ns_veil is the best map

555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Fully active user
edited September 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
it's by far the most balanced map, both teams constantly battle over the center of the map, and the three alien hives are easily traversed
Post edited by 555 on
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  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,603 Advanced user
    I wouldn't say it's the only good map, but it's by far the best played map which is ironic because ns2's initial draw towards 5 techpoint maps.
    The_Welsh_WizardStark
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 777 Advanced user
    hmmm looking at the last map releases (kodiak, derelict, caged)... I don't think ns2 rly goes towards 5 techpoints anymore. Even though it is still possible
    return to zero
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, England Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester Posts: 451 Advanced user
    So, basically what you're trying to say is that Veil is the only map you enjoy.

    Because Tram, Biodome, Descent and Jambi are arguably more balanced... Veil is alien favored in the same way that summit is marine favored... but with pub play as it is at the moment, alien players are more often than not clueless, so they struggle more. Simply put, in low skill scenarios, yes, veil is balanced, but its balanced because the aliens can't play very well, not because the map itself is a balanced map.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
    DC_Darkling
  • 555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Fully active user
    I enjoy veil the most, for sure. I like descent and tram too. Eclipse feels a lot different from the NS1 eclipse, which used to be my favorite map. Not quite sure why that is, I think it has to do with maintenance and computer core feeling different
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 606 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    @555 tram would like a word with you
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    Kouji_SanIronHorseNousWandererDC_Darkling
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    555 wrote: »
    it's by far the most balanced map, both teams constantly battle over the center of the map, and the three alien hives are easily traversed

    Perhaps and I'mma let you finish, but Junction and Rockdown were some of the best maps of all time :trollface:


    And TBH, I believe summit still runs circles around all of em for overall layout design

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,243 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    555 wrote: »
    it's by far the most balanced map, both teams constantly battle over the center of the map, and the three alien hives are easily traversed

    Perhaps and I'mma let you finish, but Junction and Rockdown were some of the best maps of all time :trollface:


    And TBH, I believe summit still runs circles around all of em for overall layout design

    Well, the wagon wheel is the easiest way of making an ns2 map balanced. Summit is arguable the "purest" ns2 map there is.

    I like 'em all, except eclipse, and I'm also kind of fed up with veil at this point. It's overplayed.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
  • AbsurdonAbsurdon Germany Join Date: 2015-02-09 Member: 201274Members Posts: 69 Fully active user
    let's put it that way: balance of a map is heavily depending on player counts and playerskill. what might look balanced in lowskill scenarios might be unbalanced as fuck in highskill scenarios. same goes for the player count. some maps are playing kinda well on high player counts while others feel like a massive clusterfuck. same goes the other way arround. some maps are perfectly balanced for low playercounts and therefore play good.
    obviously this only relates to balanced teams. so you comming and saying veil is the only good map or the most balanced map or anything like this is just plain wrong as there is more aspects on what scenarios a map feels balanced or not.
    .trixX.ResistorKasharicDC_Darkling
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    There is one thing to this though using the NS layout system, with fixed hives and one marine start... The areas don't have to be designed as a jack of all trades and compromise on alien/marine friendliness near a main base. So in a way, NS maps had more character if you have specific locations for specific teams. NS2 tends to go the way of "we must have all teams function fairly decently in ALL areas", which makes for a much less dynamic game


    BUT THEN AGAIN!!!

    We could've gone the way of, IF aliens spawn here, we get more alien stuff (obstructions/vents) and for marines better lighting and longer lines of sight. Areas near the MS and Hive could also get gradually more marine and alien friendly and the central neutral areas could be just that.

    NS1.0+ >_> I bet Spark would have a stroke if this was done though

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,243 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    There is one thing to this though using the NS layout system, with fixed hives and one marine start... The areas don't have to be designed as a jack of all trades and compromise on alien/marine friendliness near a main base. So in a way, NS maps had more character if you have specific locations for specific teams. NS2 tends to go the way of "we must have all teams function fairly decently in ALL areas", which makes for a much less dynamic game


    BUT THEN AGAIN!!!

    We could've gone the way of, IF aliens spawn here, we get more alien stuff (obstructions/vents) and for marines better lighting and longer lines of sight. Areas near the MS and Hive could also get gradually more marine and alien friendly and the central neutral areas could be just that.

    NS1.0+ >_> I bet Spark would have a stroke if this was done though

    Maps should have just been procedurally generated. It's all the rage these days.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    Resistor
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    Dynamic Infestation yo

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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,340 Advanced user
    I compiled these statistics awhile ago on maps. Veil is by far the most played map. Going by win rates alone, veil is very balanced.

    For those that don't want to click the link, here is a little bit from there.
    All games map popularity, team win rates, team percentage of kills, and team percentage of Tres mined.
    5i50TZ2.png
    Please do not awesome anymore of my posts. I have 888 awesome's, and I would like to keep it that way. Shame on @Vetinari,
    @cooltic, and @.trixX. for ending it. Thank you @Foxy for fixing it.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • 555555 pennsylvania Join Date: 2016-09-16 Member: 222356Members Posts: 9 Fully active user
    that's actually incredible summit has a perfect 50/50 ratio out of so many matches recorded lol
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,340 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    I doubt it is actually 50/50. I rounded it to the first decimal point.
    Please do not awesome anymore of my posts. I have 888 awesome's, and I would like to keep it that way. Shame on @Vetinari,
    @cooltic, and @.trixX. for ending it. Thank you @Foxy for fixing it.

    When you aim for perfect balance, you discover it's a moving target.
    Perfect balance is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellent gameplay.
    NS2 is a moving, breathing thing. We have to be willing to constantly evolve. Perfect balance is constant transformation.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 154 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    This thread's premise is false. That said, here's a consideration:

    With regard to pub perception (especially among less experienced players), veil is one of the more "honest" maps if you consider the fact that the game is basically over once aliens get the 3rd hive.

    Why? Since veil only has 4 tech points, marines rarely labor under the pretension that they aren't completely borked once aliens get the 3rd. On other maps, the presence of 5 tech points creates the impression that a 2/3 (marine/alien) tech point split positions the marines to reasonably anticipate a comeback. After all, they're only "one tech point down" - right?

    Wrong.

    In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive. This may be a "soft timer" by definition, but it's pretty much a hard timer in practice. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're just that: exceptions.

    This combined with the fact that nano is such a useful hold (and yet is reasonably assailable from system waypointing, west junction, or east junction) probably contributes to the map's popularity.

    Unfortunately, it's also one of the worst maps when it comes to dealing with marine turtle fests simply due to control's geometry. Oh well.
    IronHorseVetinari
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,130 admin
    In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive..
    You mean just around the 10 minute mark, regardless of the number of hives, right?
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
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    VetinariNousWandererKouji_San.trixX.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members Posts: 283 Advanced user
    edited September 2016
    This thread's premise is false. That said, here's a consideration:

    With regard to pub perception (especially among less experienced players), veil is one of the more "honest" maps if you consider the fact that the game is basically over once aliens get the 3rd hive.

    Why? Since veil only has 4 tech points, marines rarely labor under the pretension that they aren't completely borked once aliens get the 3rd. On other maps, the presence of 5 tech points creates the impression that a 2/3 (marine/alien) tech point split positions the marines to reasonably anticipate a comeback. After all, they're only "one tech point down" - right?

    Wrong.

    In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive. This may be a "soft timer" by definition, but it's pretty much a hard timer in practice. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're just that: exceptions.

    This combined with the fact that nano is such a useful hold (and yet is reasonably assailable from system waypointing, west junction, or east junction) probably contributes to the map's popularity.

    Unfortunately, it's also one of the worst maps when it comes to dealing with marine turtle fests simply due to control's geometry. Oh well.

    Out of the best maps in the game, veil being one of them, it's my least favorite. This is because you get those really slow moving games where marines sit on phase gates and onos have trouble being effective. You do though get some crazy good games on veil. 4 tech points does seem to work well in this game. I think Mineral and Veil are 2 of the 4 best maps in the game (jambi and tram being the others) and they both have 4 tech points. Not even sure Jambi needs the 5th tech point in the middle. Tram might be the only map that is great and needs 5 tech points with it's current set up. Perhaps that should be the exception. I would like to see summit's middle of the map re-worked and remove the middle tech point (would also like to see changes to crevice and ventilation). Maybe NS1 had it right - 3 possible hive locations and a starting marine base.
    UncleCrunch
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,415 Advanced user
    Mineral is the best map in the game
    mattji104
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,243 Advanced user
    Guys the best map is obviously eclipse why is there even any discussion about this
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    Guys the best map is obviously eclipse why is there even any discussion about this

    Let's get down to the rock into the junction of the mapping kingdom, while we watch the veil pass over like an eclipse on the summit

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  • TinCanTinCan Join Date: 2006-12-11 Member: 59010Members Posts: 357 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Let's get down to the rock into the junction of the mapping kingdom, while we watch the veil pass over like an eclipse on the summit
    and plan our descent to the bottom of the mineshaft.
    Kouji_San.trixX.
  • jrgnjrgn Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58289Members Posts: 110 Advanced user
    Do you think you are some kind of hera, i know because i've would have tanith, but it all ended up being oldschool nothing!
    Kouji_San.trixX.
  • FoxyFoxy United Kingdom Join Date: 2014-08-19 Member: 198032Members, Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, Forum staff Posts: 410 mod
    You're all a bunch of nancies
    Kouji_Sanjrgn.trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,243 Advanced user
    This is docking ridiculous.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    Kouji_Sanjrgn.trixX.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    My derailing might be the most refined yet :trollface:

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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,243 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    My derailing might be the most refined yet :trollface:

    Yeah. You should be jailed caged.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    Kouji_Sanjrgn.trixX.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Posts: 14,680 Advanced user
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    My derailing might be the most refined yet :trollface:

    Yeah. You should be jailed caged.

    Ayu kiddin' mi?

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