I Think The Playtesters Were Right...
Chron
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
<div class="IPBDescription">we were SOOO stupid</div> The game WAS balanced before 1.01. No one knew how to play aliens, so they sucked and bitched.
Thats what we get for bitching so soon. I think you unbalanced it just to teach the community a lesson. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thats what we get for bitching so soon. I think you unbalanced it just to teach the community a lesson. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
First there was the resource thign where marines have an advantage
secondly they toned down Fades before the first release for whatever reason, now they just changed it back to however it's supposed to be (and the nades too)
I'm going to agree that Aliens <i>do</i> win more matches, but that is just because of a marine team who can't work together or the commander is inexperienced.
First game was a good, long game of Get The Hive - maybe 30 minutes of fighting off marines to take the map. Fantastic firefights at the Generator, and between the marine start and the Sewer - I was mostly at the Sewer side, skulking along the ceiling to drop and take out marine clusters and their turret attempts. Then going fade for the final thrust back towards their base, sealing off the Sewer side completely. Great fun, not an easy win by far. The marines made some good moves toward the Sewer but never claimed it. Generator was a bit tougher.
Second game was a great skulk rush - infantry portals down, cluster of skulks on the CC chomping away, marines scattered helpless throughout the map - not guarding their base! - and I even got to chomp the commander (Llama, grrr).
Unbalanced ? I'd say the game is tighter now - and not just because of code tweaks. Everyone is more experienced. Our gorges had some rather serious, constant banter going on about who had how many resources where and planned to do what. Marines stuck together. Don't know what they intended to do on the second round..
Anyway - what's unbalanced ? You're bitching but not saying anything.
I've played with a decent comm. Problem is, the moment aliens get fades, HA+HMG can't stand up to hit and run splash damage. then the reload time is like a death sentance.
The secret to being marines is getting at least one of their hives. From there it's generally HMG marines vs fades, and with a good commander you can out resource the aliens and turret creep to the second hive. Marines are just as strong than aliens(if not stronger *ahem* siege turret, medpack spam) , they just have to be handled correctly.
1. Splash from acid rocket
2. if fade blinks in to slash, most of your HMG rounds are gonna go into a teammate rather then Fade, although no FF, but your just wasting rounds.
now if you had split up slightly (advantages) -
1. acid rocket wouldn't be doing as much splash
2. you could hit the Fade from the sides or behind, cutting off there common retreat tactics to get healed, since marines in armor with hmgs cant directly outrun Fades.
When i'm a fade and i see an hmg round the corner, i start firing, he starts firing. I run around a corner to regen/get energy and do you know what the HMG does? He calls for ammo, or asks for a weld, or calls for backup. You know what he needs to do? CHASE ME. I'm low on life, only have energy remaining for 2 acid balls, and will be easy picking if the HMG would grow a pair.
1. Splash from acid rocket
2. if fade blinks in to slash, most of your HMG rounds are gonna go into a teammate rather then Fade, although no FF, but your just wasting rounds.
now if you had split up slightly (advantages) -
1. acid rocket wouldn't be doing as much splash
2. you could hit the Fade from the sides or behind, cutting off there common retreat tactics to get healed, since marines in armor with hmgs cant directly outrun Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry I didn't mean stick together like you were all experimenting with crazy glue and WHOOPPSS! I meant stick together as in all be in the same general area.
Actually I agree with you in a way...often when I'm in narrow co-oridors, and a pack of HMG+HA armour are moving forward to kill some fades some idiot in the fron will dodge back and forth, taking most of the friendly fire in the back.
I told the rest of my team to do the following, which was badass....we had two guys go shoulder to shoulder in front crouching, and then two behind them shoulder to shoulder standing tall. Slowly moving forward + 4 hmg's all firing and hitting = the win.
Keep this in mind: HA, at base level, gives you 200 armor. It soaks 95% of your incoming damage, and only applies half of that to itself, which gives you the ability to take essentially 10 acid rocket hits in a row before going down. Upgrade it to level 3, and you've got a guy walking around with as much armor on him as a carapaced Onos, with a better absorbtion rate too. Throw a welder into that mix, and you've got some real "ultimate badass" factor goin' on. At 200/150, the fade is basically just as tough.
"Reload time is death?" That HMG you're lugging around has a 150 round belt in it. If you're fighting a fade, on your own, and manage to go through the entire belt, you're in deep **obscenity** anyway. 150x18 is 2700 points of damage... about 5 times what you need to put a fade down, even when jacked up with carapace. If you've gone through all of that, you're either missing too much, too far away from the fade (in which case dodging the acid rocket shouldn't be hard), or it's a seriously badass firefight during which you should have some backup on-hand.
Or, try what i encountered yesterday: jetpacks. One marine, with a HMG/jetpack and some maneuvering room, chopped down three of our fades before the LERK got him. It's HARD to hit someone whizzing around over your head with a rocket.
The most important thing to remember is this: it's rare to find a fade who's going flat-out berserker assault. Ambush? Sure. Blink right next to you and swipe? Sure. Hit-and-fade (no pun intended) from around a corner while standing next to a D tower? Sure. But the ones who go flat out into your group tend to not last quite as long. Get yourself decently upgraded (a prototype and a shotgun/HMG/GL is a good choice of gear), and don't LET the fade do what comes naturally, and you'll do alright. But if you let the fade attack how IT wants, you're giving it the advantage... and you're gonna die.
Last night, i had one of the most satisfying fade kills of my career. We'd had one harassing our spawn in the endgame for a while, just lobbing crap in and taking cover after being shot by the turrets some. I'm in the issue armor, with a shotgun... and the fade sticks his head around the corner YET AGAIN. I blasted at him a few times, the turrets blew off some ammo, and he ducked around the corner for what must have been the 20th time. At 12 health and not happy, i thumbed my last few shells into the scattergun, and said "heck with it." Walked out into the hallway, listened for the "gloop" of a healing fade, and opened up in the direction i thought it was coming from. Splatters of green blood came out of midair, and i sidestepped the rocket as the fade turned to run away... only to catch another couple of blasts of buckshot, and drop dead to the floor.
Fades aren't invincible... you're just not approaching 'em right. If the tactics don't work, change 'em... and you might be surprised.
I see marines win just as often as I see aliens win... WHICH IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. It seems all the people that whine about balance want the game to be UNBALANCED. "Marines should do more damage, move faster, have more resources... the aliens shouldn't have Onos, shouldn't be able to rush marines while they are weak, and they fade should be nerfed." It seems anything the aliens have that can kill a marine, or is better than something a marine has, should be nerfed, or removed. The game is even now. Deal with it.
i ve kiled on eclipse 3 skulks, 4 fades and 1 lerk before a gorge (yeah, youre readin right) had killed me cos i was hardly damaged and calling for almost 2 minutes for medic and being welded!!!
i cant say wheter 1.0 was better or more balanced, but i can say ns is the best game ever.
most important to me is a stable and efficient netcode and a good server capacity efficienty.
First: You can't get HA & HMG's & Rocket Packs before aliens get fades, which is the exact loadout you need to be able to take one down, because otherwise they just pop out, shoot you, make you waste your ammo, run back, regen, pop out and shoot you, rinse and repeat. You can be getting spammed with healthpacks but it still doesn't really matter. When you reload, you're a sitting duck. It takes what? 10 seconds?
On top of this, if both were to stand still, a fade would be almost equal with an HA+HMG marine, but let's look at the other advantages he has:
-his full energy bar comes back in about the same amount of time as the marine can reload his gun
-he can actually FIRE when doing this
-he is much more mobile
-he can regenerate, meaning that multiple fades can get health better than multiple marines because they can get theirs all at the same time and the marines need their commander to do it.
-he can get defense towers to heal him almost immediately
On top of this, you have the alien ability to build anything anywhere, with each thing costing less resources to build to boot.
You also have umbra, which when combined with fades makes them almost invincible unless the marines are all using grenade launchers, in which case they're vulnerable to the claws
yes yes yes you can have all these different marines with different guns, but can they still kill anything? At all? Can you EVER kill anything unless the enemy is stupid? Not really.
On top of all this, there's the Onos. Onos in 1v1 single combat will NEVER be bested by a marine. Where is the marine equivalent? Do you need to combine every single member of a marine team to be able to best an Onos? What happens when you get attacked by two? They could take out one working together, using HA+HMG+Jetpacks+Welders+God's blessing, but when they reload, they're toast anyhow.
but you NEED both. it takes 2 second of "accurate" HMG fire to take down a fade with level 3 carapace? accurate as in right next to him? the guns have a spread based on range. I can be PERFECTLY accurate, but if I'm not close enough, it wont matter. on the other hand, acid rocket is perfect accuracy, and splashes, so they can hit around corners. what if they have umbra? buy everyone grenade launchers?(after all, we have HA and HMG, we're rich) then what happens when they blink into melee while we have grenades? only do a couple grenade? I guess thats the solution then, have enough RS(that'll take at least a few RS bases, complete with turrets) to buy the whole team heavy armor and HMG/grenades, while defending the hive and keeping our guys alive. but its all pointless unless we can also expand and kill them. and do all this at least by the time they get a second hive.
Also, I swear I got like 5+ direct shotgun hits on fades numerous times, and they NEVER die. I have never EVER been able to kill a fade with shotgun, not even a wounded fade.
They did do some major fixes in each of the upgrades, trying to make gameplay more fair, and I think they're doing a good job (like how they removed the defensive chamber wall of doom's efficiency)
Oh, on a side note to all those people who think fades are impossible to kill. I usually average 1 fade for every 3 deaths during the final death throws of the marines (that would mean using just 50 lmg rounds, and 10-20 pistol rounds, depending on how smart the fade is). The problem you guys have is the lack to innovate your strategies. I can't always get fades, but I do keep at least one or two out of the base and on me to keep the comm focused on trying to save our **obscenity**
- lately in the games i've been playing, the aliens seem to kick the marines **obscenity**, unless they are really new to the game and don't know how to upgrade/get all the hives, etc.
- even with a good commander, a marine team needs excellent communication and teamwork, which is really hard since this game still has a lot of new players that like to go out on their own because they think its counter-strike and they can awp an onos or whatever. but aside from that here are some other factors that kinda put the marines at a disadvantage:
(tons of repeats from the posts above ^^ + i'll try to keep it brief)
1. resources seem easier for aliens to get/keep. marines have to build a factory + a bunch of <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> that can become useless if the factory is destroyed and need constant upkeep (welding) when they get damaged. this means they have to be constantly under check. aliens on the other hand can build a resource, put up some defense and offense towers, web it up and let it be. less resources to keep it and they can forget about it because it can heal itself.
2. fades. bah. they do seem really tough to kill even with a hmg + ha. + they are semi quick and can easily get their health back from a pile of defense towers (if aliens are smart they will build out of a <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->'s range). the hit and run tactic works and it works well. (unfortunately for the marines)
3. the whole defense tower vs health packs. ouch. either something needs to be done to the command console (ie. blips on the big layout of peeps asking for health) or the marines could really use a health station. speed is of the essence in this game and the console sometimes feels sluggish <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I could be wrong about all this as the game progesses and people (including me) get better at it, but it kinda comes down to numbers.
- if the marines take 1 hive while the aliens have 2, any semi skilled alien team can just take 2-3 fades to hit and run the last hive while the other aliens attack resources stations/bases of the marines. For the marines to defend the hive, they need constant check by the commander (taking him away from other duties) + 2-3 marines per fade with hmg/ha's to hold the hive down. eventual outcome - marines must abandon the hive to protect their base.. yadda yadda yadda.. aliens win.
again I am probably totally wrong with my logic but that's just what i've been seeing lately.
1) Turret/Turret factory behavior (i.e., turrets didn't require a factory to operate) in 1.0 was not a bug, it was intentional.
2) All the balance changes in 1.01 were as a result of Flayra's spectating several highly organized clan games. He found that a well organized marine team would bulldoze an equally well-organized alien team, pretty much every time. So the aliens primary answer to the HMG/HA marine - the Fade - was increased in power to balance, and some marine abilities (GL, Sieges, and Sentries) were weakened slightly.
I've been playing pretty balanced clan games on 1.01/1.02, and I think once all abilities are working properly, this is gonna be pretty close to perfect.
So in that case, would you please tell me how to win? I honestly just want to know the trick to having the RS to counter fades, and keep the 3rd hive.
Maybe if your able to capture both hives...or keep them off balance by going after one, then they other, never letting them really establish a 2nd hive. They spend all their efforts trying to get a second hive. meanwhile, hopefully, you have enough soldiers left over to capture RS nodes. Really marines can kick alien butt if they are stuck as skulks, just takes a watchfull eye. Maybe by the time they get that second hive, we have a lot of RS?
thoughts?
So in that case, would you please tell me how to win? I honestly just want to know the trick to having the RS to counter fades, and keep the 3rd hive.
Maybe if your able to capture both hives...or keep them off balance by going after one, then they other, never letting them really establish a 2nd hive. They spend all their efforts trying to get a second hive. meanwhile, hopefully, you have enough soldiers left over to capture RS nodes. Really marines can kick alien butt if they are stuck as skulks, just takes a watchfull eye. Maybe by the time they get that second hive, we have a lot of RS?
thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You might want to try Frontiersman Strategies for tips on how to win as the TSA
-his full energy bar comes back in about the same amount of time as the marine can reload his gun
-he can actually FIRE when doing this
-he is much more mobile
-he can regenerate, meaning that multiple fades can get health better than multiple marines because they can get theirs all at the same time and the marines need their commander to do it.
-he can get defense towers to heal him almost immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such a bunch of bunk it's unbelievable. Play a fade sir, so you realize how fast a HMG kills you. Fades are only deadly when they have the element of suprise and an easy escape route.
Maybe if your able to capture both hives...or keep them off balance by going after one, then they other, never letting them really establish a 2nd hive. They spend all their efforts trying to get a second hive. meanwhile, hopefully, you have enough soldiers left over to capture RS nodes. Really marines can kick alien butt if they are stuck as skulks, just takes a watchfull eye. Maybe by the time they get that second hive, we have a lot of RS?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chron, the trick is to de-emphasize turret farms and get your tech up quick. Defend your bases with a network of phase gates. This, of course, requires a responsive and motivated marine team but they don't really need to be good shots.
You're never going to win every game. It's just not possible. Sometimes you will win despite your team and sometimes you'll win because of them, but as long as you aren't wasting time you have a good chance at it.
-his full energy bar comes back in about the same amount of time as the marine can reload his gun
-he can actually FIRE when doing this
-he is much more mobile
-he can regenerate, meaning that multiple fades can get health better than multiple marines because they can get theirs all at the same time and the marines need their commander to do it.
-he can get defense towers to heal him almost immediately<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such a bunch of bunk it's unbelievable. Play a fade sir, so you realize how fast a HMG kills you. Fades are only deadly when they have the element of suprise and an easy escape route.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play a fade. fades ALWAYS have an easy escape route. otherwise your playing stupid. fades are playing with perfectly accurate "burst" rockets. while marines have inaccurate guns that deal little damage unless they hit in very large amounts. fade is by FAR better at long range.
To reiterate this point:
Marines: respawn delay+necessary resources+2 seconds for commander to drop HA and/or HMG
Aliens: respawn delay+necessary resources+time to evolve+time to upgrade+extreme vulnerability while evolving/upgrading
Secondly, what the **obscenity** do you EXPECT acid rockets to do? 20 damage each? I don't think so. Rarely do i ever kill an HA marine with acid rockets as it is, leaving me to try and shred him, thus increasing MY risk of dying greatly. Even if the HAs have LMGs, i have plenty of reasons not to attack them head on. Acid rockets are for stock marines and games of "keep away" with HAs. Believe me, fades have just as many reasons to not rush HA marines head on as HA marines have to not rush AR-spewing fades head on.
YES, aliens don't need to stick together as much as marines do. We don't have a commander. Yes, aliens have defense towers that heal us. Marines have lame Siege Turrets that fire through 20 feet of solid steel and do spash damage to anything near the structure it hits. What the hell more do marines want? Bug spray?
Thats how to win. Be aggressive, dont build too much (i dont say nothing) defense.
(That was my first lesson in Warcraft.. dont spend your Money on Towers or someting like that. Build Troops and attack)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This, of course, requires a responsive and motivated marine team but they don't really need to be good shots
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To have this really effective the commander should "shortcut choose" a marine / group of marines.
I dont play often as a commander (and I dont think Im very good at it, but sometimes I have to), and my worst problem is to find all my Marines, get them marked, get back to the Position where the attack is and send them there
I take the initiative to take my 95% absorbing armor to walk straight into the acid rockets and unload either a HMG or shotgun into them. Either way, the fade goes down FAST every time.
Calmly walk back to base for some welding and some medpacks, and youre on your way.
Or if you got a welder with you and the CMDR drops a healthpack on you, just advance a little farther and take out the OC's.
How was it put in that game last night?
"Shotgun only takes a few shots to kick a fade in the nuts"
HA + shotgun is fun. People assume that you're slow, and thus immobile, so they come in for melee. Bad for them if you got a shotty <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for how to deal with an Onos? It's really pretty simple. If it's one on one, and you have a Jetpack as the marine, it's just a matter of time until you kill the Onos. If one the other hand, you think that HA is the be all and end all of a marines equipment... you will die every time. Checks and balances folks. Don't get so set on one strategy that you miss another that would perfectly compliment a given situation.
HMG/Jets, however, does. Remember - this game isn't about twitching. It is about forces and strategy.
i ve kiled on eclipse 3 skulks, 4 fades and 1 lerk before a gorge (yeah, youre readin right) had killed me cos i was hardly damaged and calling for almost 2 minutes for medic and being welded!!!
i cant say wheter 1.0 was better or more balanced, but i can say ns is the best game ever.
most important to me is a stable and efficient netcode and a good server capacity efficienty.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be honest, those had to be some pretty awful fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you cant say that, ... some were really good and i had my troubles with them, ... thats because i had pnly 10 or 20 hp and no armor then!
but shotgun and jumpjets ARE best, ... you can get fast close to them, shot, and get fast away
Thats what we get for bitching so soon. I think you unbalanced it just to teach the community a lesson. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, thanks for at least acknowledging that it was balanced, as it was before 1.01. However, adding more to the fade is in no way unbalancing it much at all. The game itself right now is just as balanced as it was before. For all of you who just sit there and complain and complain, stop playing, your only ruining the fun for everyone. The whole reason you think its unbalanced is because your not playing with the right teams. If you really want to play NS and have the best experience, play clan play. I can't stress this enough. However, can we please stop complaining, the game is balanced finely, ive own hundreds of marine and alien wins, equally.