I've still never understood how magic antishrapnel nano protects you from the overpressure of an explosion. I get that it prevents penetrating injuries due to shrapnel, but what about blast lung and concussions?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
The solution is simple, just reduce the player damage from grenades?
It's role is anti structure.. Why is it killing skulks by splash damage and without los sometimes? A jack of all trades weapon will always be picked, hence why the gl is the holy grail over other purchases. Sure it reloads slowly and has limited ammo. This doesn't stop it's role from being too universal though, obviously. If the shotgun, with all it's downsides of cost and slow fire rate were present but it fired slugs instead of buckshot, it'd be the obvious choice.
Maintain roles, discourage use outside of it's role by lessening it's effectiveness when doing so.
I suggest halving damage to players, as this would ensure an entire squad using gl's would be far less effective than a variety/ mix of weapons to cover those gl carriers. (weapon scarcity did this in ns1 due to the resource model, but now rps in a soft counter form is the solution)
If each GL round only did 5-10hp team damage it would seem fair. Would take almost your entire grenade supply to kill a team mate.
Thats not really enough damage to go griefing your team. The odd person on very low health would whine. but it would seem fair enough if grenades are exploding around you.
AngeluszHarmonic entropistJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
I'm a big fan of the 'disorient' idea. Lower damage vs alien players (keep it the same vs structures) and add a disorient effect to any player hit, marine or alien.
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1964901:date=Aug 19 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Aug 19 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a big fan of the 'disorient' idea. Lower damage vs alien players (keep it the same vs structures) and add a disorient effect to any player hit, marine or alien.
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good, though I would argue that any grenade which scores a direct hit on a life-form should do the same damage as now. Kinda rewards the marine for being a good shot... or a lucky git. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1964901:date=Aug 19 2012, 01:24 PM:name=Angelusz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angelusz @ Aug 19 2012, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964901"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a big fan of the 'disorient' idea. Lower damage vs alien players (keep it the same vs structures) and add a disorient effect to any player hit, marine or alien.
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, it currently is just too good vs lifeforms for a weapon thats supposed to be anti building. Imagine if bilebomb did all its damage instantly and hurt hp too, would be broken as hell.
Disorientate would have to be tweaked but is a good one. I think aswell as lowering the damage you would have to lower the splash vs alien lifeforms. Currnetly you can be stood several meters away and still take a good 50 damage, if that disorientated aswell at that range might be a bit too much?
<!--quoteo(post=1964510:date=Aug 18 2012, 12:25 AM:name=EgoGamer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EgoGamer @ Aug 18 2012, 12:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Was anyone else reminded of those old ms-paint NS cartoons? In particular the one where a marine gets a fly off the other marine with a grenade? Yeah this thread reminded me of that but couldn't find it anywhere to link it here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.readyroom.org/gallery/nanites-and-bacterium/" target="_blank">http://www.readyroom.org/gallery/nanites-and-bacterium/</a> Not sure if those are all.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea if you simply adjust the player damage then there's zero need for the disorient effect, as you wont have 6 marines spamming grenades at their friends' feet anymore! Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon. Must...encourage...roles...
<!--quoteo(post=1965036:date=Aug 19 2012, 09:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 19 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea if you simply adjust the player damage then there's zero need for the disorient effect, as you wont have 6 marines spamming grenades at their friends' feet anymore! Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon. Must...encourage...roles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Id like to see a flamer style weapon for aliens too. Flamer basically counters adrenalyn and ###### anyone with out it, Id like soemthing that would rape jetpack fuel and regen in the same way flames do, perhaps parasite could have this effect to make skulks worth something later on, or maybe add another skillshot to the gorgey for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1965036:date=Aug 19 2012, 10:59 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Aug 19 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea if you simply adjust the player damage then there's zero need for the disorient effect, as you wont have 6 marines spamming grenades at their friends' feet anymore! Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon. Must...encourage...roles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to this. GL spam is cheap and boring. You can't do nothing against it as alien beside fleeing and flanking. (And even this doesn't work if the marines know how to spam them.) It should be an anti-structure weapon. But instead of decreasing the damage on players, it would be cooler to <u>decrease the splash-radius only on players</u>. This way you can use the GL skillful with direct hits, but the annoying spam ends and it does change nothing on the splash behavior for buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1964681:date=Aug 18 2012, 09:36 AM:name=cake.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cake. @ Aug 18 2012, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't "fix" anything. First of all there isnt anything broken. What would you do about gorges stacking bilebomb? The only thing this does is give aliens an unbelievable leg up, or "op them" if you will.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bilebombs dont one shot marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1964693:date=Aug 18 2012, 10:05 AM:name=cake.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cake. @ Aug 18 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the whips have been fixed, there won't be such an issue anymore. Friendly fire in NS2 is very counterproductive. Even with some players shooting with controlled bursts, they still hit marines sometimes. The majority just holds down the left mouse button until something dies. Introducing FF will completely destroy the idea of "teamplay" and will make teams completely obsolete and will encourage rambo-ing, ruining the core idea of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who suggested FF for anything but the GL? Better yet why?
One thing I do not think should be done is lowering the damage against players the GL costs 25res(that's half a fade!) to buy and more tres to research it is meant to be an upgrade and one of the best weapons in the game.
I think partial FF (like 50% of damage) for only the GL would be a reasonable solution.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
So break continuity and ensure lack of role distinction by removing tradeoffs and thus any real reason for decision (i.e. always pick GL)<i> all in one fell swoop?</i> Noooo thank you..
As you said its HALF a fade, you can buy 2 GLs for a fade and the GLs are reusable. They rip through structures and aliens alike and have very little downside (zero when you take into account jetpacks). Something needs to be done about them, I feel like a pure invincible tank when i get a GL/jetpack (35 res). Compare that to a lerk (minor annoyance) or a fade (nasty, until jets/shotgun comes up). Maybe increasing the cost of the second CC to 40 like a hive would be nice too..
<!--quoteo(post=1964592:date=Aug 17 2012, 11:09 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Aug 17 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd be okay with no damage, but some kind of concussive effect. You might not put any holes in your teammate but you will knock him around some with overpressure from the explosives. It'd make the "wall of grenades" approach a little less viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like something similar to this.
Although i think mines that explode should do damage to all marines not just the owner of the mine. You can plan ahead and position yourself behind the mine but it's harder to plan with grenades fired by another marine. I just hate marines that camp on mines from other players.
I have never lost a 1v1 to a GL. GLs are weak in small numbers. The spamming is only viable in large numbers. I too think the GL spam down hallways is cheap, but to say it's unbeatable is asinine. If a full team of GLs walk down a hallway, I'm going to kill them with a single fade. You have to use the GL in squads of other marines to truly realize their potential. They're so good in pubs because most everyone is new and you barely have to aim the GLs. Thus, GLs give the most firepower for the skill it takes to use them. A good shotgun is far more deadly.
I'll agree with ironhorse that I think the GL could stand to lose some player damage to make it more exlusively anti-building.
<!--quoteo(post=1965738:date=Aug 22 2012, 06:39 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 22 2012, 06:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do people think GLs have no downsides?
I have never lost a 1v1 to a GL. GLs are weak in small numbers. The spamming is only viable in large numbers. I too think the GL spam down hallways is cheap, but to say it's unbeatable is asinine. If a full team of GLs walk down a hallway, I'm going to kill them with a single fade. You have to use the GL in squads of other marines to truly realize their potential. They're so good in pubs because most everyone is new and you barely have to aim the GLs. Thus, GLs give the most firepower for the skill it takes to use them. A good shotgun is far more deadly.
I'll agree with ironhorse that I think the GL could stand to lose some player damage to make it more exlusively anti-building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of this. The SG is more dangerous. But it is simply frustrating dieing in GL-spam you can't do much when this happens. It is cheap and this creates the frustration.
Also a pure damage vs player decrease would be unintuitive. Most people would think, that you make huge damage with the GL when you manage to hit the alien directly (namely against onos.) Having just a smaller blast radius against players is better. That doesn't make the GL useless against players and bigger aliens, but it will need some skill instead of simple spam.
~Mindless bump (I blame Ironhorse for having a full inbox.) Originally I thought FF being server-side rules would work but this is getting pretty ridiculous by now. I'd love to see nades deal less damage on its blast radius so they can't just lock a squad down completely. If we're keeping to this, though; shouldn't mines deal an equal-bit (especially since they can one-hit kill skulks early-game without carapace and teamates can just stand on them without a single worry?)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I see your bump, and raise you another in the name of proper roles! Also, my inbox has been cleaned up, sry bout that, I wish it notified me.
Related: in a game last night I saw two fades enter sub sector but we were already spamming grenades all over the room that we owned .. Poor things walked into death before being able to even get some swipes in.. I would have been so livid if I were them dying from an anti structure weapon that wasn't intended or aimed for me..
Grenade spam sucks, but I can't really see a way to fix it without removing the weapon. > Reducing the blast radius for players only is unintuitive (but probably the best option on the table). > Adding in negative effects to allies would feel great for Kharaa, but nobody wants to be on the Marines with that new player who doesn't understand why everyone is yelling at him for trying to shoot the skulk and save his teammate. We need to design this game to be idiot proof and grief proof, because there will be confusion, and there will be sadistic players. > Nerfing player damage is dangerous. GLs are the only thing that a low-to-mid skilled team can use against an Onos before Exosuits come out, and if we make GLs too vulnerable or ineffective, people will just stop bothering to use them. I think there needs to be a situation for GLs and a situation for ARCs, but I'm not sure what the difference between those is. Honestly, ARCs are just less rage inducing in general; they don't re-assemble themselves after you kill them, and they don't murder your team with random spam.
It almost seems like we could just remove GLs and make ARCs more accessible. I don't think UWE will ever try that though; it's quite a radical change, and they've gone and made a model for it already.
Late to the topic but I do think its pretty retarded when marines spam grenades at there allies feet. I don't really know what needs to be done about it but I would agree that something does need to be done.
Just came to me while I was typing this how about thorns, I remember it being used in another fps game. Instead of your ff killing your team mate it would instead kill you. but at a decreased rate of dmg.
Comments
It's role is anti structure.. Why is it killing skulks by splash damage and without los sometimes?
A jack of all trades weapon will always be picked, hence why the gl is the holy grail over other purchases. Sure it reloads slowly and has limited ammo. This doesn't stop it's role from being too universal though, obviously. If the shotgun, with all it's downsides of cost and slow fire rate were present but it fired slugs instead of buckshot, it'd be the obvious choice.
Maintain roles, discourage use outside of it's role by lessening it's effectiveness when doing so.
I suggest halving damage to players, as this would ensure an entire squad using gl's would be far less effective than a variety/ mix of weapons to cover those gl carriers. (weapon scarcity did this in ns1 due to the resource model, but now rps in a soft counter form is the solution)
Thats not really enough damage to go griefing your team. The odd person on very low health would whine. but it would seem fair enough if grenades are exploding around you.
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good, though I would argue that any grenade which scores a direct hit on a life-form should do the same damage as now. Kinda rewards the marine for being a good shot... or a lucky git. ;)
Would make it less annoying if it gets spammed (overall damage would be lower), but still a useful tool because of the disorient effect.
How much you get disoriented would have to be tweaked a lot, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, it currently is just too good vs lifeforms for a weapon thats supposed to be anti building. Imagine if bilebomb did all its damage instantly and hurt hp too, would be broken as hell.
Disorientate would have to be tweaked but is a good one. I think aswell as lowering the damage you would have to lower the splash vs alien lifeforms. Currnetly you can be stood several meters away and still take a good 50 damage, if that disorientated aswell at that range might be a bit too much?
Yeah this thread reminded me of that but couldn't find it anywhere to link it here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="http://www.readyroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/nanitesandbacterium12_20061205_-716314482.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I strongly dislike the disorient idea, NS2 has enough of that annoying stuff.
Not sure if those are all.
Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon.
Must...encourage...roles...
Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon.
Must...encourage...roles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Id like to see a flamer style weapon for aliens too. Flamer basically counters adrenalyn and ###### anyone with out it, Id like soemthing that would rape jetpack fuel and regen in the same way flames do, perhaps parasite could have this effect to make skulks worth something later on, or maybe add another skillshot to the gorgey for it.
Time for a nostalgia trip! :D
Because if that happens, they wouldn't be very effective / would die soon.
Must...encourage...roles...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree to this. GL spam is cheap and boring. You can't do nothing against it as alien beside fleeing and flanking. (And even this doesn't work if the marines know how to spam them.) It should be an anti-structure weapon. But instead of decreasing the damage on players, it would be cooler to <u>decrease the splash-radius only on players</u>. This way you can use the GL skillful with direct hits, but the annoying spam ends and it does change nothing on the splash behavior for buildings.
Bilebombs dont one shot marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1964693:date=Aug 18 2012, 10:05 AM:name=cake.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cake. @ Aug 18 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1964693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When the whips have been fixed, there won't be such an issue anymore. Friendly fire in NS2 is very counterproductive. Even with some players shooting with controlled bursts, they still hit marines sometimes. The majority just holds down the left mouse button until something dies. Introducing FF will completely destroy the idea of "teamplay" and will make teams completely obsolete and will encourage rambo-ing, ruining the core idea of NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who suggested FF for anything but the GL? Better yet why?
One thing I do not think should be done is lowering the damage against players the GL costs 25res(that's half a fade!) to buy and more tres to research it is meant to be an upgrade and one of the best weapons in the game.
I think partial FF (like 50% of damage) for only the GL would be a reasonable solution.
Noooo thank you..
I'd like something similar to this.
Although i think mines that explode should do damage to all marines not just the owner of the mine. You can plan ahead and position yourself behind the mine but it's harder to plan with grenades fired by another marine. I just hate marines that camp on mines from other players.
o.0
I have never lost a 1v1 to a GL. GLs are weak in small numbers. The spamming is only viable in large numbers. I too think the GL spam down hallways is cheap, but to say it's unbeatable is asinine. If a full team of GLs walk down a hallway, I'm going to kill them with a single fade. You have to use the GL in squads of other marines to truly realize their potential. They're so good in pubs because most everyone is new and you barely have to aim the GLs. Thus, GLs give the most firepower for the skill it takes to use them. A good shotgun is far more deadly.
I'll agree with ironhorse that I think the GL could stand to lose some player damage to make it more exlusively anti-building.
I have never lost a 1v1 to a GL. GLs are weak in small numbers. The spamming is only viable in large numbers. I too think the GL spam down hallways is cheap, but to say it's unbeatable is asinine. If a full team of GLs walk down a hallway, I'm going to kill them with a single fade. You have to use the GL in squads of other marines to truly realize their potential. They're so good in pubs because most everyone is new and you barely have to aim the GLs. Thus, GLs give the most firepower for the skill it takes to use them. A good shotgun is far more deadly.
I'll agree with ironhorse that I think the GL could stand to lose some player damage to make it more exlusively anti-building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with most of this. The SG is more dangerous. But it is simply frustrating dieing in GL-spam you can't do much when this happens. It is cheap and this creates the frustration.
Also a pure damage vs player decrease would be unintuitive. Most people would think, that you make huge damage with the GL when you manage to hit the alien directly (namely against onos.) Having just a smaller blast radius against players is better. That doesn't make the GL useless against players and bigger aliens, but it will need some skill instead of simple spam.
Originally I thought FF being server-side rules would work but this is getting pretty ridiculous by now. I'd love to see nades deal less damage on its blast radius so they can't just lock a squad down completely. If we're keeping to this, though; shouldn't mines deal an equal-bit (especially since they can one-hit kill skulks early-game without carapace and teamates can just stand on them without a single worry?)
Also, my inbox has been cleaned up, sry bout that, I wish it notified me.
Related: in a game last night I saw two fades enter sub sector but we were already spamming grenades all over the room that we owned .. Poor things walked into death before being able to even get some swipes in.. I would have been so livid if I were them dying from an anti structure weapon that wasn't intended or aimed for me..
> Reducing the blast radius for players only is unintuitive (but probably the best option on the table).
> Adding in negative effects to allies would feel great for Kharaa, but nobody wants to be on the Marines with that new player who doesn't understand why everyone is yelling at him for trying to shoot the skulk and save his teammate. We need to design this game to be idiot proof and grief proof, because there will be confusion, and there will be sadistic players.
> Nerfing player damage is dangerous. GLs are the only thing that a low-to-mid skilled team can use against an Onos before Exosuits come out, and if we make GLs too vulnerable or ineffective, people will just stop bothering to use them. I think there needs to be a situation for GLs and a situation for ARCs, but I'm not sure what the difference between those is. Honestly, ARCs are just less rage inducing in general; they don't re-assemble themselves after you kill them, and they don't murder your team with random spam.
It almost seems like we could just remove GLs and make ARCs more accessible. I don't think UWE will ever try that though; it's quite a radical change, and they've gone and made a model for it already.
It looks quite tizzight, as the kids say.
Just came to me while I was typing this how about thorns, I remember it being used in another fps game. Instead of your ff killing your team mate it would instead kill you. but at a decreased rate of dmg.