matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Elric+Dec 17 2002, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Elric @ Dec 17 2002, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yea, I call it spam because there is no indication of WHICH bloody sensory tower is calling out the warning. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They show up in hive sight if they're in the same range as the warning. I thought it was longer for the warning but with some additional testing, it turns out it's the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, I tested it and yes, it does see through walls and the warning comes out at the same time. Another error in the manual.
Not much of a range though - about the same range as the range the commander can place infantry portals from. Or put another way - placing in smack in the middle of the eclipse marine start, it would barely cover the room.
Or in a third way: placing it under the hive and the marines will kill the hive without needing to get into the range of the sensor.
<!--QuoteBegin--Elric+Dec 17 2002, 08:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Elric @ Dec 17 2002, 08:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Anyway, Canadian, I understand MT is powerful but I still haven't seen it work as a total negation. In the end, we can theory talk this for quite a while but in the end, it's going to just take play testing to see how it comes out. Give me the IP of the server you play at and I'll see what you're trying to explain. So far, I've done well with stealth attacks against groups of marines. I can't find it in the first post in the thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm... Yeah, sorry. I thought I had it there, but no... <a href='http://www.x-tower.com/taken' target='_blank'>[TAKEN] Clan website</a> Server name: Tower at Charm... IP: 134.215.217.202:27015 <a href='http://www.x-tower.com/taken/modules.php?name=Addon_Sample' target='_blank'>Server Status</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Elric+Dec 17 2002, 02:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Elric @ Dec 17 2002, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Surprise and flank attacks easily wins number advantages in many scenarios even in FPS's. But if they're so invincible in packs as you imply, why aren't they all marine rushing for wins? And if they are, why are we even arguing a part of the game that aliens would never get to because they die in 3 minutes? Carapaced skulk attacks have not been very effective in stopping these marine groups therefore I'm trying to develop a counter that isn't of the take more bullets variety. You can tell me that they'll always be ready for it because they're so skilled...but why would they? Nobody is using the strategy! If you've been going cloak or silence first a game or two and they're expecting you to do the same ambush style next time around, *then* you can hit them with armored skulks in a one angle attack. While they're being paranoid staying spread out to avoid ambush, then is a good time to run full tilt and pick them off one at a time in a mass rush. And since you seem to be keen on the idea that carapace counters motion tracking to a degree, good!! Make them use up the 45 RP at the beginning that they feel will be needed just to not get devoured. Keep them guessing, make them play your game, don't make them play the same game every freaking time so they only need one playbook. No marine at this point feels the need to be cautious of cloaked units or check their backside for silenced units because THERE NEVER ARE ANY!! Every strategy has counters and I believe that either cloak or silence/celerity are exactly the counter needed for the "move as one group and brute force" strategy that is letting them get that first hive so early. It requires timing and planning but honestly, so does any carapace attack unless you think two skulks just rushing the front have a chance against 4 marines.
2. If they're trying cloak when you're close enough to pinpoint where they are through MT, obviously they're a bit foolish at least after they've figured out the first time you have MT. From farther away though given the circuitous routes the maps have, it really is difficult to pinpoint their location other than saying "Eh, I think there's one in Shipping Tunnel...or was that Aux Generator? Not really, you need 2, at most 3 and I really can't think of any map off hand that has more than two chokes headed from the marine start. You can get pretty creative with SC placement since they see through walls so that they're close enough in range to get a spot on marine groups and yet relatively hidden from view if they're (Lot of the SC placement quote cut for length).
3. Your general answer to #7 seems to be that you're soloing which would be yet another problem with carapace, thinking you can solo and when you can't, you blame it on the marines being too unstoppable. Even your example of a flank implies that. The two skulks die then they turn to kill the others? They're supposed to do it at the same time, it's not a flank if one side hits then the other side attacks later =P. However, I never intended a movement strat to be as effective against a hoard of marines, more for small packs of skulks vs medium packs of marines. The idea is that the marines have broken into two or 3 groups which you have to quickly dispatch. Personally I don't see it as a strong opening but as some have claimed good success with it, I am probably missing something.
4. I just can't agree with such a defeatist strategy (if you can call letting them walk on you at the beginning a strategy). I've wrecked builidng hives, I've seen aliens wreck my building hives at the same time, both with organized and generally good players. I've seen marines get smashed just trying to make momentum and I've seen them steamroll everything in their path. I've tasted the rainbow, sailed the seven seas, seen the wonders of Las Vegas, I've...used too many stupid sayings.
5. That seems to pretty much be the premise of your entire argument. You constantly allude to one alien here, another alien here, occassionally you're gracious enough to permit two aliens to work together. Tiny problem with this...aliens can also use teamwork and planning. I would go so far as to say that if this is all you're basing your arguments on as it seems to be, then your argument is quickly irrelevent any time 3-4 aliens start working together...or *gasp* the whole alien team! If we're going to be basing this whole discussion on worst case scenarios, rambo players, and godly aim then by all means, let's not hold back. I'll start talking about disorganized or unattentive marines, skulks that are so good who rarely miss a bite and never get disoriented, and we can end it by gathering around a campfire mourning how NS is full of newbies who can't put 2 and 2 together but by god can sure shoot like they did in Counter-Strike!
Since the rest of your points seem to be filled with the same negativity, why don't I just stop here and let you tell me what skill level we're talking about here so we can just argue from there? We can talk about well of aorganized, godly teams or we can talk about the moderately skill pub games out there, neither matters to me. I'd rather not talk about total newbie teams since that's not realistic of the enviroment out there. What I do demand however, is that we talk about two teams of the SAME skill level. I'm tired rguing from the standpoint that the marines know exactly what their doing and the aliens are lucky to figure out how to get teamwork among even 2 players. It's a loaded argument you are making and since you haven't been budging from it from the start dispite my nudges, I'm just going to have to openly ask that you that you argue this based on teams of equal skill level. Anything else is unrealistic and honestly, a waste of both our times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the skulks attack all at once, they will certainly be sighted as two groups. If it happens once, then the marines will be tipped off to it, and it will not work again. There is no counter right now except the "take more bullets" variety, and until it is put in, I will continue using it until the chambers are more balanced. Hitting them with fast/cloaking skulks will not even work in the first place versus decent marines, so a rush with cara will not be "sneaky." Motion tracking IS a necessity to ALL good marines. It is like the chamber argument, as it is soo much better than anything else. Correct usage of MT more than doubles marine effectiveness one one-hive games, and less so on two-hive fights. Four skulks with carapace rushing around a corner, or out some vent nearby the group of marines have a MUCH higher chance of killing the marines than one or two running in the front as a diversion, while two try to rush the back. Four skulks nearby the marines or two nearby the marines, while the four can last twice as long under fire. No brainer.
2. If skulks hide at out of the way locations all away from where the marines are, odds point to them sitting there doing nothing for minutes, plus they are not doing anything to hinder the marines where the marines are going. The marines are the ones that go out as a group, and the aliens have to engage them outside of the start location somewhere along the route/destination. When the marines move out, scouting skulks tag them, and assemble for a full assault on the group. Yes, sensory can let the aliens see marines coming. Ok, you see marines going to maintenance on eclipse, and most of your team-mates are mostly around the other parts of the map. The marines see the aliens coming back to reinforce with MT, but then they cannot even do anything even then as they are shredded like paper when they try to attack the marines.
3. No, I do not solo. I play on the server, where I know about one half of the players at any given time. Carapaed assaults in a group are just much more effective than other group upgrade assaults. The marines also do not split up for obvious reasons, as they are all going for two objectives max. Hives.
4. It is not defeatist, it is inevitable. You cannot stop good marines from getting to a hive early game. You can delay them from the next hive though, winning the aliens precious time to take the second hive and push the marines back with fades.
5. Carapaced aliens working together ARE a viable opposition to MT marines, but the thing is that they will know where you are no matter what, so why not take the upgrade that makes you live longer rather than ones the are largely negated by MT? Skulks that never miss a bite cannot simply get to the marines in order to bite in the first place without carapace. I am talking about evenly skilled encounters, and the "ideal situation" of balanced teams. This does happen, but not nearly as much as it would if everyone was good. The problem with SC and MCs first is that they are only good versus bad enemy teams. I talk about the server I play on, which at the times I play on mostly is filled with above-average to good players, and I do not have to worry about newbies and morons on such a large scale as most other pubs. I never say that the aliens are less organized than the marines, but the upgrade choice of sensory/movement just does not help them enough even in large groups versus equal, or even smaller groups of marines.
Must have been some really bad players when I was on, I stayed regen/silence skulk the whole game and faired very nicely. Won the next game with s>d>m. Don't look at me, I just suggested it since they were only in sat/spawn with only those resources, the gorge did it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Was great when 5 minutes later they were complaining they didn't have enough resources, mwhahaha. Tried 3 attacks on waste that were tipped off at least a minute in advance too <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Not real substantial though, didn't seem to be the major crowd. I'm just amazed I got the gorge to do it. Someone else asked if you cloak while gestating and since the answer is yes, he was saying something along the lines of "Omg, why isn't cloak always first?" Swear to god, didn't put him up to it or anything!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yea, I tested it and yes, it does see through walls and the warning comes out at the same time. Another error in the manual.
Not much of a range though - about the same range as the range the commander can place infantry portals from. Or put another way - placing in smack in the middle of the eclipse marine start, it would barely cover the room.
Or in a third way: placing it under the hive and the marines will kill the hive without needing to get into the range of the sensor. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, the range isn't awesome but it really doesn't have to be. Again, the trick to use the sensor tower ability to its fullest is to build them away from your base. The gorge who went sense first wasn't very good with them so when he and the other gorge died, I took over (helped that I had a constant 1000 ping at the time, go go family members!) as gorge. First thing I did was waddle to Waste on Tanith because it was still empty. On the way, I dropped a sensor at the side near Reactor behind a corner at the elevator. Not as hidden as I liked but it worked since I forgot to put one behind the ramp near the ladder to Reactor and I was too lazy to waddle back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Got the RT's, went past the hive, all the way to acidic processing and plopped another sensor down (getting us lvl 3 finally), then went back with enough resources to get the hive. They went by the to waste the first time, got spotted, and though it took some nudging to get my allies to help, they died <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. They killed the sensor though so I finally moved it up to where it should have been in the first place. By the time I was done, I set one in cargo, one in Chemical, a couple of the hives, and Reactor. By that point, they went nowhere without me knowing it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. Got defense chambers for carapace and the fades pretty much bashed in what defenses they had at Satellite and we ended the game 10 minutes later after I tried doinking around again with cloak/silence/regen skulk. Did ok until my ping shot up again but ended it with a cloak/redem/adren gorge for healing support. At least I know they're working properly on servers now.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Logo+Dec 16 2002, 03:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Logo @ Dec 16 2002, 03:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yea. But there are better answers than crippling yourself with sensory. Namely, drop a single OC covering the areas the jetbos might be building in. You might have to skulk there, evolve and build, but it is STILL far cheaper than using sensory.
In addition, the OC's won't spam you with "Enemy Approaching" signals all the time, and they may even take out or damage a Jetbo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spam? You call knowing the enemy is approaching spam?
The Jetbo in that case could always just whiz past the OC to an built in area and you would never know he went by.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, I call it spam because there is no indication of WHICH bloody sensory tower is calling out the warning.
And if you read what I write, I said that you put down the OC's COVERING the areas where the marines may want to build. He can whiz past them all he likes, he won't find a free nook to build in anyhow. Depending on the map, this is more or less hard to setup. On eclipse, it's easy. It's pretty hard on the bast refinery map, but then bast isn't winnable against good marines anyhow.
I think using a sensory chamber becomes REALLY detrimental if you use it for first/second hive when you have to take back the third hive.
Early on, sure, maybe hiding yourself and having the ability to know where the marines are attacking is good- but its crippling your team later on in the game. At the point where you have two hives, the Marines are sure to have at least HA and HMG/GL how does SC help out with protecting you from that when you've either 1. destroyed your defensive abilities against heavy weapons or 2. destroyed your ability to run away/faster adrenaline rush? I mean at the point in time when you have two hives and the marines have one, most OC's and DC's will be saying "hey we're being shot at" by then so whats the use of knowing where the marines are going? YOU KNOW WHERE THEY WILL BE GOING as soon as they do anything.
I'm sorry, but the benefits of having a SC are not great enough for me to throw away my team's ability to defend itself/heal itself and teleport/get adrenaline/run faster.
I'm with Canadianmonk3y here. In my opinion, the best upgrade for a skulk would be silence but once they have MT you can kiss the element of surprise goodbye. Another great thing about defense chambers is they make hardened positions possible. While offensive chambers are nothing but speed bumps to upgraded marines, in the early game they can be invincible walls that absorb bullets if the DCs are placed correctly.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They show up in hive sight if they're in the same range as the warning. I thought it was longer for the warning but with some additional testing, it turns out it's the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, I tested it and yes, it does see through walls and the warning comes out at the same time. Another error in the manual.
Not much of a range though - about the same range as the range the commander can place infantry portals from. Or put another way - placing in smack in the middle of the eclipse marine start, it would barely cover the room.
Or in a third way: placing it under the hive and the marines will kill the hive without needing to get into the range of the sensor.
Basically, not worth it.
Erm... Yeah, sorry. I thought I had it there, but no...
<a href='http://www.x-tower.com/taken' target='_blank'>[TAKEN] Clan website</a>
Server name: Tower at Charm...
IP: 134.215.217.202:27015
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I mostly play fri-sun.
Surprise and flank attacks easily wins number advantages in many scenarios even in FPS's. But if they're so invincible in packs as you imply, why aren't they all marine rushing for wins? And if they are, why are we even arguing a part of the game that aliens would never get to because they die in 3 minutes? Carapaced skulk attacks have not been very effective in stopping these marine groups therefore I'm trying to develop a counter that isn't of the take more bullets variety. You can tell me that they'll always be ready for it because they're so skilled...but why would they? Nobody is using the strategy! If you've been going cloak or silence first a game or two and they're expecting you to do the same ambush style next time around, *then* you can hit them with armored skulks in a one angle attack. While they're being paranoid staying spread out to avoid ambush, then is a good time to run full tilt and pick them off one at a time in a mass rush. And since you seem to be keen on the idea that carapace counters motion tracking to a degree, good!! Make them use up the 45 RP at the beginning that they feel will be needed just to not get devoured. Keep them guessing, make them play your game, don't make them play the same game every freaking time so they only need one playbook. No marine at this point feels the need to be cautious of cloaked units or check their backside for silenced units because THERE NEVER ARE ANY!! Every strategy has counters and I believe that either cloak or silence/celerity are exactly the counter needed for the "move as one group and brute force" strategy that is letting them get that first hive so early. It requires timing and planning but honestly, so does any carapace attack unless you think two skulks just rushing the front have a chance against 4 marines.
2.
If they're trying cloak when you're close enough to pinpoint where they are through MT, obviously they're a bit foolish at least after they've figured out the first time you have MT. From farther away though given the circuitous routes the maps have, it really is difficult to pinpoint their location other than saying "Eh, I think there's one in Shipping Tunnel...or was that Aux Generator?
Not really, you need 2, at most 3 and I really can't think of any map off hand that has more than two chokes headed from the marine start. You can get pretty creative with SC placement since they see through walls so that they're close enough in range to get a spot on marine groups and yet relatively hidden from view if they're
(Lot of the SC placement quote cut for length).
3.
Your general answer to #7 seems to be that you're soloing which would be yet another problem with carapace, thinking you can solo and when you can't, you blame it on the marines being too unstoppable. Even your example of a flank implies that. The two skulks die then they turn to kill the others? They're supposed to do it at the same time, it's not a flank if one side hits then the other side attacks later =P. However, I never intended a movement strat to be as effective against a hoard of marines, more for small packs of skulks vs medium packs of marines. The idea is that the marines have broken into two or 3 groups which you have to quickly dispatch. Personally I don't see it as a strong opening but as some have claimed good success with it, I am probably missing something.
4.
I just can't agree with such a defeatist strategy (if you can call letting them walk on you at the beginning a strategy). I've wrecked builidng hives, I've seen aliens wreck my building hives at the same time, both with organized and generally good players. I've seen marines get smashed just trying to make momentum and I've seen them steamroll everything in their path. I've tasted the rainbow, sailed the seven seas, seen the wonders of Las Vegas, I've...used too many stupid sayings.
5.
That seems to pretty much be the premise of your entire argument. You constantly allude to one alien here, another alien here, occassionally you're gracious enough to permit two aliens to work together. Tiny problem with this...aliens can also use teamwork and planning. I would go so far as to say that if this is all you're basing your arguments on as it seems to be, then your argument is quickly irrelevent any time 3-4 aliens start working together...or *gasp* the whole alien team! If we're going to be basing this whole discussion on worst case scenarios, rambo players, and godly aim then by all means, let's not hold back. I'll start talking about disorganized or unattentive marines, skulks that are so good who rarely miss a bite and never get disoriented, and we can end it by gathering around a campfire mourning how NS is full of newbies who can't put 2 and 2 together but by god can sure shoot like they did in Counter-Strike!
Since the rest of your points seem to be filled with the same negativity, why don't I just stop here and let you tell me what skill level we're talking about here so we can just argue from there? We can talk about well of aorganized, godly teams or we can talk about the moderately skill pub games out there, neither matters to me. I'd rather not talk about total newbie teams since that's not realistic of the enviroment out there. What I do demand however, is that we talk about two teams of the SAME skill level. I'm tired rguing from the standpoint that the marines know exactly what their doing and the aliens are lucky to figure out how to get teamwork among even 2 players. It's a loaded argument you are making and since you haven't been budging from it from the start dispite my nudges, I'm just going to have to openly ask that you that you argue this based on teams of equal skill level. Anything else is unrealistic and honestly, a waste of both our times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the skulks attack all at once, they will certainly be sighted as two groups. If it happens once, then the marines will be tipped off to it, and it will not work again. There is no counter right now except the "take more bullets" variety, and until it is put in, I will continue using it until the chambers are more balanced. Hitting them with fast/cloaking skulks will not even work in the first place versus decent marines, so a rush with cara will not be "sneaky." Motion tracking IS a necessity to ALL good marines. It is like the chamber argument, as it is soo much better than anything else. Correct usage of MT more than doubles marine effectiveness one one-hive games, and less so on two-hive fights. Four skulks with carapace rushing around a corner, or out some vent nearby the group of marines have a MUCH higher chance of killing the marines than one or two running in the front as a diversion, while two try to rush the back. Four skulks nearby the marines or two nearby the marines, while the four can last twice as long under fire. No brainer.
2.
If skulks hide at out of the way locations all away from where the marines are, odds point to them sitting there doing nothing for minutes, plus they are not doing anything to hinder the marines where the marines are going. The marines are the ones that go out as a group, and the aliens have to engage them outside of the start location somewhere along the route/destination. When the marines move out, scouting skulks tag them, and assemble for a full assault on the group.
Yes, sensory can let the aliens see marines coming. Ok, you see marines going to maintenance on eclipse, and most of your team-mates are mostly around the other parts of the map. The marines see the aliens coming back to reinforce with MT, but then they cannot even do anything even then as they are shredded like paper when they try to attack the marines.
3.
No, I do not solo. I play on the server, where I know about one half of the players at any given time. Carapaed assaults in a group are just much more effective than other group upgrade assaults. The marines also do not split up for obvious reasons, as they are all going for two objectives max. Hives.
4.
It is not defeatist, it is inevitable. You cannot stop good marines from getting to a hive early game. You can delay them from the next hive though, winning the aliens precious time to take the second hive and push the marines back with fades.
5.
Carapaced aliens working together ARE a viable opposition to MT marines, but the thing is that they will know where you are no matter what, so why not take the upgrade that makes you live longer rather than ones the are largely negated by MT? Skulks that never miss a bite cannot simply get to the marines in order to bite in the first place without carapace. I am talking about evenly skilled encounters, and the "ideal situation" of balanced teams. This does happen, but not nearly as much as it would if everyone was good. The problem with SC and MCs first is that they are only good versus bad enemy teams. I talk about the server I play on, which at the times I play on mostly is filled with above-average to good players, and I do not have to worry about newbies and morons on such a large scale as most other pubs. I never say that the aliens are less organized than the marines, but the upgrade choice of sensory/movement just does not help them enough even in large groups versus equal, or even smaller groups of marines.
Not real substantial though, didn't seem to be the major crowd. I'm just amazed I got the gorge to do it. Someone else asked if you cloak while gestating and since the answer is yes, he was saying something along the lines of "Omg, why isn't cloak always first?" Swear to god, didn't put him up to it or anything!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yea, I tested it and yes, it does see through walls and the warning comes out at the same time. Another error in the manual.
Not much of a range though - about the same range as the range the commander can place infantry portals from. Or put another way - placing in smack in the middle of the eclipse marine start, it would barely cover the room.
Or in a third way: placing it under the hive and the marines will kill the hive without needing to get into the range of the sensor.
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Agreed, the range isn't awesome but it really doesn't have to be. Again, the trick to use the sensor tower ability to its fullest is to build them away from your base. The gorge who went sense first wasn't very good with them so when he and the other gorge died, I took over (helped that I had a constant 1000 ping at the time, go go family members!) as gorge. First thing I did was waddle to Waste on Tanith because it was still empty. On the way, I dropped a sensor at the side near Reactor behind a corner at the elevator. Not as hidden as I liked but it worked since I forgot to put one behind the ramp near the ladder to Reactor and I was too lazy to waddle back <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. Got the RT's, went past the hive, all the way to acidic processing and plopped another sensor down (getting us lvl 3 finally), then went back with enough resources to get the hive. They went by the to waste the first time, got spotted, and though it took some nudging to get my allies to help, they died <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. They killed the sensor though so I finally moved it up to where it should have been in the first place. By the time I was done, I set one in cargo, one in Chemical, a couple of the hives, and Reactor. By that point, they went nowhere without me knowing it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. Got defense chambers for carapace and the fades pretty much bashed in what defenses they had at Satellite and we ended the game 10 minutes later after I tried doinking around again with cloak/silence/regen skulk. Did ok until my ping shot up again but ended it with a cloak/redem/adren gorge for healing support. At least I know they're working properly on servers now.
In addition, the OC's won't spam you with "Enemy Approaching" signals all the time, and they may even take out or damage a Jetbo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spam? You call knowing the enemy is approaching spam?
The Jetbo in that case could always just whiz past the OC to an built in area and you would never know he went by.
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Yea, I call it spam because there is no indication of WHICH bloody sensory tower is calling out the warning.
And if you read what I write, I said that you put down the OC's COVERING the areas where the marines may want to build. He can whiz past them all he likes, he won't find a free nook to build in anyhow. Depending on the map, this is more or less hard to setup. On eclipse, it's easy. It's pretty hard on the bast refinery map, but then bast isn't winnable against good marines anyhow.
Early on, sure, maybe hiding yourself and having the ability to know where the marines are attacking is good- but its crippling your team later on in the game. At the point where you have two hives, the Marines are sure to have at least HA and HMG/GL how does SC help out with protecting you from that when you've either 1. destroyed your defensive abilities against heavy weapons or 2. destroyed your ability to run away/faster adrenaline rush? I mean at the point in time when you have two hives and the marines have one, most OC's and DC's will be saying "hey we're being shot at" by then so whats the use of knowing where the marines are going? YOU KNOW WHERE THEY WILL BE GOING as soon as they do anything.
I'm sorry, but the benefits of having a SC are not great enough for me to throw away my team's ability to defend itself/heal itself and teleport/get adrenaline/run faster.