As I said in another thread I have taken a real liking to this combination, I was wondering if anyone else has been using it regularly? if so how effetive are they finding it?
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Why would you use sensory as the second upgrade? Once you have two hives, you need to be attacking constantly, and sensory isn't much help there.
Movement first has much of the same drawback as sensory first in the early game - if the marines lock down two hives, it's mostly gg because you can't attack effectivly. Silence is better than cloaking, but has the same weak spot as cloaking, with MT negating much of its usefulness. The real advantage with movement first compared to sensory first is that you can pick defense as your second hive upgrade and have the normal powerful aliens for the midgame.
I haven't had any experience with it, but I'd imagine that movement first would be far more viable than sensory, and in the right hands maybe even a match for defense. Have you seen how fast a skulk with celerity goes? It makes bullet dodging way easier.
On the other hand, it's not so often that "the right hands" would be around to use the chambers. Most people can barely skulk, never mind dodge bullets :/
The fact is, after having two hives, the main focus of the kharaa team is either taking down the third hive or assaulting the marines main base. At this point, any combat that ensues will likely be done with teched up marines, who can well withstand sneak attacks. Therefore it's usually common practice to have Defense as one of the first two chambers to go up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Movement first has much of the same drawback as sensory first in the early game - if the marines lock down two hives, it's mostly gg because you can't attack effectivly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you don't think insanely fast skulks and Lerks with a nearly constant stream of spikes can take out an expansion?
Most hives have at least 1 Lerk 'sweet spot' where it can perch and fire spikes all day long. Bast's refinery, for example, has two areas at the two upper ends of the furnace where a single Lerk can systematically take out just about every structure in the room while staying well outside of turret range. Caged's Sewer and Tanith's Waste Handling both have ceiling beams, but you're usually in range of turrets when you stick your nose out.
Skulks with lvl3 Celerity are damned hard for the turrets to track, so brush up on your circle-strafing skills - I've taken out 4 turrets in one sweep and managed to get away without dying.
Trying to gain momentum with only one hive is difficult and usually frustrating, but it's do-able. You've got movement first, so get your Gorge to set up strong defenses at the hive, then have him move out with you as a group. Once you reach a strikepoint, build a movement chamber with the DC's and OC's in case the marines try and move into your last hive.
If all else fails, Gorge rush! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Seriously! Adrenalized Group-Healspam and OC's can rip apart just about any defenses without too much difficulty.
Sychopant, u are a fool if u think celerity saves u from turrets. Sure one turret is easy to circle strafe. While that turret can't track u, cos it has too small turning speed, others can, because a turret 10 meters away from the one u are circle strafing will need to turn only 10 degrees to get u. Granted it will still miss most of the time, but there are ussually 4 of them and it doesn't take much to take down a skulk without carapace. And I think u can circe strafe without celerity.
<!--QuoteBegin--Spura+Feb 11 2003, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spura @ Feb 11 2003, 10:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sychopant, u are a fool if u think celerity saves u from turrets. Sure one turret is easy to circle strafe. While that turret can't track u, cos it has too small turning speed, others can, because a turret 10 meters away from the one u are circle strafing will need to turn only 10 degrees to get u. Granted it will still miss most of the time, but there are ussually 4 of them and it doesn't take much to take down a skulk without carapace. And I think u can circe strafe without celerity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Memorize the location of the buildings, with some practice you can figure 8 around every turret in an area biting away, never taking a hit unless you mess up (or good turret placement)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sure one turret is easy to circle strafe. While that turret can't track u, cos it has too small turning speed, others can, because a turret 10 meters away from the one u are circle strafing will need to turn only 10 degrees to get u.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're concentrating on one turret at a time, then you <i>deserve</i> to get tracked and shot.
Focusing on one turret at a time basically keeps you in one spot, giving other turrets lots of freedom to track you down. A celeritized skulk is hard to track <i>as long as he keeps moving</i>, so make use of that speed - bite twice while strafing, then run to the next turret and do the same thing.
Sure, it'll take a while, but it'll keep you alive. When a turret gets low in HP, bite it a few times and it'll fall. Once you have a blindspot on the TF, tear it down.
If you start getting tracked more often than you'd like, run away. Heal if possible, but at least give you fingers a rest for a few seconds. There's a lot of button-pushing involved, so you're bound to make a mistake or two before finishing the job.
With two celeritized Skulks, this strafe-sweep tactic works wonderfully. Just keep moving and snapping at a turret once or twice before moving to the next one, and your comrade will do the same. After a few sweeps, the turret will fall.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sychopant, u are a fool if u think celerity saves u from turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm a fool for using a tactic you never thought of, then so be it. I'll simply continue being the fool that can, and has, cleared out a turret farm single-handedly.
Well, I agree that Movement is a good start. Gotta love those skulks w/ lvl3 celerity. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> But I think Defense should be one of the first 2. Just like Xpander said, aliens usually need to really get on the offense after the second hive. Either to take the 3rd hive or attack the marine base. Sensory just isn't what fits here. I don't care if movement or defense come first, but sensory should be 3rd.
But as always... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This will all change in 1.1, so wait and see. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...this debate will change soon.
Going movement first can give you the option of defence/sensory at the second hive. Should you be steaming ahead to victory get sensory and have some fun or if the marines have a hive and are attacking one of your hives, go for defence.
Silence and cloaking it very nice as a skulk. Sure motion tracking can counter it but it only works in the direction the marine is looking.
I'm not trying to say that M/S/D is better than D/M/S but the latter is almost always expected by marines now. Doing something different will be unexpected which will give you suprise which will give you the upperhand and that can lead to victory if you work together.
I just got out of a game where we had Defense first, Sensory second. Naturally, just about everyone whined when the sensory chamber started flashing on the screen, insisting that the Fades and Lerks <b>need</b> adrenaline and the Skulks <b>need</b> celerity. There were even a few comments of "gg", "stupid n00b gorge", and "well we lost". <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cloaked Fades were able to swipe at marines as they walked by right next to them, and phantom Skulks were appearing out of nowhere to leap and bite marines to death. The marines were afraid to leave their base because they <i>knew</i> they'd be killed with little chance of killing off even one of the attackers.
I even managed to Leap to the area near the IP's, cloak, and then parasite marines as they respawned (this was on Eclipse, and that area is great for cloaking).
Sometimes. The longer you cloak, the more "cloak juice" you store up, so if you just sit there for a minute you can make some movements without de-cloaking. You could either move a step or two, or parasite a marine without decloaking.
In 1.04, I cant move at all -except for looking around- when cloaked, or I'll decloak. Am I the only one that has this, finds it out of place, and extremely annoying??? EDIT: this gives me an idea... doesn't it make sense that attacking is a small enough movement not to decloak you? So I mean, you can't move without decloak(in the way it is now at least), but you can attack any amount without decloaking... Its not like cloak is overpowered, now is it... Oh and Sycophant, about leaping to near the IPs, didn't they have an observatory? Or did they try to tech rush with arms lab etc?
A Skulk standing still in a dark area is not really noticable when 'visible', and impossible to see when cloaked (unless a marine uses the flashlight).
Honestly, I was only in that spot for about 20 seconds. A marine was welding an IP with his back to me. I just couldn't resist. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and Sycophant, about leaping to near the IPs, didn't they have an observatory? Or did they try to tech rush with arms lab etc? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was basically at the end of the game anyways. All they had was 2 IP's, an armory, and the command chair left. We had the cloaked Fades and Skulks for the past 5 minutes, so their base was in hard shape.
I just wanted to try standing in the marine's base and annoying them in my own twisted way. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have chuckle bound to 'q', and using it during that game was immensely entertaining. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
you all say this but to be honest i ain`t really done any games like this, but i`d have to say if the way to max the capabilities of fade and really a lerk they do need ardeline, they poor buggers would be gunned down without cara or redemp. if your standing at the end of a wide corridor and acid shooting down it...
but yeah, cloak is VeerYY fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> stand at the inside of a corner as fade, i see em walk up close, look just above me, i stand up and go whack whack, man they are scareed Sh**^&less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and skulks celerity i seen a lot more bullets hit the wall, however without the caraspace then i probably would ave been dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if your standing at the end of a wide corridor and acid shooting down it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They should be cloaked...If the fade/skulk/lerk was dumb enough to uncloak before the marine came to them, they need to be taught the lesson that you DON'T uncloak before your meal comes to you.
for me, i usually have movement first or second at very latest, its great to have silence in the beginning before the rines have motion tracking because you can always sneak up on them and get easy kills no matter how big the group.
Personally I love using alternative build orders but.......to use them effectively your team needs to have exceptional teamwork. Sadly this is not the case in 9 out of 10 teams. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I find it VERY amusing that some people even consider a 2nd hive alien team without defense chambers. Rofl. Sycophant somehow thinks that it is good because lerks and skulks can take down turrets... Wow, ANYONE can take down turrets, they are WORTHLESS. One single marine there, and there is NO chance for a non-carapace lerk to take down a single turret. Sure if the marines are EXTREMELY stupid and CANNOT aim.
Then when/if the aliens get the 2nd hive... Wow, your fades are USELESS. A 1 RU cost marine can put out more damage/time, AND take more in return in non-melee fights. Well do not start going off on how marines cannot see the aliens and other such crap. Cloaked aliens are visible. If a marine gets within melee distance without noticing the fade, then it is pretty much gg anyway. Then if marines get jetpacks, say gg aliens.
Sens and movement just DO NOT work.
Oh, and one more thing, before you all start babbling about playstyles and other irrelevant junk, remember, that just because there are three options that they are all equal. Some are just plain better.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 12 2003, 01:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 12 2003, 01:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or just be God at NS like me because I can do the "impossible" and win with sensory first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody ever said it was impossible <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
DISCLAIMER: ok, maybe some really stupid people did. nyah.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it VERY amusing that some people even consider a 2nd hive alien team without defense chambers. Rofl.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you truly believe that you <b>need</b> a defense chamber upgrade to survive and be effective? If so, it's just as well you quit the game and learn gardening.
Not every game will follow the "D>M>S" formula (thank god!), so you'll save yourself a great deal of frustration by trying to tackle a weed instead of yelling obsceneties at the "n00b gorge" who didn't make Defensive with either of the first two hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sycophant somehow thinks that it is good because lerks and skulks can take down turrets... Wow, ANYONE can take down turrets, they are WORTHLESS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. So how is disabling the obstacle between you and another clear hive location a bad thing? Fades should be out killing midtech marines, not wasting time doing something Skulks and Lerks can just as easily do. If there's too much for a Skulk and/or Lerk to handle, <i>then</i> call in the Fade reinforcements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One single marine there, and there is NO chance for a non-carapace lerk to take down a single turret. Sure if the marines are EXTREMELY stupid and CANNOT aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised at how effective an adrenalized Lerk is at clearing out most hives. Most hives have at least one point where you can perch until the marine is in your sight. Spike him a bit and hide if/when he starts shooting back. Also, a good Lerk has very little trouble gliding past and biting (this is still beyond my ability to master <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->).
If you think you can't survive without a Defensive upgrade, try changing your tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sycophant+Feb 11 2003, 09:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sycophant @ Feb 11 2003, 09:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. So you truly believe that you <b>need</b> a defense chamber upgrade to survive and be effective? If so, it's just as well you quit the game and learn gardening.
2. Not every game will follow the "D>M>S" formula (thank god!), so you'll save yourself a great deal of frustration by trying to tackle a weed instead of yelling obsceneties at the "n00b gorge" who didn't make Defensive with either of the first two hives.
3. Exactly. So how is disabling the obstacle between you and another clear hive location a bad thing? Fades should be out killing midtech marines, not wasting time doing something Skulks and Lerks can just as easily do. If there's too much for a Skulk and/or Lerk to handle, <i>then</i> call in the Fade reinforcements.
4. You'd be surprised at how effective an adrenalized Lerk is at clearing out most hives. Most hives have at least one point where you can perch until the marine is in your sight. Spike him a bit and hide if/when he starts shooting back. Also, a good Lerk has very little trouble gliding past and biting (this is still beyond my ability to master <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->).
5. If you think you can't survive without a Defensive upgrade, try changing your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> *quotes numbered for easy reference...*
1. Yes you do need defense first or second. I have disagreements with sensory as anything but third-hive, but that is for another thread. Defense is necessary for EVERY alien.
2. No, not every game will, but the ones with good players who realize that not all chambers are equal will. Immediately claiming that I yell and scream at gorges doing other things serves the exact opposite of what you intended. It makes you look like a moron, as you just claim that I do this with no evidence whatsoever, or having played a SINGLE game with me.
3. Anyone can disable the obstacle, but the carapace skulk can do it faster than any other hive-one alien due to the increased durability. If the turrets are placed properly, you WILL get hit, celerity or not, and if there is a SINGLE marine at the outpost, do not count on killing him and a turret unless you bring along two to three buddies.
4. And adren-lerk is effective until he gets popped by a pistol in (4-5, not 100% sure) shots, which is BEFORE he can react due to info transfer time. (ping)
5. Change my tactics? Somehow evade shots that ARE going to hit whether you like it or not? Sorry, cant happen.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 4. And adren-lerk is effective until he gets popped by a pistol in (4-5, not 100% sure) shots <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5/4/4/4 pistol shots, 9/9/8/7 LMG bullets. Good guess! :-)
Lerks without lvl 3 carapace dies so fast it's not even funny. With lvl 3 carap, you are looking at 30/20/20/20 lmg shots instead.
I'd say that the lerk is the alien that are most dependent on the D/M/S build style, as it is useless without carapace and crippled without adrenaline.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Yes you do need defense first or second.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't it you that said ..(see quote).. ? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and one more thing, before you all start babbling about playstyles and other irrelevant junk, remember, that just because there are three options that they are all equal. Some are just plain better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better for whom? I agree that Defense early-on has nice upgrades for early-game (ie: lets you live longer), but I don't agree that it's carved-in-stone that Defense <b>has</b> to be one of the first two. The other two chambers provide different advantages that <i>can</i> allow you to accomplish the same thing (ie: killing marines/turrets/etc).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Immediately claiming that I yell and scream at gorges doing other things serves the exact opposite of what you intended. It makes you look like a moron, as you just claim that I do this with no evidence whatsoever, or having played a SINGLE game with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for the assumption; probably 90% of the players I've played with will whine as soon as they realize a Defense upgrade won't be available until 2nd or 3rd hive. In this case, I suppose I deserved to be called moron for the assumption. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Anyone can disable the obstacle, but the carapace skulk can do it faster than any other hive-one alien due to the increased durability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace will let you take more turret bullets, which you'll most likely take due to a slower movement speed. Celerity will let you move faster, and <i>if done well</i>, will cause more/all turret bullets to miss. Like I said a few lines up, the two upgrades will ideally allow you to accomplish the same goal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the turrets are placed properly, you WILL get hit, celerity or not, and if there is a SINGLE marine at the outpost, do not count on killing him and a turret unless you bring along two to three buddies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the case of a well-defended outpost, yes, you'll need backup. The Skulk-speedstrafe thing is much more effective at taking out smaller outposts (ie: tf, 3/4/5 turrets, siege). Sometimes even a hive, if others were already after taking out the phasegate and marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--V-MAN+Feb 11 2003, 12:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (V-MAN @ Feb 11 2003, 12:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As I said in another thread I have taken a real liking to this combination, I was wondering if anyone else has been using it regularly? if so how effetive are they finding it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sensory would be pretty much useless as second chamber, you either want it as last, or if you REALLY REALLY want it, first.
Comments
Movement first has much of the same drawback as sensory first in the early game - if the marines lock down two hives, it's mostly gg because you can't attack effectivly. Silence is better than cloaking, but has the same weak spot as cloaking, with MT negating much of its usefulness.
The real advantage with movement first compared to sensory first is that you can pick defense as your second hive upgrade and have the normal powerful aliens for the midgame.
On the other hand, it's not so often that "the right hands" would be around to use the chambers. Most people can barely skulk, never mind dodge bullets :/
This will all change in 1.1, so wait and see.
So you don't think insanely fast skulks and Lerks with a nearly constant stream of spikes can take out an expansion?
Most hives have at least 1 Lerk 'sweet spot' where it can perch and fire spikes all day long. Bast's refinery, for example, has two areas at the two upper ends of the furnace where a single Lerk can systematically take out just about every structure in the room while staying well outside of turret range. Caged's Sewer and Tanith's Waste Handling both have ceiling beams, but you're usually in range of turrets when you stick your nose out.
Skulks with lvl3 Celerity are damned hard for the turrets to track, so brush up on your circle-strafing skills - I've taken out 4 turrets in one sweep and managed to get away without dying.
Trying to gain momentum with only one hive is difficult and usually frustrating, but it's do-able. You've got movement first, so get your Gorge to set up strong defenses at the hive, then have him move out with you as a group. Once you reach a strikepoint, build a movement chamber with the DC's and OC's in case the marines try and move into your last hive.
If all else fails, Gorge rush! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Seriously! Adrenalized Group-Healspam and OC's can rip apart just about any defenses without too much difficulty.
Memorize the location of the buildings, with some practice you can figure 8 around every turret in an area biting away, never taking a hit unless you mess up (or good turret placement)
If you're concentrating on one turret at a time, then you <i>deserve</i> to get tracked and shot.
Focusing on one turret at a time basically keeps you in one spot, giving other turrets lots of freedom to track you down. A celeritized skulk is hard to track <i>as long as he keeps moving</i>, so make use of that speed - bite twice while strafing, then run to the next turret and do the same thing.
Sure, it'll take a while, but it'll keep you alive. When a turret gets low in HP, bite it a few times and it'll fall. Once you have a blindspot on the TF, tear it down.
If you start getting tracked more often than you'd like, run away. Heal if possible, but at least give you fingers a rest for a few seconds. There's a lot of button-pushing involved, so you're bound to make a mistake or two before finishing the job.
With two celeritized Skulks, this strafe-sweep tactic works wonderfully. Just keep moving and snapping at a turret once or twice before moving to the next one, and your comrade will do the same. After a few sweeps, the turret will fall.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sychopant, u are a fool if u think celerity saves u from turrets. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm a fool for using a tactic you never thought of, then so be it. I'll simply continue being the fool that can, and has, cleared out a turret farm single-handedly.
But as always...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This will all change in 1.1, so wait and see. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...this debate will change soon.
Silence and cloaking it very nice as a skulk. Sure motion tracking can counter it but it only works in the direction the marine is looking.
I'm not trying to say that M/S/D is better than D/M/S but the latter is almost always expected by marines now. Doing something different will be unexpected which will give you suprise which will give you the upperhand and that can lead to victory if you work together.
Cloaked Fades were able to swipe at marines as they walked by right next to them, and phantom Skulks were appearing out of nowhere to leap and bite marines to death. The marines were afraid to leave their base because they <i>knew</i> they'd be killed with little chance of killing off even one of the attackers.
I even managed to Leap to the area near the IP's, cloak, and then parasite marines as they respawned (this was on Eclipse, and that area is great for cloaking).
EDIT: this gives me an idea... doesn't it make sense that attacking is a small enough movement not to decloak you? So I mean, you can't move without decloak(in the way it is now at least), but you can attack any amount without decloaking... Its not like cloak is overpowered, now is it...
Oh and Sycophant, about leaping to near the IPs, didn't they have an observatory? Or did they try to tech rush with arms lab etc?
Honestly, I was only in that spot for about 20 seconds. A marine was welding an IP with his back to me. I just couldn't resist. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
This was basically at the end of the game anyways. All they had was 2 IP's, an armory, and the command chair left. We had the cloaked Fades and Skulks for the past 5 minutes, so their base was in hard shape.
I just wanted to try standing in the marine's base and annoying them in my own twisted way. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have chuckle bound to 'q', and using it during that game was immensely entertaining. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
you all say this but to be honest i ain`t really done any games like this, but i`d have to say if the way to max the capabilities of fade and really a lerk they do need ardeline, they poor buggers would be gunned down without cara or redemp. if your standing at the end of a wide corridor and acid shooting down it...
but yeah, cloak is VeerYY fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> stand at the inside of a corner as fade, i see em walk up close, look just above me, i stand up and go whack whack, man they are scareed Sh**^&less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
and skulks celerity i seen a lot more bullets hit the wall, however without the caraspace then i probably would ave been dead.
They should be cloaked...If the fade/skulk/lerk was dumb enough to uncloak before the marine came to them, they need to be taught the lesson that you DON'T uncloak before your meal comes to you.
Sycophant somehow thinks that it is good because lerks and skulks can take down turrets... Wow, ANYONE can take down turrets, they are WORTHLESS. One single marine there, and there is NO chance for a non-carapace lerk to take down a single turret. Sure if the marines are EXTREMELY stupid and CANNOT aim.
Then when/if the aliens get the 2nd hive... Wow, your fades are USELESS. A 1 RU cost marine can put out more damage/time, AND take more in return in non-melee fights. Well do not start going off on how marines cannot see the aliens and other such crap. Cloaked aliens are visible. If a marine gets within melee distance without noticing the fade, then it is pretty much gg anyway. Then if marines get jetpacks, say gg aliens.
Sens and movement just DO NOT work.
Oh, and one more thing, before you all start babbling about playstyles and other irrelevant junk, remember, that just because there are three options that they are all equal. Some are just plain better.
Nobody ever said it was impossible <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
DISCLAIMER: ok, maybe some really stupid people did. nyah.
So you truly believe that you <b>need</b> a defense chamber upgrade to survive and be effective? If so, it's just as well you quit the game and learn gardening.
Not every game will follow the "D>M>S" formula (thank god!), so you'll save yourself a great deal of frustration by trying to tackle a weed instead of yelling obsceneties at the "n00b gorge" who didn't make Defensive with either of the first two hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sycophant somehow thinks that it is good because lerks and skulks can take down turrets... Wow, ANYONE can take down turrets, they are WORTHLESS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. So how is disabling the obstacle between you and another clear hive location a bad thing? Fades should be out killing midtech marines, not wasting time doing something Skulks and Lerks can just as easily do. If there's too much for a Skulk and/or Lerk to handle, <i>then</i> call in the Fade reinforcements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One single marine there, and there is NO chance for a non-carapace lerk to take down a single turret. Sure if the marines are EXTREMELY stupid and CANNOT aim.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be surprised at how effective an adrenalized Lerk is at clearing out most hives. Most hives have at least one point where you can perch until the marine is in your sight. Spike him a bit and hide if/when he starts shooting back. Also, a good Lerk has very little trouble gliding past and biting (this is still beyond my ability to master <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->).
If you think you can't survive without a Defensive upgrade, try changing your tactics.
2. Not every game will follow the "D>M>S" formula (thank god!), so you'll save yourself a great deal of frustration by trying to tackle a weed instead of yelling obsceneties at the "n00b gorge" who didn't make Defensive with either of the first two hives.
3. Exactly. So how is disabling the obstacle between you and another clear hive location a bad thing? Fades should be out killing midtech marines, not wasting time doing something Skulks and Lerks can just as easily do. If there's too much for a Skulk and/or Lerk to handle, <i>then</i> call in the Fade reinforcements.
4. You'd be surprised at how effective an adrenalized Lerk is at clearing out most hives. Most hives have at least one point where you can perch until the marine is in your sight. Spike him a bit and hide if/when he starts shooting back. Also, a good Lerk has very little trouble gliding past and biting (this is still beyond my ability to master <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->).
5. If you think you can't survive without a Defensive upgrade, try changing your tactics. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*quotes numbered for easy reference...*
1. Yes you do need defense first or second. I have disagreements with sensory as anything but third-hive, but that is for another thread. Defense is necessary for EVERY alien.
2. No, not every game will, but the ones with good players who realize that not all chambers are equal will. Immediately claiming that I yell and scream at gorges doing other things serves the exact opposite of what you intended. It makes you look like a moron, as you just claim that I do this with no evidence whatsoever, or having played a SINGLE game with me.
3. Anyone can disable the obstacle, but the carapace skulk can do it faster than any other hive-one alien due to the increased durability. If the turrets are placed properly, you WILL get hit, celerity or not, and if there is a SINGLE marine at the outpost, do not count on killing him and a turret unless you bring along two to three buddies.
4. And adren-lerk is effective until he gets popped by a pistol in (4-5, not 100% sure) shots, which is BEFORE he can react due to info transfer time. (ping)
5. Change my tactics? Somehow evade shots that ARE going to hit whether you like it or not? Sorry, cant happen.
4. And adren-lerk is effective until he gets popped by a pistol in (4-5, not 100% sure) shots
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
5/4/4/4 pistol shots, 9/9/8/7 LMG bullets. Good guess! :-)
Lerks without lvl 3 carapace dies so fast it's not even funny. With lvl 3 carap, you are looking at 30/20/20/20 lmg shots instead.
I'd say that the lerk is the alien that are most dependent on the D/M/S build style, as it is useless without carapace and crippled without adrenaline.
Crippled without Cara, but not adren. Silence Lerk is actually really NASTY too.
Wasn't it you that said ..(see quote).. ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and one more thing, before you all start babbling about playstyles and other irrelevant junk, remember, that just because there are three options that they are all equal. Some are just plain better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Better for whom? I agree that Defense early-on has nice upgrades for early-game (ie: lets you live longer), but I don't agree that it's carved-in-stone that Defense <b>has</b> to be one of the first two. The other two chambers provide different advantages that <i>can</i> allow you to accomplish the same thing (ie: killing marines/turrets/etc).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Immediately claiming that I yell and scream at gorges doing other things serves the exact opposite of what you intended. It makes you look like a moron, as you just claim that I do this with no evidence whatsoever, or having played a SINGLE game with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry for the assumption; probably 90% of the players I've played with will whine as soon as they realize a Defense upgrade won't be available until 2nd or 3rd hive. In this case, I suppose I deserved to be called moron for the assumption. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Anyone can disable the obstacle, but the carapace skulk can do it faster than any other hive-one alien due to the increased durability.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Carapace will let you take more turret bullets, which you'll most likely take due to a slower movement speed. Celerity will let you move faster, and <i>if done well</i>, will cause more/all turret bullets to miss. Like I said a few lines up, the two upgrades will ideally allow you to accomplish the same goal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the turrets are placed properly, you WILL get hit, celerity or not, and if there is a SINGLE marine at the outpost, do not count on killing him and a turret unless you bring along two to three buddies.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the case of a well-defended outpost, yes, you'll need backup. The Skulk-speedstrafe thing is much more effective at taking out smaller outposts (ie: tf, 3/4/5 turrets, siege). Sometimes even a hive, if others were already after taking out the phasegate and marines.
Sensory would be pretty much useless as second chamber, you either want it as last, or if you REALLY REALLY want it, first.