Potential Concede Tweaks?
Calego
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
We've got a thread in general discussion about concede opinions. So here's one on what might work as a tweak. Just so I don't get any "nothing" posts, I'll go ahead and add that to my initial list of potential suggestions.
How about something where the commander has to initiate the concede option?
The commander is the overarching dictator of the game. He's the eye in the sky that should have a better idea of how things are going than any individual ground unit. So it kinda makes sense that the commander be the one that initiates the concede vote.
EDIT: Alright, I'll toss this out there too to get it out of the way:
There. Now, assuming we want to change something, what would work best?Nothin, concede is fine as is.
How about something where the commander has to initiate the concede option?
The commander is the overarching dictator of the game. He's the eye in the sky that should have a better idea of how things are going than any individual ground unit. So it kinda makes sense that the commander be the one that initiates the concede vote.
EDIT: Alright, I'll toss this out there too to get it out of the way:
Now lets find something between the extremes.Remove it altogether
Comments
Also displaying concede message is a bad idea because that would only increase overall concede time which is rather bad in my opinoin.
Besides the fact that I think it's fine as is here are some suggestions:
-Server config value on team percentage needed for concede to succeed with a min and max of X percent. (Min 50% max is 80% for example).
-Concede only after 10 minutes after game start.
-Concede based on personal player round score (higher score means higher vote count).
-when a vote would normally end the game, prompt the winning team with an accept vote, so the concede has to be allowed
-the prompt should be something on the scoresheet, so it's not affecting a player's FOV
No way. I don't expect to ever see a concede vote go through if the opposing team must allow it. Too many people are more interested in beating up the other team rather than winning. When one team concedes, you have won. Let's get started on the next game already.
I like the ideas of showing the voting totals, and prompting the team when a concede vote has started. I also like the ideas of changing the concede into a mini game where one team makes an All or Nothing move that will end the game one way or the other. Such as the marine team prepping to "nuke the site from orbit; its the only way to be sure" or the alien version being some kind of bio-bomb that will infect the nanites and cause them to cannibalize the entire station; if the opposing team does not stop them.
Also somewhere there was a thread about making concede a server option to enable or disable. I'm in favor of that for server customization sake.
Interesting idea but I think Torak's right about there being too many people that would just deny and continue curb stomping the losing team.
@Arkahm719 While I dislike concede as is, I recognize how it is necessary in some cases. It is indeed a better option than recycling the base and from a server standpoint, it's better than having people leave. In any case, the idea behind this thread is what would a good tweak be, short of removing it all together but more than leaving it alone.
I saw one one happen after we rine fight our ass off to comeback, we could have concede, but were fighting (and concede or not, when moral is out team is out).
On Docking, we went back from a single terminal and 1 rt to terminal + Cafeteria + then lockers.
At this point I said on the mic "I can feel the alien team moral breaking".
At we get maintenance then Generator down, the aliens conceded, there was nothing else to do at this point.
It was a beautiful epic match, aliens were not losers, they were too confidents and got uncoordinated as we gathered our energy. They tried to regain advantage many times, it was an epic battle (not a bore)
Concede is fine ! Let us manage moral wich is an important part of a game.
I guess I'm a bit more jaded than the average person, play more than a thousand games and you might find yourself leaning towards my line of thinking.
Yes, but that 's precisely my point : Get the team on the fight, rally them. Thats when leadership makes a difference. Get them on the move ! Any move ! the objective in itself may be secondary, the first purpose is to get the team back at the fight.
It is full part of the challenge. When the team concede you're beaten.
What bloody leadership is there in removing the concede button or make it an 20 minutes approval ?
I'll tell you what, true losers are those precisely who can't stand the presence of the concede option (a bit of provocation here but what the hey!)
Conceding IS losing.
Do you watch MMA? Should they remove tap-outs? After all, you got the person in that position, it's your right to break their arm no?
The message you put forth here is not that you want to win; it is that you want to beat up on the losers. And how dare they admit you won before you have "put the beat down" on them.
PS: I was playing competitive FPS games before NS1 was even out. I have more than 1000 games under my belt. I don't need to "lol pwn" the losing team to know I have won.
Agreed, for added fun, turn it into Sudden Death where every player on the conceding side takes damage and no respawn allowed :P
Satisfaction is in the way the round was played. Raping the last base if the other side don't feel like playing to the last man ? What for ? Get them bored ? Empty server ? If they don't want to play it to the last man, so be it.
I definatly don't understand how you can conceive to force people to play. Gaming is not working, you're not on duty, you're in for entertainment.
Damnit !
You're only getting "beaten up" if you don't enjoy the game when losing (a part of the game). Take a minute and wonder at what might make a person not enjoy the losing aspect of a game that they are obviously a fan of. Then consider if that is something that should be catered to. What's worse, is that the only part of the game I'm restricted to, is the late-game portion of winning games, sometimes games I really held down in, because those are the only ones that seem to get cut short.
PS I've also been playing competitive FPS' from before ns1, and in ns1/ns2. Besides that, I play to have fun the entire game, it's not about an end-point, I don't need to know I won, or even win. I just want my full games. My intentions are not so cynical, I find it's others' that are.
MMA fighters don't normally concede when they still have a very good chance of winning. I've seen to many games end with teams conceding while holding 2 tech points. You also can't have your fucking arm broken while playing NS2 so it's not really a valid comparison. The server admins need to have control over how concede works.
The idea is for the feature to enhance gameplay in some fashion, offering an additional choice for a losing team. As the feature currently is it is simply the lesser evil, better to have a concede option than for the commander to recycle for example.
^ This....
By putting up the numbers when a vote starts you give the other players on the team to try to rally the troops.
If you cant convince the team to play on then a victory is not possible (as they have given up emotionally) and we need to just end the game.
If this then leads to a mini game scenario similar to the above that can last no more than 2 min...we have a pretty different way of ending a round.
If the conceding team holds out its an honourable loss...if they dont then they are nothing but an embarrassment to TSA/Kharaa.
This allows an opportunity to re-invigorate your team before a concede goes through....and provide the winning team a task with a timer (so no long turtles).
Not every game will end in a concede, there are times though when a concede is needed.
A comm recycling is 1 person dictatorship that only 1 side has the ability to do (cant recycle eggs) and as such has always made playing aliens more tedious.
Concede vote has just allowed the alien team with a majority to do what a marine comm has always been able to do....end a round.
Concede needs some tweaks, the premise is good (heck its why we had surrender vote mods in ns1) we just need to tweak...also allows for a different way of viewing a loss (rally bad or saved face).
Some sort of counter to tell both teams that the other team is conceding seems like a bare minimum idea.
I get the feeling this could slice two ways. It'll end up having the same effect as one player telling everyone to concede. The more numbers that rack up, the more likely someone is to toss in their vote. Again, that could go two ways depending on the current game-situation. Which is why I like my commander-initiated system as a fail-safe of sorts.
Tieing concede into a "No more spawns" for the losing team sounds like a pretty nice idea. The winning team still gets the win, it's still fast (though not instant), and the losing team still loses.
It's also been tossed around to have concede require a more comprehensive list of requirements. E.g. Other team have 3 tech points claimed, full upgrades, and losing team be down to one hive and one rt. Thoughts?
Having requirements that simply draw out the game is counter productive, people will just leave if they cant concede a dead game.
Being rolled over and over on 1 hive as marines "tech up" is terrible game play for aliens.
Concede does not not a huge overall, the notification and progress #'s of a vote is about all that is probably really glaringly wrong.
The end game scenarios are ways of perhaps getting in some features spit balled through out the beta (ie nukes).
If its simply a last man standing thats pretty damn boring, it can lead to drawn out periods where 7+ ppl watch 1 person...who may well be hiding for 2+ minutes.
If concede does not totally end the round then it has to produce a time, spawn & tech limited scenario for the losing side to hold a room (or atleast have a player alive in a certain room).
Lets not have the skulk hiding off the side of crevice unable to be killed by a team of exos....as an extreme example.
Its just not a fun thing for most people, who would rather a new round was started.
Thats why I think that you need a short timer...and you might as well create a reason for that timer to be in place (which is the idea MMZ_torak was referring to).
It actually fits well into the whole game concept...TSA want to eradicate all trace of kharaa....who want to infest all of space.
Marines (especially future space type marines...) are selfless soldiers who would not flinch from holding a targeting device for a nuke...heck it would be seen as an honor.
The kharra trying to keep their last hive alive for 2 min before it self destruct exploding sending biological terraforming probes in all directions...sites of future battles.
When I mentioned the vote only being available under certain conditions, the foremost one I was considering is that the conceding team have only one hive/chair. As long as you are holding two points you should still have a reasonable chance of winning, unless you are in the middle of being steamrolled and won't be holding two for much longer anyway. Furthermore trying to destroy 2 or more hives or chairs in sudden death might be too time consuming. Such a restriction would help immensely even with the standard concede system to prevent premature quitting.
Problem is what happens if you have 2 tech points but only 2 res nodes?
Not exactly in a position to fight back...either as alien or marines.
The problem is how do you define "in a position of being able to win"?
Player skill, commander decision, available res, res nodes, tech tree etc etc....rather than trying to build an algorithm to decide when people would want to concede...how about we simply leave it up to the people playing?
You dont know the morale levels of the people playing...those comebacks require a team that believe its can be done.
Docking is a good example of a map where marines can let aliens have 2 hives (gen and departures) and limit them to only 2-3 res nodes pretty easily.
To limit aliens to hives is silly....and not practical with marines...as they only need 2 to have all tech available and holding 3 is not something marines teams normally do (unless they are swimming in res).
I think if one side has screwed the pooch....they should be able to hit an abort button....doesn't matter how many tech points/hives you have....the one your comm/khamm is in is the one you must defend from a fully tech'd enemy for 2 min.
No respawning....no upgrades for defending side.....its not meant to be easy...but a quick way to end it...that offers some fun to the winners and a motivation to play out a little to the losers.
Same deal with marines, although it's less tech for them. When marines have two bases they are guaranteed at least two res if not three, which is plenty to pump out jetpacks and ninja phase gates if nothing else. Plus they have enough map control that it's hard if not impossible for the aliens to box them in on all sides. They actually have a bit better of a chance on one base, albeit briefly, because they still have the majority of their tech. Once the aliens start closing in on both sides though it's game over no matter how long it takes.
I think limiting concede to one tech point would eliminate the majority of premature quitting,
Aliens struggle on 2 hives if they went shade first or second....and being stuck on two hives is game over.
Just because you have 2 tech points does not mean you have upgrades....nor does it mean you have the res to buy higher lifeforms.
Rather than forcing people to play a game that they believe is lost why not allow the majority of a team to decide if they have a chance?
This is no different to allowing the comm to recycle (except a hell of a lot more democratic) when they feel their team has lost (or is simply ignoring them).
This simply over complicates what really is a subjective analysis best done by those present in the game.
If you feel you have no way to influence your team not to concede vote...then the game is lost.
Concede needs work, but dont get confused and remember that 2 hives for aliens is far from full tech....marines have full tech on 2 tech points.
How it has been set up works well...people in the game can make a call (most are adult enough).
Premature quiting is an interesting turn of phrase....indicates that you feel you want to keep playing....but if the majority of the team thats losing doesn't they will either concede vote or leave the servers.
Would you rather a new game start in 5 min...or the server ends up empty?
Its not like I'm suggesting that they automatically concede when they lose the second base, just that they don't have the option to concede as long as they are holding it. I find this to be a general improvement over being allowed to concede at virtually any time
Marines will not lot w3 or a3 unless aliens take out their armory.
Now remember marines can recycle things to achieve what ever limits you set for a concede vote...yet aliens cant.
The only restriction on concede should be atleast 50% of the losing side to vote for it. Putting in place any other restrictions is simply taking control away from those in the game.
The team playing the losing game thats conceding knows if they can win...knows whether the team has one last push in it or whether the struggle of the last ~15 minutes has worn them down.
Bad mistakes early can be almost impossible to recover from...unless the other comm/khamm makes a stuff up themselves.
Let the players playing decide if their team stands a chance...they have much more up to date info about player skill levels involved in the game.
Also, if you think everyone will be happy sitting there watching a 2 minute game of hide and seek you've got another thing coming. If I can't spawn, I fire up the server browser straight away.
The only suggestion I would agree with is limiting the vote to owning only 1 hive or com chair. Not that I have ever seen a concede from a team that had 2.
Also, any kind of time limit on finishing the enemy off should only be applicable when you have a mature Hive on every other tech point. I could see it being abused for easy marine "wins" other wise. Say it was 2 hives vs 2 comm chairs, then aliens just took a tech point but lost an onos 2 in the process, if the marines voted some end game timer, the aliens would still be 2 hive abilities and not be in a great position to finish it. The rines could still have an exo in base a pile of jet packs on the ground or anything.
90% of games are decided well within 10min