Crazy about hive score... why?

MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 612 Advanced user
Why are some people so crazy obsessed with their hive score?

Just came from a server where we started a 3v3 seeding game... Suddenly one guy starts flipping out because his team had an afk for 10 seconds (literally the person he was trying to kick typed he was there in time to prevent the vote from passing.. then they got mad at the "toxic community" and left) then as more people are joining the guy suddenly starts raging again because it ended up 5v7, and he was saying that only happened because people were stacking due to hive score.

You can't even join a team if they are up a player! Like the thing he was complaining about isn't even possible. (at least not on that server)

He F4'd and raged in the ready room that entire game about how it was unfair, how people stack for hive score, and on and on. (and his team almost won - if only he hadn't raged...)

Then in the next game the other team ends up being down 2 players for over 10 minutes... He didn't make a peep. Was all too happy to play that game out silently.


I just don't get it. Why do people like this care about the score SO MUCH? I mean freaking out over a 10 second afk in a 3v3 seeding game?? That's taking it pretty far. Borderline insanity.


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Comments

  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 379 Advanced user
    edited January 22
    This really didn't need a thread to throw around your negative emotions and feelings. I think you're the one freaking out about how other people react to things which is somewhat of the exact same thing they're doing in response to there hive scores...

    I certainly don't care for my hive score, never have. Most regulars now know eachother and eachothers abilities, it's just the rookies or people who never really knew how the hive-skill worked to begin with who brag about hive skill.
    Post edited by Archie on
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    FrozenMoFo1SantaClawsYojimbo.trixX.2cough
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 612 Advanced user
    edited January 22
    Archie wrote: »
    This really didn't need a thread to throw around your negative emotions and feelings.

    Totally not what this thread is for. I genuinely wonder why some people care so much for hive score, and why it makes them treat every game like it's an nsl match or something...

    I expected it to turn into a discussion about why some people get so obsessed and if there's any way to mitigate that without hiding the score altogether.

    Especially since there was a new player in the game that left with a bad impression of this community. I could've just come here complaining about another toxic player, but instead I tried to be positive and create a thread where we can discuss it maturely.. and with any luck find a solution.

    Just because you hate me is no reason for you to pointlessly attack me and attempt to make this thread negative.


  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 1,610 Advanced user
    They are either in an ELO contest with their buddies or they just haven't realized yet that higher ELO means, it is more likely to get shuffled with unrelyable baddies.


    IeptBarakatZavaroHandschuh
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,185 Advanced user
    What's weird about the first story is that games that start as 3v3 don't count.
    NousWanderer2cough
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,047 Advanced user
    edited January 22
    pSyk0mAn wrote: »
    They are either in an ELO contest with their buddies or they just haven't realized yet that higher ELO means, it is more likely to get shuffled with unrelyable baddies.
    That's so true xD The higher ELO you have, the worse games you get FeelsBadMan - and on top of that you never get to play marines again. :'(

    Don't strive for high elo guys, it's not worth it ;)
    IeptBarakat
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 379 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Just because you hate me is no reason for you to pointlessly attack me and attempt to make this thread negative.
    Archie wrote: »
    it's just the rookies or people who never really knew how the hive-skill worked to begin with who brag about hive skill.

    you obviously don't understand either since you can't explain it to them to diffuse the situation.


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  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 612 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    What's weird about the first story is that games that start as 3v3 don't count.

    I wasn't even sure of this myself... I tried telling the guy "dude chill, it's a seeding game it doesn't count" but it all fell on deaf ears.

    Maybe some text during games under 6v6 (obviously small and out of the way!!!!) to clearly inform players that games starting under 6v6 have hive score disabled for seeding.
    That would've at least told him hive was disabled, which probably would've prevented him from raging at the new player?? I dunno just tossing ideas out there.

    Bonus if there's an added little message along the lines of

    "Please keep things fun and fair to discourage quitting and help fill the server!
    -Try to avoid attacking their main base until 6v6
    -Try to avoid Fade/Onos and JP/Exo until 6v6
    Above all have fun!"

    After all those are the basic seeding rules most people in this community seem to agree on. (at least from what I've witnessed)
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    and on top of that you never get to play marines again. :'(

    Wait what? does having high elo make you get shuffled to Alien more often or something?

    If so that would explain a helluva lot. lol

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    edited January 22
    Here is a relevant thread https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/147388/hide-hive-skill-now


    https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140604/remove-hide-elo/p1 shows this comment and more:
    Webtrance wrote: »
    Is ELO critical to the game? Maybe it's been addressed before, but is it possible for the game to exist without ELO or recorded hive stats? I understand a need for a ranking system, but perhaps this can be based upon score rather than win and losses.

    All I know is that with servers that don't record ELO, I feel so much more relaxed joining mid game, knowing the other team is "stacked", and not giving two cares about it. It's actually enjoyable for me to play casually and not worry about loosing 20-40 pts ELO because my team has room for improvement. This all started when servers began displaying ELO next to a players name. You could quickly see "who's who", not only by name, but by Hive skill, and the fact that you're probably going to get stomped. Once servers started displaying Hive skill on the score card, I began "fixating" on it. I know for a fact others get bent axles when loosing ELO. I see folks quit gathers when a bug occurs when a team is about to win and the server gets reset due to a bug or other bogus reason. They're like, "HEY! Nice reset...where's my ELO for the win."

    Anyhoo, I just assume ELO be a hidden stat for the purpose of randomizing games.


    A relevant comment from this thread https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2317540#Comment_2317540:
    rkfg wrote: »
    Hmm, I can only say for myself regarding the Hive skill, but... after it got hidden I feel relieved. No longer I play for increasing that stupid number and keeping it above 2000, I play for fun. I don't leave the team early if we're losing (because that would hurt my rating less according to the algorithm), I play to the end. I also won't jump to the opposite team if I can and my own team is losing (this would count as a win, though with a little to no skill increase but won't hurt win/lose ratio). Now I'm playing just like old times when there was no Hive. Isn't that good?

    I know, for many people the skill rating is valuable. They could brag about it or make a forum signature out of it. That's totally fine in my book. However, it introduces a meta-game when you no longer play the game itself but more and more play NS2 only to win that rating meta-game and gain some weight (or rage when it goes down). And that's something to worry about. Public opinion about your skill matters, others start to mention you while balancing the game, become afraid of you in encounters and so on. But the game becomes less fun and starts to feel more like job. Except you get an increase of a number in the hive's database instead of increasing the number in your bank's database which is a bit more valuable I guess...


    and.... my thoughts on the matter.
    I do agree it should be hidden, but I also think server operators have the right to show it if they want to.

    I would recommend that you ask your favorite server operator to hide hive skill values on their server, but there will be many more players asking them to turn it back on. Instead, you should try supporting a server that does not show hive skill. That is really the only option I see.

    UWE does have real player progression systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/ov771Jrf/16-player-level-progression
    https://trello.com/c/Y03Driqa/22-progression-rewards

    ... and some additional player stats systems coming...
    https://trello.com/c/N0djMvpp/20-player-stats-system
    https://trello.com/c/AbN8RzW4/24-steam-stats

    ... as seen on the NS2 roadmap.
    https://trello.com/b/njrpasjl/ns2-roadmap

    If you are interested in what UWE is working on right now, not what they will be working on, or want more details than the roadmap might give, check out their development tracker trello.
    https://trello.com/b/uFv64kH6/ns2-development-team
    Nordic wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    It kind of is an individual progression system though, and a pretty good one. The score reflects your likelihood of winning - I can't come up with a better goal for the game. If everyone tries to be better at winning - then everyone has better games imo.
    Players use hive skill values can work as a pseudo progression system but it was never designed as such. Your logic oversimplifies and ignores the problems a visible hive skill produces.

    To name a few:
    • Showing hive skill highlights it's use as an individual skill metric, and distracts from its use as a team balancing system. Hive skill values are a representation of a players likelihood of winning, which reflects skill, but does not define it. A visible hive skill often causes players to put more value into skill values than they should.
    • Showing hive skill actually creates distrust in the system. Faults in the system are always more noticeable and memorable. Hive skill values may reflect skill value, but they lack context, allowing players to perceive faults where there might be none. Players will see a player with excellent mechanical skill getting many kills, but still has a low hive skill. It is not easy to understand that although this player has high mechanical skill, he loses often. This is assuming the hive skill is even significant, and it may not be. Hive skill values are now significant after 90 games on average.
    • Hive skill values used as a skill progression system creates a metagame where players only play to increase the number. For these players it highlights the loss more, making it feel worse. Since hive skill values is built on team performance, it becomes easier to blame the team for the loss. A visible hive skill can easily increase toxic behavior. Here is an example of this metagame, and another.

    I linked UWE's plans for a real progression system above, but I forgot one. UWE plans to add a competitive ranking.
    UWE wrote:
    Hive skill should not be shown to players, as it ideally would find a range that represents a players current skill and then stay within it. It's not meant to be gamed, and if people try to manipulate their hive skill it makes it harder to use the info for team balancing.

    People like having a number that they can track as it goes up and down. We should add a visible competitive ranking which you would be able to raise slowly. It would be able to be used as a status symbol rather than a balancing factor.[/megenta]


    Hive skill values can be used as a competitive ranking or as a progression system. Just because it can doesn't mean it is good at it. Hive's purpose and real strength is in its ability to balance teams. UWE has plans to introduce a real competitive ranking and a real progression system. Hive is separate from those plans.

    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Wait what? does having high elo make you get shuffled to Alien more often or something?
    Nope. Your hive skill has no direct meaning on what team you will be put on. It does try to make teams even though and high skill players tend to prefer marines. If there are already high skill players on marines, it will try to move as few people as possible to the other team. The easiest way to do that is to take the highest skilled player. Santa is quite skilled.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 252 Advanced user
    edited January 22
    This is in my opinion the reason why ns2+ should be improved with more stats like hiveskill during the round... (or welding time even though it's offtopic :D)

    People often complain about "stack since the beginning" when the stack was the other way around 2 minutes ago, or it happened just after the team lost the mapcontrol/most crucial fight and ppl left because they don't wait for others to concede and leave..
    Stark
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,185 Advanced user
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    I do feel like displaying it is helpful in some cases. It's useful to be able to say "these teams feel imbalanced to me, are they?" and be able to check. And then be able to ask certain players to switch to even things out if necessary.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 3,441 mod
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,362 Advanced user
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.

    That way everyone will be obsessing over their "league" or "ranking" or whatever instead of their number. I don't think it would fundamentally change anything.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    Check out my new Balance Mod
    NordicZdrytchX
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    edited January 23
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.
    I once had the same idea. I sorted out skill brackets into different levels. I have since thought this would further increase the false perception that hive is a progression system.

    For example, these are the skill bracket. Open the image separately to zoom in enough to read it.
    unknown.png

    The real solution is to hide the hive skill values and implement a real progression system. This won't happen though because people would throw a fit if they couldn't see their hive skills anymore, and UWE is years away from beginning to work on their progression system
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    edited January 23
    Edit: Really? My phone double posted again. :frowning:
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    Keats
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,362 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.
    I once had the same idea. I sorted out skill brackets into different levels. I have since thought this would further increase the false perception that hive is a progression system.

    For example, these are the skill bracket.
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/194599247314812928/264537192448262156/unknown.png

    I posted a link because I am on mobile. I will fix it later.

    It doesn't help that there's a nebulous "Level" system that literally doesn't do anything except increase numbers.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,185 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.

    That way everyone will be obsessing over their "league" or "ranking" or whatever instead of their number. I don't think it would fundamentally change anything.

    Possibly, but I think if people didn't see it changing every game maybe they wouldn't obsess about the outcome of every game.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,362 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.

    That way everyone will be obsessing over their "league" or "ranking" or whatever instead of their number. I don't think it would fundamentally change anything.

    Possibly, but I think if people didn't see it changing every game maybe they wouldn't obsess about the outcome of every game.

    On the other hand, plenty of people will stop playing if their games happen in a vacuum.

    Basically, you can't win.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    Check out my new Balance Mod
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 649 Advanced user
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue Posts: 1,332 Advanced user
    edited January 23
    Hide the hiveskill but force autoshuffle @ every round.

    Its just amazing that we have to say "press m and vote shuffle" before EVERY roundstart like an mantra for 5 years now.
    This would also fix these boring endless shuffle votes each rounds, cause some people dont wanna play one side.
    Or autoshuffle if the skill difference is over 200.

    Only hiding the hive score wont solve anything and will end in one sided rofl-stomps.
    image
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 1,023 Advanced user
    "I just don't get it. Why do people like this care about the score SO MUCH? I mean freaking out over a 10 second afk in a 3v3 seeding game?? That's taking it pretty far. Borderline insanity."
    - @MoFo1, 2018

    People come with varying degrees of competitive edge, I think it's simple as that. Some MUST WIN, even when there is absolutely nothing of value at stake - going to embarrassing lengths to do so. These people won't be upset over having an advantage, as they tie their ego and reputation to whether they win or lose. Egos, even behind the veil of anonymity, are sensitive. Thus, their only course of action to preserve their ego is to win at all costs. You can't change the thought processes and values that reside in these people's heads.

    What you can do is recognize that it's fucking video game and move on. There are far more important things to spend your energy worrying about in this world.
    antou
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    Today I learned that sometimes people think differently than me and that is okay.
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    Mouse
  • AmbivalentAmbiguityAmbivalentAmbiguity Miami, FL Join Date: 2014-02-18 Member: 194129Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 20 Advanced user
    Personally I’d just like it if I could set the average hiveskill to disappear a minute into the round.

    I think that would solve a lot of problems. Individual hive scores aren’t shown for very long, why should the average still be shown?

    Often times when someone joins the server there’s only a playable slot available on a single team. Does this sometimes shift the balance? Of course. Does this sometimes increase or decrease the hive score average between teams? Yes.

    But I would argue that the majority of the time when leavers and joiners create an imbalanced hive score and the higher scored team wins the game was usually already lost for the lower skilled team by the time the higher skilled players joined the opposing team. And again, usually they have no choice. It’s not fair to tell them to leave, sit it out, or wait.

    I can’t be the only one tired of seeing every loss blamed on what the hive scores were at the end of the game. They’re useful to sort the teams. They’re useful for knowing when to reshuffle. Outside of that... well you see my point.

    I’m also equally as frustrated with people blaming hive score when truth be told it’s their own team’s lack of communication and teamwork, especially when they usually don’t speak up at all. But that’s beside the point.
    VetinariStark
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 612 Advanced user
    Personally I’d just like it if I could set the average hiveskill to disappear a minute into the round.

    I think that would solve a lot of problems. Individual hive scores aren’t shown for very long, why should the average still be shown?

    Often times when someone joins the server there’s only a playable slot available on a single team. Does this sometimes shift the balance? Of course. Does this sometimes increase or decrease the hive score average between teams? Yes.

    I can’t be the only one tired of seeing every loss blamed on what the hive scores were at the end of the game. They’re useful to sort the teams. They’re useful for knowing when to reshuffle. Outside of that... well you see my point.

    I'm also tired of people always blaming hive for every loss, but having the average shown can sometimes be useful late game. For instance say Aliens get pushed back to one hive and one res node, and the teams look like this

    Marines - Avg 2700
    Aliens - Avg 1100

    Plenty of reason to justify conceding that game to start a new one. Better to start a new game with even teams than continue with such lopsided teams. After all that would just result in Aliens being kill farmed until Marines finally decide to end it (and then people leave when the game ends and the server dies)

    On the other hand if the teams look like this

    Marines - Avg 2200
    Aliens - Avg 2400

    There's an argument to not concede and try to mount a comeback...



    Wouldn't it be better to do as @Handschuh suggested and show what the hive scores were throughout the game at the end stat screen? It would make for a nice 3rd graph alongside the res and kill graphs. (and I also agree we should have stats tracking welding time, among many other things lol)

    Then hive scores could only be blamed when they were actually a prime factor in the outcome. If we had stats and people started blaming hive you could point to the stats to shut them up. Additionally just being able to see when the hive score changed would likely minimize how often people blame hive. (since they could see for themselves when it would or wouldn't have mattered)



    Vetinari
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    edited January 25
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    If we had stats and people started blaming hive you could point to the stats to shut them up.
    That strategy does not work very well in my experience. Most people will stick to what they feel is right. I am not speaking about these forums, but generally about life. It is true in life and in these forums. Although, these forums have been better than most despite a few stubborn forum goers.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
    BlrgAmbivalentAmbiguitySupaFred
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members Posts: 252 Advanced user
    edited January 25
    The score of “lost rt's per minute“ can say as much why someone lost as how much seconds did “all marines weld per second“.. having a score for each marine would show that to an individual guy, or even the whole team: “You suck because you don't weld (people)“
    It should be possible to make associations.. because I see ppl actually calling that out ( lost rt's) who are new to the game - and that is good..
    but about weldingtime it would be important to distinguish between welding marines and buildings.
    (Like accuracy between onos or without it - since welding every rt to 100% isn't as important than laning)
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 379 Advanced user
    edited January 25
    Handschuh wrote: »
    The score of “lost rt's per minute“ can say as much why someone lost as how much seconds did “all marines weld per second“.. having a score for each marine would show that to an individual guy, or even the whole team: “You suck because you don't weld (people)“
    It should be possible to make associations.. because I see ppl actually calling that out ( lost rt's) who are new to the game - and that is good..
    but about weldingtime it would be important to distinguish between welding marines and buildings.
    (Like accuracy between onos or without it - since welding every rt to 100% isn't as important than laning)

    I posted this back in 2016

    https://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/145653/build-310-is-now-live-on-steam-natural-selection-2/p4
    LOL @ MOFOLOLOL

    sdsdfd
    Archie wrote: »
    So can you explain to me why balance based on varying factors of below isn't implemented?

    K:D, broken down into lifeform play, it's obvious if someone spent 40minutes as a lerk and got 50kills vs someone who went lerk for 40 minutes and got 1 kill who is the more skilled player, the skill transfer isn't that great for alien-marine i know that, but we're not judging everything off one data-set are we now? so why not account for each individual players skill breakdown when implementing it?

    for marines it should include
    time spent building structures, and kills / death
    for aliens it should include
    time spent as lifeform and kills / death for those specific life forms

    the problem is you're trying to balance tons of bad metrics. most of the reasons stacking happens is because good players want to play on the team of there own choosing, nothing to do with a rookie who has 1500hive1 skill who joins a stacked team, they add nothing to the team other then to add to some bullshit filter that you apply when taking your statistics.

    think of it from my point of view, you have a massive inbalance on a server 18 people playing 6 people on the server are really good, but not always does the hive reflect that, sometimes it does but it's not very accurate, so you break down the stats into individual player, for marines as above, time building and k:d, for aliens time spent and k:d (with offset for gorging, heal points and structures built etc etc.) algorithm needs to split the server up into junk and not junk when accounting for that balance, you may have 4 really good players who are consistently good and can ruin the whole game, so you don't stack the guy who builds and has high K;D on marines with the best gorge on the server, you split them onto respective teams, otherwise you're going to get a really good lerk and a really good pistol hero who just shoots to increase his accuracy each game on aliens, which can fuck with balance because he's not a very good lifeform.

    Please tell me why this cannot be done and why i am completely wrong in my approach?

    @moultano

    Someone did respond in that thread but it was not a very good reasoning as to why i should even start to be happy with it "we already record some of these stats" lol...

    I mean % of time welded can be abused very easily in regards to that, rookies spend alot of time welding structures in main base but when they leave the base they never pull them out to weld other players or res towers, you should be getting hive skill points simply for defending resource towers, somehow you need a metric for player moved towards the vicinity of a resource tower being attacked and defended it, sort of like the steam achievement for protecting a resource tower, but in this case it's your hive skill going up by defending.

    btw the code exists for tracking entity/model/player statistics and now that we have 64 bit perhaps we could get an upgrade in the stats department including maybe an upgraded demo system since they tie into the same system :)?
    IPB Image Constellation - a great source of income :> http://www.netplanet.co.nz/ns/
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 152 Advanced user
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nordic quotes a lot of old threads

    I remember when UWE was going to de-emphasize hive skill. (I'm going to hope and assume there's some mention of that in those threads; I'm too lazy to look in there.)
    PM sent.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,759 admin
    We don't emphasize it. It's only mods that show the actual numbers. Ideally, you'd never even see your "skill" rating, just your XP.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,461 Advanced user
    edited January 26
    I don't remember UWE saying anything about de-emphasizing. As far as I know, I am the only one who brings it up often, and de-emphasize is a term I rarely see anyone but me use.

    UWE has plans in their road map for a player progression system, more stat collection, and a competitive ranking. Who knows when or if they will get to those. UWE said they would do a new hive website too, since the old hive website was not compatible with the new database.

    They may be old threads but we repeat the same conversations here year after year.
    Post edited by Nordic on
    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 97 Advanced user
    Vetinari wrote: »
    Mouse wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    I wonder if rounding the displayed skill to the nearest 100 or 200 would keep people calmer about it. You could still use it to balance teams manually as necessary, but you wouldn't see fluctuation game to game so much. It's definitely not designed as a progression system to motivate people, which would probably make different decisions.

    It might be worth representing the public face of the number as some sort of ranking:
    2,200 to 2,399 = Silver, 1 Star
    4,800 to 4,999 = Shadow, 4 Star
    600 to 799 = Recruit, 3 Star
    etc.

    That way everyone will be obsessing over their "league" or "ranking" or whatever instead of their number. I don't think it would fundamentally change anything.

    I'm more keen on getting the server browser ping display "fixed" for higher latency players rather than seeing eveyrthing as red. I guess the equivalent would be entering a rookie server only to see that everyone has 1 bronze star because everyone is under a set hive score value.

    I actually made a mod that did that but because of UI changes and incompatability I'm too lazy to fix it.
    By all means volunteer if you want:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=858827330
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