A look back at skill-based movement in NS1 (with some reference to NS2)
TrueVeritas
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
Join Date: 2006-10-20 Member: 58082Members
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Other forms of skill-based movement can be alright, but I don't think I'd play a modern game with bunnyhop in it.
I'm a fan of air strafing in Half-Life/CS because it lets me get to harder to reach places, but I don't believe it's ever desired in design to allow things like this. Greater then normal speed or acceleration in the game should be tied to something like abilities or buffs and not a by-product of some accurately timed control inputs (however impressive).
I love Natural Selection, i really do. But no one can deny the fact that a lot of the aforementioned points are incorporated in NS2...
To many people, bunny hopping IS the chore.
I much prefer timing-based movement skill over repetitive, spammy based movement skill. To me, UT2k4's dodging system is a good example of movement skill. This is something with a powerful effect if done well (dodging shots) and hugely negative effects if performed poorly (predictable, easy to hit). It's a tool of moving, instead of replacing moving itself.
Not if it's not spammy and you can always improve on it.
Most people here have no understanding of what is ment with bunnyhopping exactly (hint: it's not just bashing the spacebar over and over), let alone have achieved a level of it where it could be even remotely considered a 'chore'. Moreover, I feel the topic may have been a waste of time, as the message will fall on deaf ears. Many (if not most) NS1-players have left\never-joined the NS2-bandwagon partly because of the lack of skill-based movement, and the ones that have stuck around I doubt you'll be able to convince, no matter how logically and nuanced you approach the subject (somehow the same old nonsense that has been debunked so many times already gets re-iterated, which indicates people are just not interested and are trying to shut you up by spamming crap).
If you want skill-based movement back, I think you should just go ahead and learn Lua, wait and see if NS2's performance will be any good, then go ahead and make a mod. You're not going to get support from these folks if that's what you're after, and the old-school NS1-players aren't coming back as long as there isn't anything for them to look forward to. Of course if it turns out performance remains terrible, all of this has just been a futile exercise, because if there is one thing skill-based movement absolutely requires, it is a rock-solid engine that delivers a flawless framerate.
(skill based movement doesn't have to be bhop)
I couldn't care less about immersion. Bhop is a pretty ridiculous movement mechanic in its own right. It wasn't even intended to be a movement mechanic. That alone should tell you how unintuitive it was. It "worked" in old games because gaming used to be different. The reasons that bhop can't exist in any modern shooter is the same as why modern MMOs can't be like EverQuest1. People don't want it; that's why it isn't in NS2.
In regards to skulks, wall jumping gives you something similar to bhopping. It's different, yes, but it attempts to perform the same thing that bhopping did. The wall jumping isn't particularly great, but I don't think bhopping would be any better on this engine.
Our individual opinions on this are completely irrelevant. The devs don't want bhop, presumably because they either a) don't think it adds anything to the game or b) the costs out weigh the benefits. If there were a mass outcry for bhop, maybe we'd actually see bhop! The fact that this hasn't happened should tell you how little support a bhop mechanic has. It's just players looking back with nostalgic memories onto their yesteryears of gaming.
You're just a comedy-goldmine aren't you...
<!--quoteo(post=1945253:date=Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to skulks, wall jumping gives you something similar to bhopping. It's different, yes, but it attempts to perform the same thing that bhopping did. The wall jumping isn't particularly great, but I don't think bhopping would be any better on this engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a crappy attempt at a movement-mechanic, it's worse than bunnyhopping, and in fact it doesn't really have a place in NS2 because (contrary to NS1), the maps in NS2 have very elaborate geometry making them unsuitable for such a thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1945253:date=Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our individual opinions on this are completely irrelevant. The devs don't want bhop, presumably because they either a) don't think it adds anything to the game or b) the costs out weigh the benefits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter what the devs want, the game is extremely moddable. The devs themselfs even stated they'd like to see the game taken into different directions via that route. Besides, the devs have had their share of questionable design-decisions, so I'm not taken in by the authority-argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1945253:date=Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there were a mass outcry for bhop, maybe we'd actually see bhop! The fact that this hasn't happened should tell you how little support a bhop mechanic has.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's be honest here, the people hanging around these forums are hardly a good yard-stick for anything. The alpha+beta-release had many thousands of pre-orders, and there certainly aren't that many around now posting on these forums or playing the game. So let's not fall back to the majority-is-always-right argument, because it is a bad argument to begin with and moreover it isn't even applicable to current state of events.
<!--quoteo(post=1945253:date=Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jun 20 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1945253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just players looking back with nostalgic memories onto their yesteryears of gaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hop on one of the 2 still active NS1-servers, and see that nostalgia in all its glory delivering an excellent game-experience (better than NS2 does right now, or may ever will).
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->*Nope, still not learning to be nice. Maybe the 3rd time is a charm?*<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> --Comprox
best skill based games were just buggy and everyone loved it. see gunZ for example crappy vanilla game with tons of bug movements that made it one of the most difficult games to master (havent seen something harder). today thats unacceptable.