for both sides.
Hera: Love the map, and having seen the processing duel seige is being fixed I'll be very happy to see Hera games become more about controlling stratigic points like Holoroom. The welding on this map is pure genius; I love the idea of welding open cargo for an extended marine spawn.
Caged: Well, everyone has their own opinion of caged. I just find it so hard as marines: there's just no logical point to expand to with resources, and once they're up there's little you can do to protect them because they're not in hive locations or duel res points (not worth your time fortifying). But as aliens I find it hard going as well: generator and sewer are nasty because the res point is so far away: marines can snipe you at range and take it down easily. So many caged games I've played end in the 1st few minutes because the marines rush the lone alien res point and cripple the alien economy. With a few more res points I'd love the map, but it's just too resource poor for my liking.
Eclipse: Having seen the new shots of eclipse I'm happy to see most of my concerns answered. I've always liked the map although it can tend to be a little open. I love the camoflagued vents, I swear I'm still finding some these days <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nothing. Ah yes, nothing. This is a tough one. I do like the map, don't get me wrong. But when looking at an overview I have to wonder, why were so many res points concentrated down in the cargo hive area? It just strikes me as strange to have such a concentration down there in what became the obvious place for a marine expansion. My only other gripe is the Red Room. Whilst I can understand it being there it does place the alien team into a very tough position. Marine teams always go for cargo hive: if the aliens are "lucky" enough to have that as their starting hive then they're going to be hit hard. In any case most games see the marines getting cargo and it's swag of res points then fast teching to jetpacks. Alien teams have to very quickly throw up serious defenses in red room because once the marines take red room it's impossible to dig them out with 1 hive aliens. In most other maps, or even on nothing itself, stratigic areas generally have something to offer them, usually a res point. Red room offers nothing, but the aliens HAVE to get it or putting up viaduct is just a waste of res. I'd prefer to see red room removed but that's just my opinion, and I frequently have great nothing games anyway.
Looks like everything is on course <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I eagerly await to see what 1.1 will bring to the beloved maps of old.
<!--QuoteBegin--Papercut+Apr 3 2003, 06:44 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Papercut @ Apr 3 2003, 06:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The only map I really dislike is bast.
I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout.
Bah! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I LOVE bast, would love to see them keep the map as it is now, but perhaps with a few more vents and hidden rooms <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, the processing double-siege spot was never picked up on during playtesting, which isn't really surprising. I hope this won't affect your views of the map, but there are a lot less vent welds in Hera now (as well as a lot less vents, for instance, the only vent into the holoroom now is the one from the marine start.). This helped considerably to ease up the entity counts. One weld I'm considering putting in though is one to turn some lights on in the fog corridor, to make it a bit more inviting for marines...
Eh which corridor is that? But anyway, thats a cool idea to "weld" the lights on <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
"cmon hurry up and weld those lights on, we cant see crap!" "im hurrying, im hurrying!" *lights turn on* *they see alien dropping from ceiling* "AHHGGGHH!!! SHOOT HI...."
I am sad to hear that nancy is lost <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> There is no map in Natural Selection that I hate. Well, I used to not like Eclipse and Caged. But then I came to like caged. And now I like eclipse too. They are like a well known old house <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
NAncy has bugs I hear, and if the source is lost it cannot be fixed. It is sad. Nancy is a good map IMO.
I love seeing a map designer expressing his map in such blunt terms. If a person didn't know better, it'd sound like he was new to the map. "the foggy one" ... heh-heh.. that's great! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
According to my map overhead, it's called Maintenance Corridor. But now I'm going to call it "the foggy one". <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> papercut you puss lmao I like ns_bast lots of places to hide etc. hehe.The Refinery hive is one of my favorite places to hide.OH and "N" Corridor is a fun place to build an extra cc command console,minibase etc.
<!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> um couldn't you just take Valve Hammer and open ns_nancy and edit it? make whatever changes ya like?
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited April 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--KungFuDiscoMonkey+Apr 18 2003, 10:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuDiscoMonkey @ Apr 18 2003, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the NS maps are too complex to decompile. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, no. <b>Any</b> decompiled map has already lost all brush information through the CSG and BSP processes. Re-constructing that information is extremely difficult bordering on impossible.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, no. Any decompiled map has already lost all brush information through the CSG and BSP processes. Re-constructing that information is extremely difficult bordering on impossible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as a mapper I think thats good.
I dont want anyone ripping certain parts of a map that looks good. (If they want to learn they should atleast talk to the author or read some tutorials)
<!--QuoteBegin--Merkaba+Apr 13 2003, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Merkaba @ Apr 13 2003, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The foggy one ^_^ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> He means manteinance access...
Back on the bast topic... I really like the map but I find it very alien biased (the jp rushes is another kind of issue)... If marines don't manage to gather into refinery, aliens get the 3 rt's nearby. If marines get into ref, it isn't that easy to hold that 3 res... If aliens also hold floodwater for a while they got 2 rt's more and marines are done. I guess... one of the refinery rt's should be supressed or moved away.
Comments
I don't take offense to people not liking Eclipse, but I sure take offense to people going out of their way to state how much they don't like ANY map without even offering a slight hint why or how, in their eyes, it could be improved - those might as well be a direct personal attack on whoever made it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Without even the slightest hint why? I give up...thats just sad..."I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout." isnt 'the slighted hint' why he dosent like it?
I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout.
Bah! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He said "dislike", not "sucking" or "suck" or "sucks", I thought dislike was a polite way to say it.
Hate is an expression, it is not an insult or a complain. And you can see there, he stated EXACTLY why he didnt like it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not exactly. Nowhere in that short post did he say why the factors he listed indicate why he disliked the map.
Saying "I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout" simply states <i>what</i> he didn't like about it. Well, what is it about the texturing he didn't like? Why did the architecture fail to impress? And, in his opinion, what aspects of the layout were less than stellar?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, ns_bast really dislikes you. It hates your clothing, it hates the way you are built and the way your face is arranged.
See what it's like to give unconstructive criticism?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, IMO, summed it up perfectly - and example of "here's what I don't like, but I won't say why". Most mappers (...modellers, artists, etc...) are willing to take constructive criticism about their work, but "<i>I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout</i>" doesn't help the person responsible for that work do anything to improve it.
Anyway. To KuBaN's question: Veil has been playtested a few times, and the 5th revision is currently underway, but not included in the 1.1 build we received last night. People seem to like it so far, but the 5th build is notably different than the ones playtested (so different, in fact, that I completely skipped a playable version of build 4 so I had a middle-ground version in between Beta 3 and Beta 5). While I have every intention of completing it for 1.1, there is no guarantee that it will actually go into 1.1. I assume my status having made Eclipse won't hurt, but it's the map that'll be the determining factor of whether or not it goes in in the end.
There's a number of other solid maps that look to be good for 1.1, but the question remains, how many new ones will go in? I don't think anyone really knows at this point.
off course, with most people here coming from the CS community, thats not surprising.
I try and give good feedback when ever i can, and because the level designers of the NS maps ARE here in the forum to listen.
like, i could say i do not like Tanith. Why? Because the layout of it is too much hallways and not enough "central" areas. The res nodes are too far away from the marine spawn and get easily eaten by skulks. The vents are long and often give out directly on walls, exposing them if you're caught running in them as a skulk. The textures on the outside really do not match the rest of the NS maps. The ready room itself doesn't fit NS either... the list goes on.
Must admit that quote surprised me. I've always loved hera (i'm a real weld fan <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but processing tends to make it a bit of a no-show. Was the original intention to make processing a double seige point? Or was that just overlooked in playtesting?
Back onto other things, looking at the standard maps now:
Bast: Truely a great map, the layout is superb but I have one tiny gripe: the refinery hive. I think it's a little too easy for the marines to take down (regardless of what 1.1 brings with jetpacks, if they're still in the game refinery is still going to be easy to take down on the wing). I'm assuming that the marine spawn weld vent bug will be fixed (the one that breaks the weld with 1 gorge spit). Other than that great work
Tanith: Why do people complain about this map? It can tend to be a little open, granted, but I generally have no problem ambushing or assulting, either on marines or aliens. The sattilite weld is just pure genius, I'd love to see more stuff like that in maps. Good layout and structure, I quite enjoy it.
Nancy: Mate of mine knows the vent system perfectly and owns this map. Personally, I get lost <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Also, these vents can be just as bad as good: marines own vents once jetpacks come out. It makes defending any of the hives against jp assult quite hard. I still like the map, but it can be annoying for both sides.
Hera: Love the map, and having seen the processing duel seige is being fixed I'll be very happy to see Hera games become more about controlling stratigic points like Holoroom. The welding on this map is pure genius; I love the idea of welding open cargo for an extended marine spawn.
Caged: Well, everyone has their own opinion of caged. I just find it so hard as marines: there's just no logical point to expand to with resources, and once they're up there's little you can do to protect them because they're not in hive locations or duel res points (not worth your time fortifying). But as aliens I find it hard going as well: generator and sewer are nasty because the res point is so far away: marines can snipe you at range and take it down easily. So many caged games I've played end in the 1st few minutes because the marines rush the lone alien res point and cripple the alien economy. With a few more res points I'd love the map, but it's just too resource poor for my liking.
Eclipse: Having seen the new shots of eclipse I'm happy to see most of my concerns answered. I've always liked the map although it can tend to be a little open. I love the camoflagued vents, I swear I'm still finding some these days <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nothing. Ah yes, nothing. This is a tough one. I do like the map, don't get me wrong. But when looking at an overview I have to wonder, why were so many res points concentrated down in the cargo hive area? It just strikes me as strange to have such a concentration down there in what became the obvious place for a marine expansion. My only other gripe is the Red Room. Whilst I can understand it being there it does place the alien team into a very tough position. Marine teams always go for cargo hive: if the aliens are "lucky" enough to have that as their starting hive then they're going to be hit hard. In any case most games see the marines getting cargo and it's swag of res points then fast teching to jetpacks. Alien teams have to very quickly throw up serious defenses in red room because once the marines take red room it's impossible to dig them out with 1 hive aliens. In most other maps, or even on nothing itself, stratigic areas generally have something to offer them, usually a res point. Red room offers nothing, but the aliens HAVE to get it or putting up viaduct is just a waste of res. I'd prefer to see red room removed but that's just my opinion, and I frequently have great nothing games anyway.
Looks like everything is on course <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I eagerly await to see what 1.1 will bring to the beloved maps of old.
I hate the texturing, the architecture and the layout.
Bah! <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I LOVE bast, would love to see them keep the map as it is now, but perhaps with a few more vents and hidden rooms <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
"cmon hurry up and weld those lights on, we cant see crap!"
"im hurrying, im hurrying!"
*lights turn on*
*they see alien dropping from ceiling*
"AHHGGGHH!!! SHOOT HI...."
NAncy has bugs I hear, and if the source is lost it cannot be fixed. It is sad. Nancy is a good map IMO.
According to my map overhead, it's called Maintenance Corridor. But now I'm going to call it "the foggy one". <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, no. <b>Any</b> decompiled map has already lost all brush information through the CSG and BSP processes. Re-constructing that information is extremely difficult bordering on impossible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as a mapper I think thats good.
I dont want anyone ripping certain parts of a map that looks good. (If they want to learn they should atleast talk to the author or read some tutorials)
He means manteinance access...
Back on the bast topic... I really like the map but I find it very alien biased (the jp rushes is another kind of issue)... If marines don't manage to gather into refinery, aliens get the 3 rt's nearby. If marines get into ref, it isn't that easy to hold that 3 res...
If aliens also hold floodwater for a while they got 2 rt's more and marines are done. I guess... one of the refinery rt's should be supressed or moved away.