<!--quoteo(post=1970261:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:10 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Sep 2 2012, 07:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyone still remaining, please abandon the thread. OP is obviously more interested in complaining that the game isn't the way "he" wants it than in any sort of rational discussion. Those who remain, please ensure the ownership of at least one (1) stick to beat said dead horse with.
Thank you, and have a pleasant day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright you can leave bye, those of you who don't try to better a beta can go with you.
<!--quoteo(post=1970263:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:13 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Sep 2 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i dont think bilebomb is the problem and i dont think removing bilebomb is the solution. But you are right, nothing has been fixed, they tried to solve suicide gorge and yet here we are back at square 1.
The gorge isnt worth more than 10 res in its current form 10 res gorge allows for suicide gorge over and over again
increasing the cost of the gorge will solve the suicide issue (gorges will still suicide just alot less) adding a new structure/ability to the gorge inventory will increase its usefulness and justify a higher cost<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a solution can be found that solves the problem then I am all for it. However I don't want just suicide gorge fixed, I want the gorge itself fixed. At least we agree on that part. The gorge's hydras are pitiful, and clogs are just a minor annoyance. It needs to be able to hold an area, maybe not as well as a dedicated commander, but well enough to delay marines or set a forward support position for other aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1970271:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:37 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 2 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is another thread where the issue of marines pushing into a hive and quickly killing it is discussed....which is more of an actual issue as marines spawn FOR FREE WITH ALL UPGRADES so these suicide rushes dont even cost them 10 RES..heck they are FREE.
In that thread we are not saying ban the tactic....but actually seeing if there is a way to address some of the cause (hydras being useless and lack of MC chamber properties)
You obviously didn't play much NS1...either that or gorge rushes where just an aussie thing (which I doubt) but gorge rushes where often used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge rushes were useful, but like I said it was done in a large group. I am talking about one player gorge rushing and suiciding. That is much different then the NS1 Gorge rushes. If you read the thread I have not been here simply saying "ban them end of issue", I am saying that suicide gorges are the symptom of a greater issue, and need to be stopped. I completely agree that Gorge, in it's current state, without BB would be completely useless. That's why I have been saying to buff it's building abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1970220:date=Sep 2 2012, 06:17 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 06:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact is the beta testing is not over, and the gorge is a pretty bad class right now. I could make the very same argument that jetpacks must be balanced since we are this far into testing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Throwing away 2 years of testing bilebomb because you weren't here for it doesn't make any sense. Bilebomb has been on a long journey through the beta and it's where it is because that's where everyone agreed it needs to go. These suicide rushes everyone is complaining about happen because of a complete lack of marine defense. Also the Gorge is bad, despite having bilebomb. He needs more utility aside from healing and bilebombing and IMO hydras costing res was a step backwards in that regard.
<!--quoteo(post=1970298:date=Sep 2 2012, 10:49 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Sep 2 2012, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Throwing away 2 years of testing bilebomb because you weren't here for it doesn't make any sense. Bilebomb has been on a long journey through the beta and it's where it is because that's where everyone agreed it needs to go. These suicide rushes everyone is complaining about happen because of a complete lack of marine defense. Also the Gorge is bad, despite having bilebomb. He needs more utility aside from healing and bilebombing and IMO hydras costing res was a step backwards in that regard.
This thread is not about jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Plus with the Beta going retail soon I doubt they'll take the risk of switching it to another class again. I wouldn't mind a nerf of the Bile and a buff in building if Marines weren't able to run through the Gorges/Aliens defenses so easily or stay out of range of the Hydras/Whips and outrun sliding Gorges.
<!--quoteo(post=1970238:date=Sep 2 2012, 05:07 PM:name=Ejquinn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ejquinn @ Sep 2 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970238"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like I said, that same excuse could be used against it. The Bile bomb was on Gorge, then moved to Lerk, they did it because Gorge suicide runs were a problem. They knew it was a problem, and they switched it back. Hell you can take it off Gorge and give Fade acid rocket for all I care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wasn't gorge suicides, it was the fact that bile did 300? damage with a 7 METER radius. Alone or not, 2 gorges would demolish the whole base in a couple seconds. They even nerfed it a few times but it was still way too powerful. The funny thing is that it was still largely unused, despite being uber OP, and marines would still turtle for hours back then, simply because most players either did not know of bile's existence or because they had no idea how powerful it was.
<!--quoteo(post=1970311:date=Sep 3 2012, 02:21 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 3 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't gorge suicides, it was the fact that bile did 300? damage with a 7 METER radius. Alone or not, 2 gorges would demolish the whole base in a couple seconds. They even nerfed it a few times but it was still way too powerful. The funny thing is that it was still largely unused, despite being uber OP, and marines would still turtle for hours back then, simply because most players either did not know of bile's existence or because they had no idea how powerful it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah the radius was a billion meters. and it stacked. oh god it stacked. cause it didn't have a dot.
<!--quoteo(post=1970298:date=Sep 2 2012, 10:49 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Sep 2 2012, 10:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Throwing away 2 years of testing bilebomb because you weren't here for it doesn't make any sense. Bilebomb has been on a long journey through the beta and it's where it is because that's where everyone agreed it needs to go. These suicide rushes everyone is complaining about happen because of a complete lack of marine defense. Also the Gorge is bad, despite having bilebomb. He needs more utility aside from healing and bilebombing and IMO hydras costing res was a step backwards in that regard.
This thread is not about jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was here <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, try reading the thread, or at least the first page. It's not trowing away 2 years of testing, it's learnign what is working and what is not. Obviously suicide Gorges is not working, so you fix it.
<!--quoteo(post=1970311:date=Sep 3 2012, 12:21 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 3 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't gorge suicides, it was the fact that bile did 300? damage with a 7 METER radius. Alone or not, 2 gorges would demolish the whole base in a couple seconds. They even nerfed it a few times but it was still way too powerful. The funny thing is that it was still largely unused, despite being uber OP, and marines would still turtle for hours back then, simply because most players either did not know of bile's existence or because they had no idea how powerful it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Originally it was gorges with such range they would either shoot bile bombs from outside of rooms and take down bases, or go skulk, run up to some tiny spot on the other side, gorge, and destroy the base. When they fixed that it forced gorges to do suicide runs. Yes the damage and radius was asinine, but the problem is still not fixed.
Keep in mind that gorges are the only artillery aliens have. Marines are alot better at fortifying locations than aliens and they have artillery (arcs) that don't even require a player to dedicate himself to be. Aliens need artillery so I'm wondering how you're going to balance that out without wrecking 10 other things, just because you figure that gorges suicide themselves in certain circumstances. I see jp marines doing just the same to hunt for upgrades or knife a hive and thats alright then? I say its part of the game, live with it.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The problem as I see it is that bilebomb has been shoehorned into too many roles. Its a high anti-structure attack, designed to help break marine turtles, but also to clear out spam (think ARCs, sentries, and MACs). Its also an armor damaging attacking, useful for clearing exos and softening up marines. IMO, these offensive roles for bilebomb fit the lerk better than the gorge, but since that's essentially been vetoed by the community, I'd rather see changes to bilebomb.
For example, why not restrict bilebomb to damage only against armor and AI (e.g. MACs/ARCs) and then buff another classes attack against structures. Personally, I'd love to see the onos primary attack do higher damage against structures again or even to give stomp some area-of-effect structure damage so that it can be used to clear out marines turtles/sentry spam.
I dont see it as a problem though. Since bile has to be researched and by the time it has, marines should have ways of dealing with them. namely shotguns, armour/weapon levels, or turrets to hold them off till a marine gets there or even jetpacks. Also depending on the alien tech path and the marine tech path they could have exos by the time bile bomb is out. Not saying this is always the case though. But considering a gorge rush can hurt a base and the marines can have it fully repaired before another rush and the fact that an EXO rush can kill a whole alien base and move to the next base losing few if any exos, I think aliens need Bilebomb as it is one of the most effective ways at keeping EXOs at bay at the moment.
Edit: To what ScardyBob said, I agree with some of what he has to say. Bilebomb has somehow took many roles, more then it was intended and it needs to be limited on its uses. Also I agree on what he has to say about the onos
I failed to see any game that was won by suicide gorges. Neither competitive nor on pubs. When gorges hitting the base, the marines had already lost. How many games have you seen ending this way? Srsly, don't count the ones, where the marines were already losing.
I've seen it change several games. Usually when the big marine push is coming, and 2-3 skulks sneak off, go gorge, and waste the primary marine base's power. Of course, you could always set up a backup power node on your Observatory, but most people aren't quite that well prepared.
One of the cripping things with bilebomb is it's sheer radius. I don't think it needs a strong nerf to damage or otherwise, but lowering the blast radius a bit might at least increase the amount of time before a base turns into a bunch of pitted metal.
this is an old problem, if it wasnt an issue then the devs would have never moved bilebomb from the 10 res gorge to the 30 res lerk. 25 res gorge seemed to have solved the issue for a while, but with the gorge costing 10 res again, its back
bile bomb is only OP because the hitreg in NS2 is so awful right now. It takes at least 3 magazines to kill a gorge who is not even healing himself, when it should take 1. They can just run through the whole base while getting shot and can outheal a few marines even if there's a lot of gorges. Even when hitreg is fixed, I think gorge health is a little too high.
<!--quoteo(post=1970950:date=Sep 4 2012, 07:06 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Sep 4 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->bile bomb is only OP because the hitreg in NS2 is so awful right now. It takes at least 3 magazines to kill a gorge who is not even healing himself, when it should take 1. They can just run through the whole base while getting shot and can outheal a few marines even if there's a lot of gorges. Even when hitreg is fixed, I think gorge health is a little too high.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, hitreg might need some fixing.
Assuming the marines have some weapon upgrades by the time gorges have bilebomb, it usually just takes a full clip to kill a gorge. Using the pistol as a finishing move is usually enough to compensate for having missed some rifle bullets.
With carapace, gorges take alot more bullets, but it also makes them slower and easier to hit.
<!--quoteo(post=1969802:date=Sep 1 2012, 04:23 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 1 2012, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1969802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems like you have recently joined the beta. I say this because bile bomb has been scrutinised quite intensely throughout the development of this game. The final verdict after many iterations and approaches? Gorges need bilebomb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
<!--quoteo(post=1970744:date=Sep 3 2012, 10:11 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 3 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd love to see the onos primary attack do higher damage against structures again or even to give stomp some area-of-effect structure damage so that it can be used to clear out marines turtles/sentry spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've had both of these implementations tried already. 2 onos on any marine defended power node = no power.
This might play different with exo's in play, but since exo's are way slower than onos, onos would still be able to snipe marine power nodes faster than marines can defend. Still makes it to easy for aliens to pick of marine expansions and force them into a single base.
Comments
Thank you, and have a pleasant day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
alright you can leave bye, those of you who don't try to better a beta can go with you.
<!--quoteo(post=1970263:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:13 PM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Sep 2 2012, 07:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970263"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i dont think bilebomb is the problem and i dont think removing bilebomb is the solution. But you are right, nothing has been fixed, they tried to solve suicide gorge and yet here we are back at square 1.
The gorge isnt worth more than 10 res in its current form
10 res gorge allows for suicide gorge over and over again
increasing the cost of the gorge will solve the suicide issue (gorges will still suicide just alot less)
adding a new structure/ability to the gorge inventory will increase its usefulness and justify a higher cost<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a solution can be found that solves the problem then I am all for it. However I don't want just suicide gorge fixed, I want the gorge itself fixed. At least we agree on that part. The gorge's hydras are pitiful, and clogs are just a minor annoyance. It needs to be able to hold an area, maybe not as well as a dedicated commander, but well enough to delay marines or set a forward support position for other aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1970271:date=Sep 2 2012, 07:37 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Sep 2 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970271"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is another thread where the issue of marines pushing into a hive and quickly killing it is discussed....which is more of an actual issue as marines spawn FOR FREE WITH ALL UPGRADES so these suicide rushes dont even cost them 10 RES..heck they are FREE.
In that thread we are not saying ban the tactic....but actually seeing if there is a way to address some of the cause (hydras being useless and lack of MC chamber properties)
You obviously didn't play much NS1...either that or gorge rushes where just an aussie thing (which I doubt) but gorge rushes where often used.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gorge rushes were useful, but like I said it was done in a large group. I am talking about one player gorge rushing and suiciding. That is much different then the NS1 Gorge rushes. If you read the thread I have not been here simply saying "ban them end of issue", I am saying that suicide gorges are the symptom of a greater issue, and need to be stopped. I completely agree that Gorge, in it's current state, without BB would be completely useless. That's why I have been saying to buff it's building abilities.
congrats, youve confused suicide gorge with gorge rush
read through the thread and set your reading comprehension to high
read the thread bro, were not talking about that.
Throwing away 2 years of testing bilebomb because you weren't here for it doesn't make any sense. Bilebomb has been on a long journey through the beta and it's where it is because that's where everyone agreed it needs to go. These suicide rushes everyone is complaining about happen because of a complete lack of marine defense. Also the Gorge is bad, despite having bilebomb. He needs more utility aside from healing and bilebombing and IMO hydras costing res was a step backwards in that regard.
This thread is not about jetpacks.
This thread is not about jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Plus with the Beta going retail soon I doubt they'll take the risk of switching it to another class again. I wouldn't mind a nerf of the Bile and a buff in building if Marines weren't able to run through the Gorges/Aliens defenses so easily or stay out of range of the Hydras/Whips and outrun sliding Gorges.
It wasn't gorge suicides, it was the fact that bile did 300? damage with a 7 METER radius. Alone or not, 2 gorges would demolish the whole base in a couple seconds. They even nerfed it a few times but it was still way too powerful. The funny thing is that it was still largely unused, despite being uber OP, and marines would still turtle for hours back then, simply because most players either did not know of bile's existence or because they had no idea how powerful it was.
yeah the radius was a billion meters. and it stacked. oh god it stacked. cause it didn't have a dot.
This thread is not about jetpacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was here <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*SNIP*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->, try reading the thread, or at least the first page. It's not trowing away 2 years of testing, it's learnign what is working and what is not. Obviously suicide Gorges is not working, so you fix it.
<!--quoteo(post=1970311:date=Sep 3 2012, 12:21 AM:name={GGs} Chicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ({GGs} Chicken @ Sep 3 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wasn't gorge suicides, it was the fact that bile did 300? damage with a 7 METER radius. Alone or not, 2 gorges would demolish the whole base in a couple seconds. They even nerfed it a few times but it was still way too powerful. The funny thing is that it was still largely unused, despite being uber OP, and marines would still turtle for hours back then, simply because most players either did not know of bile's existence or because they had no idea how powerful it was.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Originally it was gorges with such range they would either shoot bile bombs from outside of rooms and take down bases, or go skulk, run up to some tiny spot on the other side, gorge, and destroy the base. When they fixed that it forced gorges to do suicide runs. Yes the damage and radius was asinine, but the problem is still not fixed.
For example, why not restrict bilebomb to damage only against armor and AI (e.g. MACs/ARCs) and then buff another classes attack against structures. Personally, I'd love to see the onos primary attack do higher damage against structures again or even to give stomp some area-of-effect structure damage so that it can be used to clear out marines turtles/sentry spam.
Edit:
To what ScardyBob said, I agree with some of what he has to say. Bilebomb has somehow took many roles, more then it was intended and it needs to be limited on its uses. Also I agree on what he has to say about the onos
I just can't see a problem here.
One of the cripping things with bilebomb is it's sheer radius. I don't think it needs a strong nerf to damage or otherwise, but lowering the blast radius a bit might at least increase the amount of time before a base turns into a bunch of pitted metal.
Yeah, hitreg might need some fixing.
Assuming the marines have some weapon upgrades by the time gorges have bilebomb, it usually just takes a full clip to kill a gorge. Using the pistol as a finishing move is usually enough to compensate for having missed some rifle bullets.
With carapace, gorges take alot more bullets, but it also makes them slower and easier to hit.
+1
<!--quoteo(post=1970744:date=Sep 3 2012, 10:11 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Sep 3 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1970744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd love to see the onos primary attack do higher damage against structures again or even to give stomp some area-of-effect structure damage so that it can be used to clear out marines turtles/sentry spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've had both of these implementations tried already. 2 onos on any marine defended power node = no power.
This might play different with exo's in play, but since exo's are way slower than onos, onos would still be able to snipe marine power nodes faster than marines can defend. Still makes it to easy for aliens to pick of marine expansions and force them into a single base.