Drifter rush

Scrajm

<div class="IPBDescription">UWE fix it</div>I just wanted to show you one of the strategies that needs UWEs attention. Its a drifter rush, where the idea is that you just spend you initialt res on drifters and then just rush the marine base.

Its completely unstoppable. If someone wants to prove me wrong, play a PCW against us and I will show you. If it isnt fixed soon, we might get into the situation that it starts beeing abused in live streamed games.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4</a>

Skuggan

<!--quoteo(post=1987245:date=Oct 5 2012, 10:10 AM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Oct 5 2012, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just wanted to show you one of the strategies that needs UWEs attention. Its a drifter rush, where the idea is that you just spend you initialt res on drifters and then just rush the marine base.

Its completely unstoppable. If someone wants to prove me wrong, play a PCW against us and I will show you. If it isnt fixed soon, we might get into the situation that it starts beeing abused in live streamed games.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

HBZ even knew that this rush was coming and it also failed a bit due to the drifters getting stuck. So it can only get more powerful than this.

This is horrible for so many reasons. Some of them are:

It lags the game.
Marines get stuck.
Players fighting AI.

Squirreli_

The problem here is not so much drifter rush than early base rushes in general. IIRC, we've had success against some early drifter rushes by concentrating initially on the aliens and not the drifters, which are mostly decoys. Placing mines (to damage multiple drifters at once) helps, multiple IP:s help, beacons help to some extent. Mostly though, what helps marines most against drifter rushes is the terrible state of drifter waypointing right now... As seen on the video, the drifters get stuck on things and when a single drifter is stuck on something, the whole selected group stays put. The khammander then has to micro small groups and individual drifters along and just leave some drifters stuck along the attack path.

tl;dr: base rushes in general are a bigger problem than drifter rushes. drifter rushes are just a bit more efficient all-in version of early base rushes.

dePARA

Marines can do nothing against this in early game @ closespawns and im sure this work cross-spawn too.
Only counter are grenades or flamer wich you dont have @ early game.

This is cause:

- Gorges and skulks can"hide" behind or between the drifters
- The drifters stuck the marines
- 3 skulks with nonstop enzyme can take down a ip/cc in seconds
- And we have massive lag atm wich didnt help the marines also :)

We discussed a solution after the game. Maybe random placed mines could help but you need a skulk to trigger it in the right moment.
In the end:
UNSTOPPABLE

rantology

Even using a single drifter can be kinda stupid. With the physics/collision the drifter runs into the marine and actually forces you up into the air or roots you in place constantly. They are equally as useful in tanking and obstructing marines as they are in their intended purpose of scouting, and we all know how fun it is to lose to an AI unit.

Drifters:

-Need a lot less HP (they are invisible to begin with, what more do they need?)
-Do not need an Attack command/ ability of any kind

Morshu

Yeah how does the drifters even do damage anyway? they don't have teeth/other good reason being able to harm marines/structures so I guess they have an attack similar to the one in this clip...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btdGrAhu-6Y" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btdGrAhu-6Y</a>

/sarcastic%fat%****%mode%disabled*

Yeah they should nerf the HP on the drifters to make them 'less viable' for such 'cheesy' attacks, after all their main role is to monitor the marines in the corridors and if the drifter(s) is in the middle of a big fight, drop a cloud of enzyme to put them aliens into a frenzy unlike any other.

KaptajnKLO

Who would do a drifter rush as a serious strategy? You'd have to be a massive ######bag to do that in a live game.

Dghelneshi

<!--quoteo(post=1987261:date=Oct 5 2012, 10:57 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 5 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who would do a drifter rush as a serious strategy? You'd have to be a massive ######bag to do that in a live game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You do realize there will be the first tournament for prize money in a week?

Squirreli_

<!--quoteo(post=1987254:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:31 AM:name=dePARA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dePARA @ Oct 5 2012, 11:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987254"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- 3 skulks with nonstop enzyme can take down a ip/cc in seconds<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

We did some experiments in last patch, and it would seem, that a single un-enzymed skulk will eat a CC in 36-40 seconds IIRC. Enzyme cuts 20-25% from that, so lets say 30-34 seconds for a skulk with enzyme. 3 skulks without enzyme means 12-13 seconds, 3 skulks with enzyme ~10 seconds. If someone has more accurate readings, I would be really interested.

KaptajnKLO

Nope, how much are we talking about?

Squirreli_

<!--quoteo(post=1987261:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:57 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 5 2012, 11:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who would do a drifter rush as a serious strategy? You'd have to be a massive ######bag to do that in a live game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's the game's job to provide a level playing ground. Loopholes should be fixed and not marked "Please be gentlemanly and refrain from overtly using this."


EDIT: Much of the annoyance with drifters comes from the flawed collision model, where players keep bouncing and surfing on top of each other. That should be fixed. Also, I really don't see why drifters would need to even have an attack. The mechanic is just not worth the problems it creates, ie. hurting server and client performance severely for a gimmick rush tactic. A few patches ago drifter HP went from 100 to 300. A bit over the top, really. Un-upgraded rifle does 500 damage per magazine, so just to kill measly 5 drifters from a drifter rush it takes 3 full magazines.

KuddlyKalli

<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, drifters need a lot less health and neither they nor MACs should have an attack in the first place. Turrets are fine, but this is a PVP game. AI units should not be able to surround/block/kill players like this.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

Dghelneshi

<!--quoteo(post=1987264:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:02 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 5 2012, 11:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987264"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We did some experiments in last patch, and it would seem, that a single un-enzymed skulk will eat a CC in 36-40 seconds IIRC. Enzyme cuts 20-25% from that, so lets say 30-34 seconds for a skulk with enzyme. 3 skulks without enzyme means 12-13 seconds, 3 skulks with enzyme ~10 seconds. If someone has more accurate readings, I would be really interested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A CC has 6000 effective health vs normal damage. A skulk bite does 75 damage every 0.45sec (afaik). 6000/75 = 80 bites. 80*0.45 = 36sec to kill CC. Enzyme modifies attackspeed by 25%, so 80*0.45/1.25 = 28.8sec to kill CC. Divided by 3 Skulks that's 9.6sec.

For an IP that's: 15 seconds for a single Skulk without Enzyme. 12sec with Enzyme. 5sec respectively 4sec with 3 Skulks.
Obs: ~10sec | ~8sec | 3.4sec | 2.7sec
Power node: 24sec | ~19sec | 8sec | 6.4sec

So, with 3 Skulks a commander has a reaction window of about half a second once they are on the Obs to beacon. With lag that is probably around a quarter of a second.

KaptajnKLO

<!--quoteo(post=1987266:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:04 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Oct 5 2012, 11:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the game's job to provide a level playing ground. Loopholes should be fixed and not marked "Please be gentlemanly and refrain from overtly using this."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Lol it's not overtly using drifters it's plain abusing something they aren't meant to be doing. And yes if you do that then you are a sad selfish dbag and an a$$hole to not only the tournament organisers but also to the viewers and the other teams.

Dghelneshi

<!--quoteo(post=1987272:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:15 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 5 2012, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol it's not overtly using drifters it's plain abusing something they aren't meant to be doing. And yes if you do that then you are a sad selfish dbag and an a$$hole to not only the tournament organisers but also to the viewers and the other teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bad news for you: Humans are sad selfish ######bags and ######.

KaptajnKLO

<!--quoteo(post=1987273:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:21 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Oct 5 2012, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987273"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bad news for you: Humans are sad selfish ######bags and ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No some humans are. I'd wager that most teams wouldn't do drifter rushes in a live tournament.

Dghelneshi

<!--quoteo(post=1987275:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:23 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 5 2012, 11:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987275"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No some humans are. I'd wager that most teams wouldn't do drifter rushes in a live tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but the problem is that one team WILL do it. In competitive gaming, you play to win. Especially if it involves money.

This could also easily be used to grief public servers.

KaptajnKLO

<!--quoteo(post=1987276:date=Oct 5 2012, 11:24 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Oct 5 2012, 11:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, but the problem is that one team WILL do it. In competitive gaming, you play to win. Especially if it involves money.

This could also easily be used to grief public servers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


We will see. But this could be solved pretty easily if the tournament organisers simply banned the use of drifter rushes until UWE fixes it and if one teams does this they're going to be disqualified. Nobody other than the dbag teams that actually does the drifter rush is interested in seeing it.

Mr.Greedy

Drifter limit to 5 per hive. End.

Mouse

Personally (and this is probably because I'm a big fan of shmups & Serious Sam), I like the idea of mass drifter rushes - but not as OP as they are now. In my mind, you should be able to take a drifter out in a couple of pistol shots and they shouldn't collide with players.

Then, a drifter rush would be a distraction. The sort of thing you aim at one tech point to give your team the time to take down another.

Though.. that does nothing about the lag..

Laosh'Ra

a drifter limit sounds good if you put it high enough, being able to spam combat-viable AI units is not what UWE is aiming for afaik. i also think drifter health should still be lowered, they could gain minor regeneration to make up for it. this might be more intuitive anyway, considering they are moving life forms.
as for the tournament, i guess there should be clear rules to prevent exploitations.

Mestaritonttu

WHOAH NERFBAT! Lets nerf drifter attack, range, speed healthspawncapenzyme......

Gods, people! The drifter just has a bit too much health right now. Was fine with less health. Except for the lag, but that was +30 drifters and above.

Just nerf the hp a little. Sheesh.

Jekt

Pretty sure elodea pioneered this expert strategy some 12 months ago.

Drifter hp buff was senseless. No hard cap on drifters so they lag the game. Drifter collision with marines is hilarious, drifters and marines alike play a game of jenga for everyone to see.

3DKnight

this would not be a serious strat. This is exploiting buggy collision and forcing framrate drops.

It should be considered a bug and fixed. Yeah drifters should not be able to attack with their crazy low cost and instant availability


anyway, Against a good alien team, always always research mines first. then MINE your base.

Squirreli_

<!--quoteo(post=1987357:date=Oct 5 2012, 03:12 PM:name=3DKnight)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3DKnight @ Oct 5 2012, 03:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->anyway, Against a good alien team, always always research mines first. then MINE your base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ummmmm. No. Mines are an insurance that comes at the cost of other upgrades. In early games, going for mines means you are not getting any quick pressure phase gates up, which in turn can mean that you give aliens unnecessary map control. This can lead to much slower early game, as pressure phase gates allow you to attack alien RTs and 2nd hive locations easier. Since resources are scarce at the start, the quickest way to get PG + mines is to get an observatory right away and then start researching phase tech (which takes long), then save for armoury and get mines when it and res are available. So no, mines are not an automatic "must have immediately", just a very useful insurance plan.

3DKnight

I can get phase running and mines at the same time, 3 res towers, portal, obs, phase research, armory, mine research , then two phase gates

mines are always useful until fades come out. More useful than shotguns early game, as you can easily loose shotguns and waste 20 res without armour upgrades. Mines protect against a grouped base attack, they protect phase gates when you place them, and protect power nodes in your res tower areas.

i usually scream at marines to use 15 res each and place mines, not too close together as i only take 1 to kill a un cara skulk.

Then Welders and Level 1 guns/armor before shotties IMO.

elodea

<!--quoteo(post=1987245:date=Oct 5 2012, 06:10 PM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Oct 5 2012, 06:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987245"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just wanted to show you one of the strategies that needs UWEs attention. Its a drifter rush, where the idea is that you just spend you initialt res on drifters and then just rush the marine base.

Its completely unstoppable. If someone wants to prove me wrong, play a PCW against us and I will show you. If it isnt fixed soon, we might get into the situation that it starts beeing abused in live streamed games.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVswiMTLKh4</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for just over a month since b217, i've been repeatedly trying to tell UWE to lower the godahm drifter hp to no avail. Unfortunately i don't think anything will come of this.

I say just have a gentleman's agreement not to drifter rush in pcw's and exploit your share of fun in pubs. Hopefully we can all make enough people whine about OP and come to the forums asking UWE to lower dat hp.

Oh and in regard to hardcaps, i dont think they're necessary. If you lower drifter hp enough, you make mass drifters cost ineffective. The lag probably is a result of poor optimisation (the lack of work to AI units/pathing etc. is obvious).

RobustPenguin

Sure, but can we have some viable form of AI base attack as aliens then? Marines have so many ways to kill bases later on (including ARCs) and aliens are really tied down to bile bomb the power and hope someone doesnt come for the paper thin gorge. Drifters give the khamm something to do that can actually influence the battle. Whilst I admit its kinda dumb early game if it doesnt work all your res is wasted. Its an all in strategy, isnt the point that theres a decent chance of it working?

{GGs} Chicken

<!--quoteo(post=1987272:date=Oct 5 2012, 02:15 AM:name=KaptajnKLO)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KaptajnKLO @ Oct 5 2012, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol it's not overtly using drifters it's plain abusing something they aren't meant to be doing. And yes if you do that then you are a sad selfish dbag and an a$$hole to not only the tournament organisers but also to the viewers and the other teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's NS2 as a whole right there. Abusing bad mechanics to win.

Runteh

I actually really like the idea of drifter swarms as a valid strategy, perhaps even as a 'buy' for the commander rather than just a solo drifter, perhaps by using an egg.

But at the moment it causes a lot of lag and there are issues with it.

Not sure why there is so much lag when L4D2 has about 1000 things going on at once on screen and doesn't tend to blink and eyelid. But I am not a programmer, i'll just take a back seat.

It is a shame about the optimisation of NPCs currently though.

Schleppy

<!--quoteo(post=1987262:date=Oct 5 2012, 04:58 AM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Oct 5 2012, 04:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987262"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You do realize there will be the first tournament for prize money in a week?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What's the prize money? $100.00 split 5 or 6 ways? Weeeeeee! Serious business, right?