Don't care for the Khammander myself. I really loved the asymmetrical design from NS1 and thought it added a lot of flavor to the game. I would actually use that as a pitch to get my friends into the game. Each side was entirely different. Now it's much more Marines vs Aliens rather than Asymmetrical FPS/RTS. It's still better than most other shooters out there, but I can't help feeling that we've lost something special.
If we must have a Khammander I prefer Freemantle and Egad's system where it's more active. The most active part of the aliens is the infestation, so it would be great for that to be directly linked to what the Khammander can do. Release spores and pheromones on the infestation and the Commander can only drop health kits in powered areas.
I really don't care for Drifters, either. I'd really prefer to see the infestation kind of congeal into a structure rather than have a Zerg Drone (that is less useful in every way) come over and build. The entire function of a Drifter could be given to the infestation with no loss of gameplay depth, so I have to ask why it's there. If we got rid of it the cyst network would be critical and the aliens could play a more ambush-oriented game based around the infestation and spores/pheromones that the Khammander provides.
What if the alien commander could switch between first person and top down view to enable them to place structures on the roof and in areas not visible with the limited top down view? Maybe make a drifter controllable and act like the gorge to have the same placement mechanics for whips ect. ?
The commander could place a drifter in an area they want to build in and it would act as their 'eyes' to switch to first person in that room to allow for advanced building. A room with a drifter could have addded benefits aswell- maybe greater sight of enemies, boost of adrenaline... etc? It could then be a mobile target for marines as well as a mechanic for greater alien building.
Buildings wouldnt require drifters to evolve into the building but would provide greater flexibility of commander to place structures simply with res (or from a cyst).
<3 Egad. I really do feel like NS2 could benefit from grabbing some of Zombie Master's lessons, if for no reason other than to try them out and learn what direction to go in. The ZM team spent so much time learning how to create engaging Player v Environment combat, it seems wasteful not to look at what they discovered.
I am for the model, when the infestation is spred without the cyst system just by commander pointing the way it should be growing (others already posted some interesing concepts about this). Keep cysts - cysts will be placed to strenghten up the infestation, provide detection (like connect it to the hivemind) and they should be evolved in the buildings. With exeptions to the Whips, they should be built in hives.
Drop Drifters? I am not sure about the harvesters, if they should go back to gorges (but the personal resources model is problem). Or could they by placed only on "connected" infestation, or if they should be placed freely and should spawn their own "unconnected" infestation, or could be placed on any kind of infestation. And who will build hives? Should do it Gorges and let them be able to draw from team resources (thats no good options).
As you can see its kinda tricky to figure it out and it shows us that current system is maybe the most viable one. Althought I don't like Drifters and Cysts either.
With batterypacks included again, Marines are becoming more ninja than Khaara in building aspect. But maybe it should be like this - Aliens are ninja soldiers but with static structures tied to infestation. Versus Marines with relocation flexibility but clumsy soldiers.
All theese new concept of powergrid and infestation brings too many new layers (and hindrances) to the gameplay that we cannot solve seeing throught NS1 optics. Dunno.. I am getting more confused, the longer I am writing this post, so I'd like stop now! :-D
I like that "Zombie Master" idea from Egad/Techercizer. That game was really neat, although I only played it for an hour or so.
I'll probably like whatever the remade khamm is like, too. When I play it I can see that the potential is there to be just as fun and interesting as the marines comm. Like anything, it takes time and effort to get it there. Especially when it's a new feature for NS.
I would also be fine with the khamm being boring/simple and having players rotate in and out of the hive to use it, provided the Shift is added to make the lifeforms a bit more powerful :)
It's good to hear the dev team will be having a good go at kharm. I personally would like to see, as has been suggested with some very good ideas, the kharm be alot more aggresive in nature. For instance having the alien commander do alot more with infestation to actually attack marines or hamper them. This would make it a very different experience to marine commander who is more defensive and helping his team out with healing etc.
One idea suggested I thought was brilliant. Exploding cysts. If the kharm could make cysts explode, and spray an acid cloud in the area which melted marines but not aliens due to acid resistant skin blah blah blah, that would be awesome. Making cysts that much more of a weapon to try and infest and attack the marines would change the game play completely and be extremely fun. This way you could also give gorges the ability to build resource towers as well, then the kharm could get the gorge's to build while he tries to infest and attack. But he would still have the option of building if he needed or wanted to.
The fact that the kharm doesnt interact that much with the other aliens bar gorge, I dont think its that big of an issue. Its almost like an ant hive. The workers are there to help the queen and get the colony up and running, while the guards do the fighting and protecting. They don't need to be told to do it, they just do it when ever a threat is present.
But in general making the alien commander a more offensive, infesting weapon, while the marine commander is more of a defensive, assisting weapon, would really bring the game alive. Two unique experiences. That and the kharm not being a bum who just watches energy.
P.S can you make whips be able to be group selected, numbered and controlled, so I can whip rush cause its really bloody frustrating atm.
I'm glad to see that the alien commander is due to be overhauled. A slight request is that the alien commander issues orders <i>without text</i> when possible. If the alien commands are non-verbal-ish and offer instant rewards, it will lead to more organic play. More like Pavlov teaching dogs to salivate than a strict order.
For instance:
<ul><li>Seeing marine player-models through walls in alien-flashlight orange when they are standing in an "attack" pheremone. Maybe it flashes faster the closer the marine is to death in order to convey a "I'm a pinata, candy comes out of me!" feeling to aliens. Make sure candy (res, healing, a cool roar noise) actually does come out when an alien obeys the attack pheromone.</li><li>An l4d-esque adrenaline blur at the edge of the screen when an alien is standing in a "defend" pheremone cloud, receiving candy (healing, res). When marines are contesting the area, dump this effect and possibly narrow FOV for a second to simulating "coming down" off of the buzz. Give the alien's a quick dose of candy when marine contention has been dealt with.</li><li>Fill a gorge's screen with ghost-placements of hydras when standing in a "defend" pheremone, give reduced res cost or an empowered version of the hydra out as candy.</li></ul>
Think like an animal for a second. Things like eating, rehydrating, reproducing, and evacuating waste all come to us instinctively because they either feel good or the alternative is painful or uncomfortable.
I've been playing NS since late 2002, so I've spent alot of hours in the game. It's been what? 2 years ago when I purchased NS2, and I still HATE the alien commander feature. For me, this is NS2's worst game feature, it just doesn't feel right. I'd rather NS2 not have the alien commander and leave this unique role to the marines like it did brillianty in NS1.
But, I'm hoping UW will do something with it, as they said they are, that will make it a worthy feature.
<!--quoteo(post=1905439:date=Feb 21 2012, 08:26 AM:name=echs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (echs @ Feb 21 2012, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been playing NS since late 2002, so I've spent alot of hours in the game. It's been what? 2 years ago when I purchased NS2, and I still HATE the alien commander feature. For me, this is NS2's worst game feature, it just doesn't feel right. I'd rather NS2 not have the alien commander and leave this unique role to the marines like it did brillianty in NS1.
But, I'm hoping UW will do something with it, as they said they are, that will make it a worthy feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think we should wait and see what they do with it in next 1-3 patches before keeping this discussion going, to see what direction they are going for. It might turn out to be awesome, lets try to be optimistic :)
I think it is important that we talk about it now, specifically because of the negativity. I imagine from UWE's shoes, they see three different types of players: those who will never like the alien commander, those who think it is a good idea but needs to be worked on, and those who think it is sub-optimal but trust UWE to make something fun. The moment they push out their changes, they're essentially telling the player community "this is the best thing we could conceptualize and execute on," and I imagine they have a lot of anxiety behind that. Why not make it easier by telling them exactly what we want in a constructive way?
<!--quoteo(post=1905599:date=Feb 21 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Freemantle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Freemantle @ Feb 21 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1905599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it is important that we talk about it now, specifically because of the negativity. I imagine from UWE's shoes, they see three different types of players: those who will never like the alien commander, those who think it is a good idea but needs to be worked on, and those who think it is sub-optimal but trust UWE to make something fun. The moment they push out their changes, they're essentially telling the player community "this is the best thing we could conceptualize and execute on," and I imagine they have a lot of anxiety behind that. Why not make it easier by telling them exactly what we want in a constructive way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, but it's kinda hard to tell them when we don't know what they are doing. You don't know if they are doing it well or bad at the moment. I'm pretty sure they won't change their mind til they have added it to the game. Hopefully it will turn out awesome but if it doesn't then the negativity will just increase. I'm bit scared if it turns out to be bad they will try to keep it in because they have already invested time on it and it will be one of those bad mechanics that tend to stick with mediocre games.
-I feel like they have ignore some parts of ns1 development, we are seeing few problems that did exist in ns1 come up again in ns2. I know ns2 should not be like ns1 but you can still learn allot by going through how ns1 changed from release to the final version. Its like a treasure chest of information.
If someone has an awesome idea how to make alien commander work though I would love to see it. You should keep at it Freemantle :).
I think this is just sign of me running out of patience, feels like the good arguments tend fall into a bottomless pit with all the effort that went into them. I can point out few of those from many users.
pretty sure that the alien commander isn't getting much more than pheromones before release.
so for anyone actually defending it, just understand that in a period of 6 months the alien commander is not going to do a 180 and suddenly become this amazingly well balanced experience. maybe some time after release, but for now it just isn't going to happen.
the worst part is how much time has been invested into this "feature". that's the only reason it's here to stay.
edit: there are obviously going to be some smaller changes, like the addition of the remaining structures, polish to the interface, and artistic improvements (like psiwarp said) but largely the experience won't be much different than it is now.
^- Mostly redone Commander menu, Pheromones, remaining buildings + abilities, better Cyst system + actual DI, etc. Not sure if they plan on revising the way AC works though.
You're right, TrueVeritas, that the Khamm isn't going to be drastically different come release, but I do think it will be balanced and intuitive. Granted, if you don't like the idea of the Khamm, you probably won't every like it, however I do believe it will work well enough. Whether or not that will justify changing things from NS1 remains to be seen. Perhaps it won't be as good, but I don't think it will be terrible.
Comments
If we must have a Khammander I prefer Freemantle and Egad's system where it's more active. The most active part of the aliens is the infestation, so it would be great for that to be directly linked to what the Khammander can do. Release spores and pheromones on the infestation and the Commander can only drop health kits in powered areas.
I really don't care for Drifters, either. I'd really prefer to see the infestation kind of congeal into a structure rather than have a Zerg Drone (that is less useful in every way) come over and build. The entire function of a Drifter could be given to the infestation with no loss of gameplay depth, so I have to ask why it's there. If we got rid of it the cyst network would be critical and the aliens could play a more ambush-oriented game based around the infestation and spores/pheromones that the Khammander provides.
The commander could place a drifter in an area they want to build in and it would act as their 'eyes' to switch to first person in that room to allow for advanced building. A room with a drifter could have addded benefits aswell- maybe greater sight of enemies, boost of adrenaline... etc?
It could then be a mobile target for marines as well as a mechanic for greater alien building.
Buildings wouldnt require drifters to evolve into the building but would provide greater flexibility of commander to place structures simply with res (or from a cyst).
Drop Drifters? I am not sure about the harvesters, if they should go back to gorges (but the personal resources model is problem). Or could they by placed only on "connected" infestation, or if they should be placed freely and should spawn their own "unconnected" infestation, or could be placed on any kind of infestation. And who will build hives? Should do it Gorges and let them be able to draw from team resources (thats no good options).
As you can see its kinda tricky to figure it out and it shows us that current system is maybe the most viable one. Althought I don't like Drifters and Cysts either.
With batterypacks included again, Marines are becoming more ninja than Khaara in building aspect. But maybe it should be like this - Aliens are ninja soldiers but with static structures tied to infestation. Versus Marines with relocation flexibility but clumsy soldiers.
All theese new concept of powergrid and infestation brings too many new layers (and hindrances) to the gameplay that we cannot solve seeing throught NS1 optics. Dunno.. I am getting more confused, the longer I am writing this post, so I'd like stop now! :-D
I'll probably like whatever the remade khamm is like, too. When I play it I can see that the potential is there to be just as fun and interesting as the marines comm. Like anything, it takes time and effort to get it there. Especially when it's a new feature for NS.
I would also be fine with the khamm being boring/simple and having players rotate in and out of the hive to use it, provided the Shift is added to make the lifeforms a bit more powerful :)
One idea suggested I thought was brilliant. Exploding cysts. If the kharm could make cysts explode, and spray an acid cloud in the area which melted marines but not aliens due to acid resistant skin blah blah blah, that would be awesome. Making cysts that much more of a weapon to try and infest and attack the marines would change the game play completely and be extremely fun. This way you could also give gorges the ability to build resource towers as well, then the kharm could get the gorge's to build while he tries to infest and attack. But he would still have the option of building if he needed or wanted to.
The fact that the kharm doesnt interact that much with the other aliens bar gorge, I dont think its that big of an issue. Its almost like an ant hive. The workers are there to help the queen and get the colony up and running, while the guards do the fighting and protecting. They don't need to be told to do it, they just do it when ever a threat is present.
But in general making the alien commander a more offensive, infesting weapon, while the marine commander is more of a defensive, assisting weapon, would really bring the game alive. Two unique experiences. That and the kharm not being a bum who just watches energy.
P.S can you make whips be able to be group selected, numbered and controlled, so I can whip rush cause its really bloody frustrating atm.
For instance:
<ul><li>Seeing marine player-models through walls in alien-flashlight orange when they are standing in an "attack" pheremone. Maybe it flashes faster the closer the marine is to death in order to convey a "I'm a pinata, candy comes out of me!" feeling to aliens. Make sure candy (res, healing, a cool roar noise) actually does come out when an alien obeys the attack pheromone.</li><li>An l4d-esque adrenaline blur at the edge of the screen when an alien is standing in a "defend" pheremone cloud, receiving candy (healing, res). When marines are contesting the area, dump this effect and possibly narrow FOV for a second to simulating "coming down" off of the buzz. Give the alien's a quick dose of candy when marine contention has been dealt with.</li><li>Fill a gorge's screen with ghost-placements of hydras when standing in a "defend" pheremone, give reduced res cost or an empowered version of the hydra out as candy.</li></ul>
Think like an animal for a second. Things like eating, rehydrating, reproducing, and evacuating waste all come to us instinctively because they either feel good or the alternative is painful or uncomfortable.
But, I'm hoping UW will do something with it, as they said they are, that will make it a worthy feature.
But, I'm hoping UW will do something with it, as they said they are, that will make it a worthy feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think we should wait and see what they do with it in next 1-3 patches before keeping this discussion going, to see what direction they are going for. It might turn out to be awesome, lets try to be optimistic :)
I agree, but it's kinda hard to tell them when we don't know what they are doing. You don't know if they are doing it well or bad at the moment. I'm pretty sure they won't change their mind til they have added it to the game. Hopefully it will turn out awesome but if it doesn't then the negativity will just increase. I'm bit scared if it turns out to be bad they will try to keep it in because they have already invested time on it and it will be one of those bad mechanics that tend to stick with mediocre games.
-I feel like they have ignore some parts of ns1 development, we are seeing few problems that did exist in ns1 come up again in ns2. I know ns2 should not be like ns1 but you can still learn allot by going through how ns1 changed from release to the final version. Its like a treasure chest of information.
If someone has an awesome idea how to make alien commander work though I would love to see it. You should keep at it Freemantle :).
I think this is just sign of me running out of patience, feels like the good arguments tend fall into a bottomless pit with all the effort that went into them. I can point out few of those from many users.
so for anyone actually defending it, just understand that in a period of 6 months the alien commander is not going to do a 180 and suddenly become this amazingly well balanced experience. maybe some time after release, but for now it just isn't going to happen.
the worst part is how much time has been invested into this "feature". that's the only reason it's here to stay.
edit: there are obviously going to be some smaller changes, like the addition of the remaining structures, polish to the interface, and artistic improvements (like psiwarp said) but largely the experience won't be much different than it is now.