Design Team, I Have To Know.
SniperSkunk
Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7644Members
Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7644Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is this how Phase Gates were intended?</div> Marines spawn. Drop two portals, armory, Observatory, Phase gate. They rush one hive, phase gate, bam, that hive is theirs.
They build up that hive, go to the next, bam, that one's theirs too once the phase goes up.
It's a tactic that's almost utterly impossible to stop. So long as the marines can jump through the gate, they can take anywhere on the map they want. If the aliens do manage to take down the marines, the marines drop a few more IP's, and bam, they're spawning in 4 or 5 to our ONE.
I've just seen four straight games, on two separate servers, lost in exactly this way each and every time, because the aliens just can't spawn as fast or move from one place to another as fast as the marines do. For 20 RP and 10 seconds build time, the marines can instaspawn there, practically.
Is this how they're meant to be used? It's a good strategy, but how can the aliens compete? They spawn in slower, have no instant teleport to get to the problem areas... in terms of speed it's just impossible to keep up.
They build up that hive, go to the next, bam, that one's theirs too once the phase goes up.
It's a tactic that's almost utterly impossible to stop. So long as the marines can jump through the gate, they can take anywhere on the map they want. If the aliens do manage to take down the marines, the marines drop a few more IP's, and bam, they're spawning in 4 or 5 to our ONE.
I've just seen four straight games, on two separate servers, lost in exactly this way each and every time, because the aliens just can't spawn as fast or move from one place to another as fast as the marines do. For 20 RP and 10 seconds build time, the marines can instaspawn there, practically.
Is this how they're meant to be used? It's a good strategy, but how can the aliens compete? They spawn in slower, have no instant teleport to get to the problem areas... in terms of speed it's just impossible to keep up.
Comments
Also, the resource model doesn't seem to work right for larger games either - in a 16v16 game, the marines tech up 4 times faster than in a 4v4 game, and can spam 4 time more turrets/sieges/phasegates... just doesn't seem right to me.
I was just in 2 games, played 1 side alien, 1 side marine (commander). When I played as comm we did exactly as you said, dropped a phase... got to hive dropped another, but the aliens were a pretty good team, they stuck together and hit us when we weren't expecting it. Yes marines won the game but it was by no means one sided. It was actually one of the best games I've ever played swinging back and forth a few times.
The game is balanced fine for the most part IMHO, it's the players that make the games great or not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just my $0.02
Daveyboy
I was just in 2 games, played 1 side alien, 1 side marine (commander). When I played as comm we did exactly as you said, dropped a phase... got to hive dropped another, but the aliens were a pretty good team, they stuck together and hit us when we weren't expecting it. Yes marines won the game but it was by no means one sided. It was actually one of the best games I've ever played swinging back and forth a few times.
The game is balanced fine for the most part IMHO, it's the players that make the games great or not <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just my $0.02
Daveyboy<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your 2 cents is worth a million, the game is completely balanced if the commander knows what hes doin.
perhaps Flayra will change some aspect of it - being the cost, build time, research - what ever.
however, don't think just because Flayra doesn't respond, he isn't listening ...
give your opinion - if it's warented, I'm sure it will change. Don't bager the man though, let him enjoy a little time off - I can just imagine the size of his inbox ... every hour or so 5000 e-mails ...
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
With higher level of players, Marines get resources rediculously fast. I have played about 10 games as aliens on 14-20 player servers, with GOOD players all talking on comm, and they all went the same way:
-Marines build a little in base, always observatory, and quickly take one hive with a Phase Gate. They don't even bother with capping resources. The initial RP, along with maybe 1 or 2 RP at the hives they take are more than enough.
-All attempts by the skulks are futile, as LMG mow down skulks like they were grass.
-Marines quickly hold 2 hives, with well built turret farms and a phase gate.
-Skulks/Fades attempt to retake hives for the next 10-20 minutes, while the Marines upgrade everything, brush off any attacks, and weld what little damage was done to the turrets. Phase Gates ensure no areas are vulnerable. As soon as a weakness in any defence is found, 5 Marines teleport in and kill the aliens, then remedy the weakness.
-The game then quickly ends once the Marines have Jetpacks/HA/HMG. Usually a jetty just flys onto our only hive, and takes in out in a clip or two.
-ding, ding, dead
For something that takes you apart atom by atom and rebuilds you at another location, it sure is cheap, quick to put together, and dang sturdy!
With higher level of players, Marines get resources rediculously fast. I have played about 10 games as aliens on 14-20 player servers, with GOOD players all talking on comm, and they all went the same way:
-Marines build a little in base, always observatory, and quickly take one hive with a Phase Gate. They don't even bother with capping resources. The initial RP, along with maybe 1 or 2 RP at the hives they take are more than enough.
-All attempts by the skulks are futile, as LMG mow down skulks like they were grass.
-Marines quickly hold 2 hives, with well built turret farms and a phase gate.
-Skulks/Fades attempt to retake hives for the next 10-20 minutes, while the Marines upgrade everything, brush off any attacks, and weld what little damage was done to the turrets. Phase Gates ensure no areas are vulnerable. As soon as a weakness in any defence is found, 5 Marines teleport in and kill the aliens, then remedy the weakness.
-The game then quickly ends once the Marines have Jetpacks/HA/HMG. Usually a jetty just flys onto our only hive, and takes in out in a clip or two.
-ding, ding, dead<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what I see all the time. The only chance a skulk has to take out a sentry turret is to circle-strafe it while munching, or to get 3 or more of them and just zerg rush a sentry (Which then means slow spawn in times afterwards in which time the marines could have no problem replacing the destroyed sentry). The only chance the team usually has of stopping this is blocking the routes to the hives, but usually maps have so many routes that to cover them all the skulks would be spread fairly thin; leaving one or two skulks defending an entrance against a rush of 4 or 5 marines covering each other.
Sadly, as someone who joined at 1.02, I honestly don't know what it was like on release <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just don't see a way to beat a strategy like that. You can't stop the marines from expanding into the hive as you never know which hive and you spread yourself thin covering them all... and they have no problems beating you when you're spread thin. Once they get a hive, get a phase gate up... that hive is all but lost, as the marines can rush to its aid instantly... throw the turrets in the mix and the aliens NEED the fades just to get past it all; the skulks just can't stand up to it... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
But more often than not the fades don't come as the marines expand with the phase gates into the 2nd hive faster than the aliens expand into it with the hive itself... which leaves little room for the alien team which has become boxed in and is little more than a bunch of powerful-hitting, weak-skinned skulks that can zerg unsuccessfully the rest of the game.
The simple fact is <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> > <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
If marines quick-expand and keep the Aliens from getting anything higher than skulk/lerk , the game is easily won. The reason this didnt come out sooner is because COMMs initially just tried to cap resource points at base, and fortify a good defence. Marines really don't even have to farm resources on big servers. I've seen a Marines team sensor sweep the hives 30 seconds into a game, then built phase gates in the 2 unoccupied hives within 2 minutes.
And since a group of 3-4 marines have nothing to fear from a group of 3-4 skulks, retaking a hive was a joke.
Now I know Aliens do win games, and I know everyone has there 'OMG I killed 2,030 Marines one time as a skulk!!!!11" story. The fact is a compitent Marines team will win 95% of the time with this tactic. I have played many many games, and this is the way I ahve seen it. If Marines do not win, it is almost always becuase either the team didn't listen or the COMM really sucked.
Regards
SilentMurderer
what else can ya do
-d$
cos.. it sure was getting stale winning as aliens every round <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
time to rethink teh tactics mmmh?
only problem with this "evolution of the species" tactics thing ( <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->) is that.. really tactics never get beyond the level of a primary school game of football <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> (~edit: on a public server only of course)
anyway.. yeah challenge is good, we'll jsut have to knuckle our little cute gorge heads down and think of some nifty counter-tactics.
However the second most reasonable method in my opinion, to have a combination of the methods. Increasing to the phasegate value to 30 rp, and making it researchable by the observatory at a value of 20 or 25, and increasing the build time by 25%. ;0
I have seen the following scenario many many times: A good aliens team launches a co-ordinated skulk attack on marines attempting to build an outpost in one of the hives at the beginning of the game. The marines nearly always get their phase gate up, it is cheap and builds pretty quickly. Even if the aliens win the initial battle, a couple of wounded skulks are seldom able to take out the phase gate before all the marines spawn and gate back in. The dead aliens take forever to respawn, so the marines end up with a numerical advantage and re-secure their outpost.
The marine players don't have to be particularly skilled, they just have to obey orders well enough to jump in the phase gate as soon as they spawn after one of these battles.
problem is by the time you report them building a phasegate at hive.. its already up and running... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ah yes... they usually jump back in AFTER taking the time to fill up their LMG AND their pistol. Sometimes the marines forget how and where and why they just died or decide to take the scenic route back to the battle (ie, not via the ailing phases). The phase gate rush is risky business for the marine team...
-d$
So I guess the issue here is not balance (as a good plan of protecting a second hive is better than rushing IMHO), but simply coordination. At least the marines have a commander.
Sucks to have to join a clan to play NS with competent aliens...
(while I admit that there's seasoned vets, most public players are pretty fresh...)
For now it's:
I OWNERS J00!!! NOOOO!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basically, marines just need to stick together and look around. Skulks need more coordination, and execute well-timed flanking tactics. (later in the game, marines vs. fades, the situation is reversed until they get HA)
Even then, some of the attackers will die, and respawn is slower for the aliens than for marines. With two marine spawns, and assuming 2 skulks die for 4 marines (being optimistic here) the marines will be back by the time the skulks get back too.
The only way to stop these phase gates tactic is to get rid of the expansions before they're fortified at both hives. Or attack their main base is their defence there is sloppy and the commander didn't bother to set a backup CC at a hive.
At least two hives must be owned by the aliens, as a turret farm in a hive is almost invulnerable to level-1 aliens, with some minor welder support.
make it so aliens must +use it.... i hate going thourgh it when trying to attack, also losing the particles would help me play better with one of them around <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
also, as a general rule of thumb, if the marines have rushed a hive, its usualy the case they have 3 turrets at base.
the words "ripe for the picking" come to mind.
Almost all of the games I've played in only have one gorge - who should be getting ungodly amounts of resources. But by the time he even starts to think of saving up for a hive, there are usually 5 marines trying to storm into the hive he is trying to build in... or occasionally, *gasp* they just build a siege base outside the hive. If you're on a map where you can hear them building out there, then you've got a chance to try and stop them. But if its out of audiable range... well, you've got no clue unless someone stumbles over them or the sieges start firing. But invariably, the marines go with the -> hive phase, turret farm -> 2nd hive phase, turret farm tactic. It seems to be the only thing that works. (And personally, I think marine commanders are yearning to do everything themselves, and just have their marines act like peons who build all the cool things that blow up the aliens. And they miss the old uber-turret farms. ^_^)
Shouldn't we have more options than this in a game? I'd like to actually see HMG/HA marines, or Onos. Or SOMETHING besides endless numbers of phase gates and turrets...
NS is lacking creativity. Almost every game I've played:
Start:
Marines: build observatory, armory, turrets, phase.
Aliens: gorge caps res, one gorge saves for hive
Middle:
Marines: builds phase at hive, TFarms it, moves to second hive
Aliens: almost enough res for second hive OR takes 2nd hive.
NOW,
Marines: screw up and fail to get 2nd hive OR put down phase, seige, etc. and take 2nd hive
Aliens: screw up and fail to defend 2nd hive OR coordinated skulks wipe out aggregating marines.
Late:
Marines: jetpack marines knife skulks for fun while last hive being seiged
OR
Aliens: skulks parasite kill HA's for fun while CC being bitten by 2 Onos, 3 fades, 1 lerk, and healing sprayed by a gorge.
Maybe NS is supposed to play out like this, but after a while it feels like... ennui. We need more strategies...
McMarine's fast food: 90 billion skulk burgers served up and going!
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
The thing about rushes is you just have to hope the enemy team is predictable. If they phase rush, you go round them, detoruing to their base, or alternatively sneak up on them while their building for a light snack. Problem is trying to find them, sometimes. Comm's are getting more intelligent, and won't always choose the excact middle of a hive for their bases.
If a team isn't predictable, you'll probbably lose if you choose the wrong tactic to counter a strategem that the enemy commander isn't actually using (if that makes any sense whatsoever). It's like a massive game of scissors stones and paper.
Oddly, marine rushes are actually getting easier to counter because despite more tactical ground many commanders still do the most obvious thing you can imagine... although rushes still get annoying sometimes.