Clog pole>Glog wall

ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
edited February 2014 in NS2 General Discussion
I've noticed a lot of people still build the standard clog wall where they put 4-5 clogs floating in the air across an entrance, like so:

GLhf4bc.jpg

...and this is the worst clog setup in my opinion, unless you have multiple gorges that create a true wall where they just put piles of clogs (15-20). These Gorge setups provide the least amount of benefit for protecting you and the teams structures, and here is why:

1. Shooting 1 clog destroys your mini clog wall, as one side of the wall falls. These clogs walls are always shot down with little to no effort.
2. Rebuilding after half the wall falls is clumsy. You have to destroy certain clogs that fell, or you will just destroy your other mini wall as your clog inventory spots overlap.
2. It's almost always easily jumped over or crouched under, which defeats the purpose of being a wall blockade.
3. It provides you no cover of defense when Marines breach past your wall with little to no effort.
4. It blocks higher life forms mid and late game, "clog blocked" if I may.

...and this is why I believe the clog poles are more useful. Here is an example of a clog pole setup:

PVopS0E.jpg

...so why is this better?

1. Marines typically don't shoot these types of setup because they provide no resistance to their path. "But isn't that the point of the clog?". Yes, but in the clog wall setup, you usually give resistance for 5 seconds while they shoot down 1 clog. Once it's breached you have no cover. Which my next point...
2. It gives superior cover and creates many angles to hide yourself and objects. Once a few marines come in shooting, you have a maze of clog poles you can snake in and out of while backup comes or aliens bros are cleaning up. It makes killing you a lot harder running in and out of view, opposed to running around a big wide open room. Make sure it's spaced enough where you can perfectly fit between all of them. I typically like to throw hydras on the back of the clog pole as you can see in the image above. This will deal damage as the Marines are chasing you around your little maze. You're essentially forcing them into your hydra pit range if they want to kill you. If you can get the commander to drop you a whip or two hidden around the poles, it becomes a very strong setup.

Pole snaking -
VLBpXC.gif

3. Super easy to rebuild your clog pole set up, as the clogs just drop in place if one is destroyed.
4. Won't block higher life forms and creates less of a choke point for all life forms.
5. Much better for setting up traps to lure marines into.

More images:
Hydras setup
Onos view, plenty of room to fit on left
Top down view

This is thead is just my opinion and from experience playing Gorge for many hours.
Yes, pole snaking sounds like a stripper move.
This exact setup shown won't work on every map. You must readjust and position depending on hallway/corridor/entrance.
Post edited by ns2isgood on
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Comments

  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    Decent strategy for active gorge defending. Not very helpful if you aren't sitting in the room the whole time though.

    As far as walls go, I usually use towers. Make 2 towers 3 clogs high (or 3 towers for a wide door). If any clog is shot the tower simply falls down one space. Repairing it is as simple as putting a fresh clog on top of the stack. The downside is that it doesn't support a gorge exit, but then any space a gorge can fit through a marine can as well.
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    If I were a marine watching a gorge "snaking" like that, I would just jump on one of the poles and have free reign on them while they're trying so hard to snake instead of hitting me with spit.

    I feel confident that I have the most hours in gorge since the release of NS2 (can't be completely sure, of course), and throughout this time I've tried many different types of clog walls (including these pillars you're posting) and find that building two 4clog-high towers with a small hole in it is the best way to clog a doorway without blocking it completely. Clearly onos can't get through this, but you shouldn't be building clog walls off the floor by that point in the game (will expand on this later.)

    http://i.imgur.com/fLRl7OV.jpg
    This blocks the entire mid/left side of the door. For the marines to get through the doorway, they must crouch through the hole and move forward slowly as you hit him with a minimum of three 3 spit (90 damage) and your hydras hit him twice (for 60 damage total). Now if they wanted to get through without crouching by destroying clogs, they are forced to shoot a minimum of two clogs. To get over the towers, you need to shoot the top two clogs otherwise you can't jump onto it. To get through the right side, you must shoot both 'overpass' clogs (they aren't attached to each other, one to the left and one to the right).

    Now, when jetpacks come out you should adapt to counter those.
    http://imgur.com/a/qrtlT
    I build them from the ceiling because it is a lot easier to destroy two clogs at the top of a tower and fly over the wall than it is to break through this wall, unless you break minimum of three clogs (when mature that's like 3 rifle mags? and a whole lotta noise.) At this point in this game I don't think it's really useful to try and clog up doorways with jetpacks/shotguns/GL/flamethrowers, I think it's better to put the clogs around your upgrades.

    Your pillars definitely are better than the first screenshot you posted, though. It'd also work better in Nanogrid than mine (unless you have another gorge) because you can only block one side. edit: a good point brought up by a friend is that when my friend and I play gorge, we aren't very keen with the 'run away and heal yourself' gorge playstyle (which looks like these pillars are), we'd rather just kill the marine.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,191 admin
    Yes, Yes, and YES.
    Thank you for posting this.
    I always shoot the left or right one - its a 50% chance the whole thing falls and then i just walk over it.

    Although.. I am not sure those pesky nests need to be further improved on, hehe.
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  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members Posts: 323 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    If I were a marine watching a gorge "snaking" like that, I would just jump on one of the poles and have free reign on them while they're trying so hard to snake instead of hitting me with spit.

    Never had anyone do that and I've been using this setup for a long time. Even then, a nicely placed whip and being shot by hydras will pull your attention away from wanting to do that, or you would die quickly.
    http://i.imgur.com/fLRl7OV.jpg
    This blocks the entire mid/left side of the door. For the marines to get through the doorway, they must crouch through the hole and move forward slowly as you hit him with a minimum of three 3 spit (90 damage) and your hydras hit him twice (for 60 damage total). Now if they wanted to get through without crouching by destroying clogs, they are forced to shoot a minimum of two clogs. To get over the towers, you need to shoot the top two clogs otherwise you can't jump onto it. To get through the right side, you must shoot both 'overpass' clogs (they aren't attached to each other, one to the left and one to the right).

    Yeah, but we come to the issue of clog blocks. This is essentially a death sentence for a higher life form with low hp fleeing from chase. The rabbit hole is also pretty much an easy giveaway for which direction the aliens will go to enter and leave, which will lead to very easy kills. There is practically no prediction for the Marine in this scenario, just aim at the hole and wait. This is a huge choke point and I generally like to avoid that. Imagine 2-3 people at the same time trying to use the hole.
    Now, when jetpacks come out you should adapt to counter those.
    http://imgur.com/a/qrtlT
    I build them from the ceiling because it is a lot easier to destroy two clogs at the top of a tower and fly over the wall than it is to break through this wall, unless you break minimum of three clogs (when mature that's like 3 rifle mags? and a whole lotta noise.) At this point in this game I don't think it's really useful to try and clog up doorways with jetpacks/shotguns/GL/flamethrowers, I think it's better to put the clogs around your upgrades.

    This is a great idea, but I generally give up clogging when JP come out and just focus on bile rushes. The AA weapons just annihilate clogs effortlessly, it's usually not even worth the effort if they keep hitting it. If I happen to come across the area and the clogs are down, I will just throw it up quickly. I can see this being real useful though and going to give it a shot sometime, thanks for posting it.

    a good point brought up by a friend is that when my friend and I play gorge, we aren't very keen with the 'run away and heal yourself' gorge playstyle (which looks like these pillars are), we'd rather just kill the marine.

    Part of this setup is that it has the option to be used as a safety net for the gorge to fall back on if need be and that is why I demonstrated that aspect. Every time I play this game I always see the same thing happen every few matches, Marine jumps or shoots clog wall, gorge runs around in circles in a wide open room and dies because he has no one to help. If you want to rambo gorge and go ham, go for it, this setup shouldn't have any affect on your playstyle.
    Post edited by ns2isgood on
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  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    Way too many gorges create clog "blockades" that can either be ducked under, jumped over, or destroyed by killing a single clog
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    Responsible for more fade deaths than shotguns.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    I've never actually understood people that build clog walls the way displayed in the first image, for reasons already stated.
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  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 750 Advanced user
    As an alien, I always destroy every clog 'gate' I run into, no matter what the gorge says or starts flaming. They're more detrimental to the alien team than they are useful, unless the marine team is braindead and refuses to push onwards because of the mighty clogs.
  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 616 Fully active user
    Ive favored the clog towers for a while though its very situational, really good informative post.


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  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Posts: 1,194
    I've never actually understood people that build clog walls the way displayed in the first image, for reasons already stated.

    Because they're lazy as hell. :D All you gotta do is spam clog key and move your mouse from left to right - a semi wall-looking thing created! Wohoo! :P

    When I'm making clog walls I never think how they WILL work, I always think how INTIMIDATING they look, because I know as soon as marines figure out "hey there's actually 5 of us and we can just run in and insta-pwn everything" -the game is already lost. My only hope is scaring them off long enough to get backup. :P
    image
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    I've never actually understood people that build clog walls the way displayed in the first image, for reasons already stated.

    Because they're lazy as hell. :D All you gotta do is spam clog key and move your mouse from left to right - a semi wall-looking thing created! Wohoo! :P

    When I'm making clog walls I never think how they WILL work, I always think how INTIMIDATING they look, because I know as soon as marines figure out "hey there's actually 5 of us and we can just run in and insta-pwn everything" -the game is already lost. My only hope is scaring them off long enough to get backup. :P

    Sadly, there is some truth in there.
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    true.. a clog tower is in all cases more effective.
    Then again, many clogs I see in game are... poorly placed. Go experiment, fun fun!
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  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 151 Fully active user
    In nano I prefer to do two towers in each doorway roughly centered. A 2 high and a 3 high. If spaced right it limits entry to one marine at a time on foot, gives one gorge enough clogs to deal with both doorways the same, and shouldn't block higher life forms (sans onos) in mid game.

    the other thing I see people doing in nano is placing all three hydras above the power node. This allows Marines to block line of sight with all of them by standing behind the RT. I prefer to drop them evenly spaced around the room so chip damage happens no matter where they are standing.
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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    IMHO, the best thing to do is to build towers in the entrances, BUT attach them to the ceiling. This makes it so skulks can exit without being immediately at shotgun level, and after the marines kill the top one to detach it, they still can't get over the top of the tower. (If they even think to shoot at the top one.) Also, marines shooting at the top clog are less likely to also hit any exiting aliens, so skulks can get the jump on them more easily.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    IMHO, the best thing to do is to build towers in the entrances, BUT attach them to the ceiling. This makes it so skulks can exit without being immediately at shotgun level, and after the marines kill the top one to detach it, they still can't get over the top of the tower. (If they even think to shoot at the top one.) Also, marines shooting at the top clog are less likely to also hit any exiting aliens, so skulks can get the jump on them more easily.

    What if marines just crouch?
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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    IMHO, the best thing to do is to build towers in the entrances, BUT attach them to the ceiling. This makes it so skulks can exit without being immediately at shotgun level, and after the marines kill the top one to detach it, they still can't get over the top of the tower. (If they even think to shoot at the top one.) Also, marines shooting at the top clog are less likely to also hit any exiting aliens, so skulks can get the jump on them more easily.

    What if marines just crouch?
    Crouching marines are quite edible. :) (Or spikable by hydras) Also, you can still make them extend all the way to the floor if you want to.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,466 Advanced user
    moultano wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    IMHO, the best thing to do is to build towers in the entrances, BUT attach them to the ceiling. This makes it so skulks can exit without being immediately at shotgun level, and after the marines kill the top one to detach it, they still can't get over the top of the tower. (If they even think to shoot at the top one.) Also, marines shooting at the top clog are less likely to also hit any exiting aliens, so skulks can get the jump on them more easily.

    What if marines just crouch?
    Crouching marines are quite edible. :) (Or spikable by hydras) Also, you can still make them extend all the way to the floor if you want to.

    And if they have shotties?
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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    Thankfully clogs have their weaknesses and aren't able to counter every marine advance :D Yes sometimes they are plain useless, but that is good, otherwise they would be overpowered. For every situation you find an issue in, there is another where they work. :D
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  • G_of_the_JG_of_the_J Join Date: 2013-08-12 Member: 186764Members Posts: 69 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    I prefer walls in early games, like in first pic. Main thing here is managing clogs and slowing marines down. It is easily destroyed but it is also easily defended. Managing clogs, you can clog up locker or nano and you still have 2 spare clogs. If you place clogs from 2 walls, shooting 1 clog will drop only 1 clog from wall so its not really slow to build back. And if you are in hurry, u can do pole on top of that clog that just got dropped from wall.

    In a basic 2x3clogwall, rines still get in after shooting 1 clog. Just like in wallclogging.

    That pole strat need gorge presence, allthought its really nice. No gorge and rines just walk in.

    If i do poles, i do it like Moultano.
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  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Did you know that spreading all of your clogs on the ground one by one is semi-effective against GL spam (especially indirect spam, when marines bounce grenades from some place to hit hive/upgrades)? Grenades explode upon touching clogs, so they don't make all the way to intended target. And each clog can sustain up to 5 grenades.

    It is also helps 'shorter' lifeforms (skulks and gorges) to evade some of the bullets in case of direct fire. It doesn't cover you whole, but a good portion of your body, and ten clogs can be spread on a big area, allowing you to maneuver or maximize chances of escape. One note: the further away are marines, the more effective is this setup. Next to completely useless when marines are close.

    I will try to get a picture.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    Clogs are really great for countering GLs and railgun exos because of the unique way they take damage. It takes 4-5 grenades and rail shots to kill a single clog
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 581 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    moultano wrote: »
    IMHO, the best thing to do is to build towers in the entrances, BUT attach them to the ceiling. This makes it so skulks can exit without being immediately at shotgun level, and after the marines kill the top one to detach it, they still can't get over the top of the tower. (If they even think to shoot at the top one.) Also, marines shooting at the top clog are less likely to also hit any exiting aliens, so skulks can get the jump on them more easily.

    What if marines just crouch?

    Then they eat three spits from the gorge and one or two hits from the hydras, just around 150 damage. :)
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 151 Fully active user
    2014-02-24_00002.jpg?psid=1

    Not ideal, Marines can jump over either side, but it limits them to 1 at a time, and blocks LOS to the res nodes from the hallway. Late and mid game I would expect some of the wall to be busted down allowing higher life forms easier mobility, but for first gorge in it should slow marines down enough to let skulks get the jump on them. I think the idea of "walling off" nano is really only viable with skulk support early game. Once you can get some support structures, a whip or two, crag, shift etc. Swtiching to the columns for snaking might make more sense.
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  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 336 Fully active user
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  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,037
    Am I to assume, based on the above image, that the Evolution Chamber is still being tested and may one day be added to the game?

    If so, hell to the yes.
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 677 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Clog poles are also extremely useful for creating line of sight blocks down hallways allowing gorges to be more aggressive.

    A little planning ahead and map awareness goes a long way.

    Ball court on docking is a great spot to try this. 2-3 high depending how likely they are to get shot. Your "pole snaking" idea comes into play here too :). Another spot is between containment and turbine on refinery. Two great spots to allow gorges to pressure in otherwise risky areas.
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  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 877 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Poles are a great idea for breaking up long hallways (Marine shooting galleries). Thanks for the tip, now my battle gorge will be more battle than ever. Hazzaaaaa!!
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  • kmgkmg Join Date: 2008-02-28 Member: 63758Members Posts: 157 Fully active user
    i'm gonna have to necro this thread to point out that "clog pole snaking" sounds like a really rank sexual maneuver.
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  • RadimaXRadimaX Join Date: 2013-02-05 Member: 182840Members Posts: 587 Advanced user
    i love running around harvesters like in pipes pawn on veil, both with gorge healing and even marine actually...
    one time an onos tried hit left right left right right right left right left left, and i was just changing paths behind the harvester since he cannot fit around the back, so he must back out to run to other side all while im axing the harvester trying to avoid an attack :D took like over a minute with the crag in their base but i got it at the end haha wish i recorded! :D
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