"NotSo" Random Crits™
Kouji_San
Sr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Sr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Alright, so this is a very odd idea but bear with me... Here's the idea, Random Crits... Oh crap here we go, I'm probably going to get hunted down for even suggesting this. It's a bit different than what you think though!
Not so much random, but more a certain chance (all percentage up for grabs), I just upped the percentage for marines cause they use the obs/scan...
-Not sure about what kind of damage a crit should do, 200% seems a bit high or maybe not...
Good
The noob tube effect... Giving newbies a very tiny boost in general to counter superior players to a small extent...
Now, this would add some randomness to the encounters and could in some cases play out in favor of the newbie. Killing that super awesome god player... Well more adapt player, the god players are too elusive kinda... Kinda a gameplay based crutch for new players.
And since it can't be predicted, it can't be abused by the better players...
Bad:
Alien classes and Marine weapons cost res and as such, players are invested into these things through team and personal resources... So kinda the only thing that goes against this, is the fact that people might get ticked off at after crit. But hey at least they aren't... Random Crits...
Oh crap!
Not so much random, but more a certain chance (all percentage up for grabs), I just upped the percentage for marines cause they use the obs/scan...
- 15-25% chance to crit chance for marines (rifle/pistol), on an alien that has been scanned by the commander or an observatory
- 10-20% chance to crit chance for aliens (bite/spit/poison bite/slash/gore) on a parasited marine or marine near a mushroom, that mushroom needs an effect for marines though. Subtle inky shader effect on viewmodel/marine model?
- Maybe based on accuracy, people get a very small extra percentage extra boost to their crit chance per hit (lower for marines due to rate of fire? And if their accuracy goes up (>15/20%), they lose that extra boost to their crit chance - SantaClaws concern
-Not sure about what kind of damage a crit should do, 200% seems a bit high or maybe not...
Good
The noob tube effect... Giving newbies a very tiny boost in general to counter superior players to a small extent...
Now, this would add some randomness to the encounters and could in some cases play out in favor of the newbie. Killing that super awesome god player... Well more adapt player, the god players are too elusive kinda... Kinda a gameplay based crutch for new players.
And since it can't be predicted, it can't be abused by the better players...
Bad:
Alien classes and Marine weapons cost res and as such, players are invested into these things through team and personal resources... So kinda the only thing that goes against this, is the fact that people might get ticked off at after crit. But hey at least they aren't... Random Crits...
Oh crap!
Comments
EDIT: Let me qualify this statement.
the amount of crits we would expect with 20% chance, is; 9*.2 = 1.8 ~ 2.
If 200% extra dmg, that means one lmg bullet at level 0 is 30 dmg.
So that transforms 9 bullets in to somewhere around 5 or so right? 2*30 + 3*10 = 9 --> 2+3 = 5
So the difference there is 4 bullets.
Let's say a rookie usually spends 50 bullets on a skulk. I've definitely seen this a lot even in experienced players, who have to draw out pistol to finish a single skulk. And these are the players we're trying to help I'm assuming.
So the relation between 50, and 50 - 4 = 46. is 8%. Wow, what a buff right? Amazing. /s
Now let's consider an experienced marine, who maybe spends 15 bullets per skulk.
15 - 4 = 11 in relation to 15 is 26.67%. <--- Quite a big leap from 8%.
Now you might rightly point out, that the rookie may finish the skulk off well before the 46th bullet. So let's find out, how many bullets would he need to improve, to get the 26% advantage that the vet has?
1 - x/50 = 0.26 => x = (1 - 0.26)*50 = 37.
This is just not plausible imo.
Well maybe based on accuracy, people get a very small extra percentage extra boost to their crit chance per hit (lower for marines due to rate of fire? And if their accuracy goes up (>15/20%), they lose that extra boost to their crit chance...
Although, based on it being unpredictable. I see it doing more random damage than giving super good players a huge benefit. As they themselves are also at risk of an element of unpredictability/risk based on "parasited/scanned"
I mean I keep hearing and reading in servers about new players two things ironically on both teams. As a marine/alien I die too fast and it feels like I don't do enough damage.
--
Now I know this is a game of skill, but that is also it's biggest downfall in terms of getting players to stay. And I know this is a huge taboo somehow, I'm just thinking outside our own box that has these huge walls for new players to come play in our sandbox
Even if this has a 99% of being smacked down by everyone here, I do think it's worth discussing the options for "newbie handholding noob tubes", to make their game more enjoyable versus vastly superior players.
If matchmaking doesn't work properly, because the game is lacking concurrent players and you eventually end up with veterans vs conscripts... It shows a very big flaw in the game. now of course it's impossible to fix this issue entirely, but the newbies need some kind of tool to make them have fun and that slight chance, that hint of "OMG I KILLED THAT GUY"... That is indeed already in game, but it is very hard to achieve (ahem super Lerks and Fades)
So what keeps me from shooting a bunch on the floor to boost my own crit chance? And why not just give people with poor aim a FLAT dmg boost at this point? <-- I'm obviously NOT suggesting this, but I think if you wanted to go this route, that would be the more direct way of helping people with bad aim.
Moreover, I'm just really worried about introducing more hidden mechanics. How in the world are you going to communicate this sort of mechanic to new, old and returning players?
Allow me to quote something you said @Kouji_San
Scan crits are also very difficult to counter. Commanders can drop it anywhere, at any time (even more effective with a skillful coordinated team). Whereas parasite is already very powerful with its tracking effect; Shade proximity crits are too easy to counter for good Marines (just stay away from cloaked stuffs).
Here are a few alternate ideas I have brainstormed:
-Enzyme (the blood red alien buff) would make the first attack that lands always crit.
-Aura (trait upgrade) increases alien damage on the "first hit" (like above).
-Marines hit by Rupture take increased damage from alien attacks.
-Aliens hit by exploding Mines (or a new MAC area effect ability?) take more damage.
And yes, I want to avoid hidden game mechanics and celebrating bad play at all cost as the game should already be called "Hidden Game Mechanics 2" (also a quote from me hahaha)
Crits are not that hidden in general due to instant feedback options (sounds/visual). I just wanted to steer clear from always having the random crits from Team Fortress 2. However that in itself turned this one into a hidden game mechanic as well, good eye...
That shooting at floor bit is very true and also hilarious at the same time
The main idea behind this was to give new players a bit more power through gameplay (instead of a straight up boost). The points you mentioned @SantaClaws definitely need to be addressed, if this would even be considered as an addition to NS2. At the moment I'm drawing a blank on this, also I've not gotten any hopes this would even be considered. Just an idea and putting salt on the wounds that is this huge anti newbie cannon we're playing...
@twiliteblue, definitely like that way of thinking and the ideas sound awesome. However they also seem to fall into the same trap I've fallen into, but a bit deeper into the hole of hidden game mechanics.
I remember we also has other things like fiery, feeding and frenzy or something which boosted attack damage on damaged marines? Or was it group attacks which did more damage to marines instead of single attacks... And getting some health back after kill (feeding?)
Also that damn hidden game mechanics again... DAMMIT I'M STARTING TO HATE THAT WORD
I was inspired by that thread as well. Hopefully other community members might be able to join the dots and come up with some ideas worth trialing.
Rather than "crits" it would be interesting to see the following:
Aura also gives aliens dmg boost.
New 10 res research at obs allows for increased dmg when marines are shooting targets within range of an obs. Must be researched per obs.
This does a few things with regard to game mechanics and strategy. Shade first finally becomes a first hive possibility in pubs and by making the dmg boost apply to aura makes users chose between cloak and dmg.
The above regardless will cause marines to build obs in different places in the map to counter cloak but now they can be upgraded to also allow marines to deal more dmg.
Likewise there is now a reason to build obs when pushing hives ect. Note that it is rare that an obs is able to have a hive within its range in most maps. Instead this gives marines help holding that room next to the hive at a total cost of 25 res. Aliens also now care about obs in positions away from tech rooms.
Note that the dmg boost to marines would only apply to targets within the obs range not targets outside shot from within. But this does mean targets within shot from outside.
Okay, let me throw out MY extemporaneous idea then :P. I think what we need, are new weapons.
Overwatch beta has been out for a few weeks now. We should be able to draw some inspirations from here - as that game is basically designed for rookies.
I'd draw attention to Zenyatta's weapons.
With that in mind, I'm imagining a gun, with a firerate and bullet size roughly like his, projectile based, where the projectiles sort of have a homing mechanic on the lifeforms. Not too wide a cone, it should only be so forgiving, that it works as a crutch until rookies can aim with their lmg. Obviously I'm imagining that the lmg would have higher potential dps.
And perhaps, in order to not make the gun completely useless to experienced players - thus deterring commanders from ever researching it (see flamethrower) - it would give a sort of debuff on the aliens you hit with it similar to Overwatch's Zenyatta's orb of discord.
Perhaps even a friendly buff to allied marines as well would make it an interesting weapon.
If anything, should take some from Combat - make it an upgrade path for marines and aliens, balance, repeat. win.
I suggested critical hits and you tell me to run away very fast. I thought that was for my own safety, but it turns out it was just so you could steal my idea
As you can clearly see I ninja-ed my way out of here as well... Wait my smoke bomb failed? But yeah, you are indeed correct to the extent of crits
I just welded them to gameplay elements instead of straight up TF2-like crits (they be the minicrits mechanism?)
I have looked at many games over the years and looked into different 'skill balancing' ideas for games I want to make myself. The hardest thing is to make something that benefits only the lowest skill players, without negating the skill difference in the first place.
Despite all the mechanics I have looked at, the only thing that has guaranteed being able to balance for all skill levels is a large enough playerbase and skill matching.
I really love that everyone is trying to make the changes to retain NS2 players, but I just don't think it can happen without a major redesign of the mechanics, in my own personal view, that is a job best left for NS3
it can be used by all players effectively, by having a very low threshold to learn to use the thing and has a very low skill ceiling. Other weapons are much more potent than the noob tube if you have the skills...
So in a way, we would need to implement something like that...
Something which is effective versus any player (skillevel), usually a one burst high damage dealer
- low skill threshold
- low skill ceiling to offset versus much more effective weapons
And in way, crits tied to gameplay elements do this up to a point. Then I added that forced skill ceiling, because without that it won't work as intended (helping newbies). That's why I added the "low accuracy crit boost" bit based on @SantaClaws's concern, which in itself is indeed exploitable
Hang on.. Why does it have to be a one burst high dmg dealer? First of all, the grenade launcher is not a one burst weapon. The onos is a kind of noobtube, that's not a one burst lifeform either. And as I proposed earlier, you can have a homing projectile type weapon - with medium but reliable dps.
You could even make a support type gun, like the medic gun as @ZERObis facetiously points out, which would be very rookie friendly.
I don't think we should look for a high burst dmg dealer - We have the shotgun for that, although that is certainly no rookie weapon. Instead we should look to having medium type reliable dps.
You could even tweak the flamethrower for this - right now it actually requires a lot of tracking skill to connect with that weapon. But if you increased the cone and the firerate, that would go a long way I think.
Moreover, my "concern" about crits based on accuracy being exploitable is only scratching the surface. My major objection, is that your proposal does little, that a flat dmg boost based on accuracy does not.
I just said it is usually a one burst high damage dealer, for easy of use. And tends to be an AOE, the shotty is a point and click adventure, but if you miss you have that reload cycle which will get you killed, ergo skill based twitch weapon.
The Onos might be a noob tube to some extent, but it's also a very misleading lifeform. it looks like a tank and it is kinda, but it will also die very fast due to being so friggin' huge and misjudging the potential damage output from marines. So again, it's skill ceiling is much higher than a "noob tube"
With a "noob toob", I only mean as I said, easy to use with a low skill ceiling. So it can be anything as long as those two things are met (high short burst damage, consistent guaranteed damage, AOE burst and such)
I would assume you have vast experience of what happens when a new player spawns an onos?
Runs around, misses every single gore and dies without inflicting any damage. Hardly a noob friendly element is it?
The other thing against Onos being noob friendly is you only get to use it late game, and thats only IF your team is doing well AND you forego any of the other lifeforms. How is that noob friendly?
I don't want to go into my ideas for remaking NS2 more friendly to new players through better mechanic design and more intuitive progression of the mechanics, as it is boring, and quite frankly, not much use now as we are way too far down the path.
I do want to say however that for future versions of the game, mechanics need to be thought through using a more holistic approach. Everything should be naturally integrated and more complex mechanics should always be a progression on an easier mechanic, not a 180-about-face-completely-new-and-opposite-to-everything-else system..
NS2 was an ambitious project, and I still think it is amazing that the game ever saw the light of day, however, I think the ambition slightly outstripped the resources (financial not talent), and as a result, pressures saw a game that maybe wasn't all it could have been, even though it is magnificent for what it is.
+ @Soul_Rider This absolutely applies to the onos. Sure, a guy who just installed the game will flash his onos. Fine. A guy with a noobtube who just installed Cod, will also do poorly... But as long as you have basic understanding of the game, the onos health, the marine dmg output - you will do well with an Onos even with the most shitty mechanical skills. That is what is referred as noobtube here, (I'm well aware that it is also an actual weapon in cod).
It is a tool that allows you to do well with BAD mechanical skills - and Onos is a prime example of it. I don't care that it's lategame tech.
NinjaEdit: A noobtube, should not be a weapon that excuses bad decision making mistakes. If that is what you want in NS2, then NO THANKS!
Help with bad mechanical skills, as a buffer until players gain the mechanical skill to adopt the traditional weapons, Yes Please!
An onos is not noob friendly because you need to know:
How to close distance without taking too much damage (requires skill and game/map knowledge).
How to aim that ridiculous gore so it actually hits a target (requires skill again).
How to track enemy players with your slow turning circle (requires skill and game knowledge).
Compare this to the noobtoob:
Stay as far from enemies as possible (no skill required)
Aim in any direction where there might be enemies (No skill required)
Fire (no skill required)
You see the difference?
You are looking at how difficult Onos is from an experienced players point of view. It is no where near comparable to a noobtoob.
I agree with your 100% statement about a noobtoob being:
"a tool that allows you to do well with BAD mechanical skills"
I disagree 100% that an onos is an example of this. Absolutely, it is one of the simpler elements of NS2, without a shadow of a doubt, but even the most simple of NS2 elements is WAY above what could be called a noobtoob.
Firstly, bring back the glancing bite/strike mechanic for aliens. This only really serves to improve the experience for the lower skilled players as it gives the players who should by all means be damaging their enemy at that range a partial assist in damage for a bite/strike that would otherwise completely miss their target.
Secondly, a side-grade for the assault rifle. Higher damage and a broader firing cone, similar to the HMG in the regard of bullet spray but nowhere near as much damage so it isn't a straight upgrade. Problem with the basic assault rifle is the first gun you get in the game is one of the ones with the highest skill ceiling, the accuracy is high enough to negatively affect those whose aim are poor and those who are unfamiliar to tracking or leading alien players. Competitive players might find the side-grade a crutch as you wouldn't be reliably finishing off retreating lerks a room away, but for those of us whose confirmed hits are few and far between the increased chance to deal damage at a close range would be an instant boon.
Lastly make the pistol shoot automatically while holding the fire button down, like the shotgun. The pistol is a very powerful gun that doesn't get used frequently in casual games, for competitive players it's often used for it's high dps on unarmed targets but outside of running a pistol script most casual players aren't going to use it effectively in combat due to it's click determined firing rate and small firing cone requiring a steady hand while spamming the fire button which is a skill not every player has. This is just an unnecessary skill ceiling in my eyes.
Slightly off topic in regards to crits, but these things would help bridge the gap between newer players and veterans in a confrontation.
The pistol kills are some of the most satisfying frags I've gotten in any game. I really think your proposal would compromise the feel of the gun, and said satisfaction.
Your last remark, I obviously oppose, for reasons I have already stated.
I knew the pistol change idea would be the least liked, however my reasons for the intended change is already what you have said. Raising the skill floor of the pistol by making it accessible to more players than it currently is. If we're balancing a weapon on it's difficulty of use then it's going to continue being a useless sidearm to the majority of lower skilled players, while simultaneously being laser precision machine gun in the hands of the higher skilled(or a script user).
I'd personally trade the satisfaction of using the weapon in it's current state to have a better balanced and more level playing field in regards to overall weapon/player balance.
I think the problem lies more with there not being a natural flow to progression. I mean, with aliens, each time you 'progress' to a newer more powerful lifeform, you have to learn the entire movement scheme from scratch. That means 5 times longer to learn the aliens movements than marines, right off the bat, without the already confusing differences in aliens compared to marines.
I have implemented many balance ideas in my mod already. Feel free to give it a test. (The Rifle self knockback may be a little over the top right now lol)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=406111448&searchtext=pandora