When does the game end?
internetexplorer
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's a rhetorical question</div>One thing that I think isn't clear to people in this game is "when the game ends"
I don't mean the win conditions - people know that you wipe out all the hives, or the IPs and command chair, and that kind of thing.
What I'm talking about is the phenomenon where a team that is winning by a gigantic margin doesn't just go and win with a big attack...then the game drags out for half an hour and control flips to the other team after half the players get bored and leave. Right now about half the pub games of NS2 take over an hour to resolve when one team has had an enormous advantage the entire time (usually ending in a whip rush or arc train because players are afraid to use their guns).
Right now this happens because the game is an immature state - players don't understand the mechanics let alone the strategy, and some still suffer from bad performance etc.
However, the same problem ultimately happened a lot in NS1 pubs as well - people just don't know how to end the game, and the game doesn't end for them even when they control all but one square inch of the map.
In <b>Starcraft</b>, this is solved by having a limited amount of money on the map. Eventually, you can run out of resources to mine, which limits your production. If the enemy has a stranglehold on available mining sites, you try to attack and take them back, or you try to kill your opponent in one fell swoop. If you fail, you have lost and the game ends. This is a mechanic that's in nearly all RTS games, and it serves very well.
In the Half-Life mod <b>"Science & Industry"</b> the game is played for a fixed amount of time. The team's score is their 'profits' - everything you do affects the money going in or out of your company. If you die and respawn, you just cost the company $750 (the cost of cloning!), or if you have more scientists working for you than the enemy team, you make money faster. At the end of the set time, the team that made more money wins. It's the same idea as in Starcraft, but the point where no resources remain is always where the game ends (time runs out).
<b>What I want to discuss should be obvious at this point:</b> why doesn't NS/NS2 have a similar concept? Has it ever been playtested? I think it would do a lot to improve the dynamics of this game if resource nodes had limited supplies, respawning cost some kind of resource and so on. Is it possible to implement something like that in this game and keep it relatively simple, to match the overall NS design pattern? Is it possible to make players actually care about even more numbers and strategic concepts when some of them just want to set aliens on fire?
I'm not sure. Discuss!
I don't mean the win conditions - people know that you wipe out all the hives, or the IPs and command chair, and that kind of thing.
What I'm talking about is the phenomenon where a team that is winning by a gigantic margin doesn't just go and win with a big attack...then the game drags out for half an hour and control flips to the other team after half the players get bored and leave. Right now about half the pub games of NS2 take over an hour to resolve when one team has had an enormous advantage the entire time (usually ending in a whip rush or arc train because players are afraid to use their guns).
Right now this happens because the game is an immature state - players don't understand the mechanics let alone the strategy, and some still suffer from bad performance etc.
However, the same problem ultimately happened a lot in NS1 pubs as well - people just don't know how to end the game, and the game doesn't end for them even when they control all but one square inch of the map.
In <b>Starcraft</b>, this is solved by having a limited amount of money on the map. Eventually, you can run out of resources to mine, which limits your production. If the enemy has a stranglehold on available mining sites, you try to attack and take them back, or you try to kill your opponent in one fell swoop. If you fail, you have lost and the game ends. This is a mechanic that's in nearly all RTS games, and it serves very well.
In the Half-Life mod <b>"Science & Industry"</b> the game is played for a fixed amount of time. The team's score is their 'profits' - everything you do affects the money going in or out of your company. If you die and respawn, you just cost the company $750 (the cost of cloning!), or if you have more scientists working for you than the enemy team, you make money faster. At the end of the set time, the team that made more money wins. It's the same idea as in Starcraft, but the point where no resources remain is always where the game ends (time runs out).
<b>What I want to discuss should be obvious at this point:</b> why doesn't NS/NS2 have a similar concept? Has it ever been playtested? I think it would do a lot to improve the dynamics of this game if resource nodes had limited supplies, respawning cost some kind of resource and so on. Is it possible to implement something like that in this game and keep it relatively simple, to match the overall NS design pattern? Is it possible to make players actually care about even more numbers and strategic concepts when some of them just want to set aliens on fire?
I'm not sure. Discuss!
Comments
- Superweapon or superupgrade that gives the winning side a huge advantaged once researched/deployed/purchased
- An additional domination victory condition (e.g. holding all the technodes except one for X mins, Civ series-style)
- A time limit (e.g. Nuclear Dawn-style)
- Resource depletion (e.g. SC1/2-style)
- A ticket system, where each side gets a limited number of spawning tickets (e.g. Empiresmod-style)
I remember a game that lasted more than 3h in NS1 (no one left the Server, a Pub one), rines got overrun at MS so they got to do a emergency reloc to biodome, this was after around 1h game time. After 2 more hours the rines got a sneak PG up. Commander beconed all build the PG in MS and all but one phased to kill the hive. Another sneaked another PG up at another hive. Aliens were down to 1 hive. But they attacked biodome in the maintime.
The rines all walked to the last hive to kill it. They managed it to kill it and then they died by OCs.
We hear the bing for some secs but it stopped, so new hive somewhere. Com builds an new obs, armory and armslab. Build the obs and does a beacon, drops welders and the rines killed the hive and the last gorge with welders.
Even with 4 Hives in NS2 if you don't play as team you can't win. F.e. A commander, a gorge sitting in FC, another in DC, some suicide skulks, a sitting duck lerk, 1 pro Fade, 1pro Lerk, and 1 AFK. How to win if Marines start moving in a group of 5 with ARCs?
IMO it is not the problem that ppl "don't know" how to end a game it is the problem, that they don't act as team or are only looking to get more kills.
I ended the game several times alone by just harrasing the powernode as Lerk or Gorge while my teammates were no even near me. And that is frustrating. Alot of ppl play NS2 like you would play CoD.
I forget if res for kills is still in the game, but if it is and the kill switch still isn't strong enough, you could have rfk disabled if you only control one res node, thus making the res differential even stronger.
i've been waiting for this game changer since early alphas :)
It was just exciting...aliens was going to win but marines don't gave up or rage quit and the clean more of the map, but then aliens fight back until at the end, some team won.
These old times where so great!
But spawning cost res or res. nodes are limited with res., i don't know if this would destroy the fun or make it better.
The game use lua, i am sure some kind of these mods will come ;-)
But the game is not done, so creating a mod now, may result in lost work, because next patch changes something deep.
Also, i guess nobody knows how to use animations for models.
I forget if res for kills is still in the game, but if it is and the kill switch still isn't strong enough, you could have rfk disabled if you only control one res node, thus making the res differential even stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah we just did this..it was mass bile bombing
and it was a total waste of time when we could've started a new game instead :)
But was shot down among a hail of shouting.
For me it was more a method to promote expansion.
So since the expiring resources will probably never be tried
the true answer is improving coordination tools between the commander and the troops.
"everyone pigpile on this area"
The marines recently got plenty of love in this area and I find waypoints are used more often and actually followed.
The aliens UWE are currently working on a pheremones communication device...and I hope it helps resolve this last push effort to topple the team.
<!--quoteo(post=1896549:date=Jan 22 2012, 04:26 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jan 22 2012, 04:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896549"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In <b>Starcraft</b>, this is solved by having a limited amount of money on the map. Eventually, you can run out of resources to mine, which limits your production. If the enemy has a stranglehold on available mining sites, you try to attack and take them back, or you try to kill your opponent in one fell swoop. If you fail, you have lost and the game ends. This is a mechanic that's in nearly all RTS games, and it serves very well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, this situation also happens in SC (as well as most other RTS games). It's just that when you watch a casted match, the players always say "gg" before the game is actually over. If they actually waited till everything had been destroyed it would be a bit boring. I think this works fine in SC because most games are 1v1. It's a lot harder to get 15 people on your team to agree to concede and join the ready room.
I think the main reason it happens at the moment is simply sentry guns are too powerful. If I am playing on alien and the marines have several sentries in their main, then it just becomes off limits for me. I just camp outside the base and attack them where I know it's safe. I'd like to go in and destroy the base but at the moment the aliens aren't really very good at taking down sentries. Marines who group together effectively double their fire power as they can both shoot the 1 target at the same time. This makes a group of marines camping in a sentry filled base a very effective defence.
I think once sentry guns are balanced and aliens have effective ways to destroy buildings then this issue will go away.
The teams can organise themselves together for a quick, but powerful attack, boosted by abilities and commander effects (nano shield is an example, but I'm talking other effects) that allows a team to rush a single enemy position and take it out... but if they fail the rush, then (because these sort of "super rushes", cost a lot of resources) they would be vulnerable to a counter attack. Hell, even if they succeed, they'd still be vulnerable to a counter attack.
But what I mean, instead of the games progressing with slow attacks (marines moving slowly, destroying one cyst at a time). There are frequent, but concentrated outbursts of power to attack a single enemy base and take it (for example, capturing computer lab in summit), that every time an attack happens, there is the risk of making a mistake and losing the game, but if you don't take the enemy base, the enemy will win quickly too(because the enemy can do a "super rush" too).
The main thing I want to stress is the fact that it would require extra abilities, weapons, maybe even units.
Addition: also, I agree that there should be limited resources per game... Have a total pool available, and each res node draws from that single pool. This means that each point is still valuable until all resources are gone.
They say gg when they know the game is unwinnable, because the game allows you to do that. In NS, the equivalent is recycling infantry portals (which gets you ostracized from the server), or for the aliens...nothing! It's also considered bad manners to sit in an unwinnable game just messing around and wasting the opponent's time (like it should be in a pub with 20 players).
I agree about sentries etc being the cause, but not necessarily that they're too powerful. Maybe just too *annoying*.
<!--quoteo(post=1896718:date=Jan 22 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Ironsoul)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Jan 22 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896718"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the way the game works at the moment is set up for this slow death kind of end game. Perhaps some new gameplay-mechanics should be introduced to cause a more powerful, but shortlived style of fighting. What I mean is:
The teams can organise themselves together for a quick, but powerful attack, boosted by abilities and commander effects (nano shield is an example, but I'm talking other effects) that allows a team to rush a single enemy position and take it out... but if they fail the rush, then (because these sort of "super rushes", cost a lot of resources) they would be vulnerable to a counter attack. Hell, even if they succeed, they'd still be vulnerable to a counter attack.
But what I mean, instead of the games progressing with slow attacks (marines moving slowly, destroying one cyst at a time). There are frequent, but concentrated outbursts of power to attack a single enemy base and take it (for example, capturing computer lab in summit), that every time an attack happens, there is the risk of making a mistake and losing the game, but if you don't take the enemy base, the enemy will win quickly too(because the enemy can do a "super rush" too).
The main thing I want to stress is the fact that it would require extra abilities, weapons, maybe even units.
Addition: also, I agree that there should be limited resources per game... Have a total pool available, and each res node draws from that single pool. This means that each point is still valuable until all resources are gone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All interesting ideas. How much effort is it to put stuff like this together with LUA or whatever and try it?
<!--quoteo(post=1896719:date=Jan 22 2012, 06:23 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ Jan 22 2012, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896719"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->internetexplorer you mad :P Naw for sure, right now if marines turtle with mines and sents they will win......unless you get aliens to work a s a team and bum rush with fads and gorges. GG btw :P Need a fix, but like others say we wont know till game is complete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
haha I posted this thread before that game today, but it was a perfect example for sure
(also a great example of aliens refusing to coordinate and making fools of themselves)
Also just a quick random thought: fades having acid rockets helps alleviate this problem. They can support gorges who are bilebombing (and kill people who try to attack the gorges) but they can add to the ranged attack, which is what you have to do against a wall of mines and turrets. I'm sure there are ways to affect this without repeating NS1 over again, though.
It's hardly the game that's "allowing" them to do it. They just say gg and quit out. Easy to do on a 1v1.
In NS the problem with recycling the base is that there is bound to be some people who get pissed off because they are clueless and still thought they had a chance at winning. The equivalent would really be the entire team joining the ready room, but you almost never see that happening. It's too hard to get everyone to agree when the round is lost. The game really needs to be designed so that these situations don't happen and once teams have a big enough advantages they can quickly destroy the base to end it.
(TEAM) 2 players have voted to concede the round.
(TEAM) 3 players have voted to concede the round.
(TEAM) 4 players have voted to concede the round.
(ALL) The majority of the team have voted to concede the round.
<Round over>
(TEAM) 2 players have voted to concede the round.
(TEAM) 3 players have voted to concede the round.
(TEAM) 4 players have voted to concede the round.
(ALL) The majority of the team have voted to concede the round.
<Round over><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That (sort of) works, but I view it more as a kludge rather than an appropriate game mechanic. While chess-style concede works in RTS games, it doesn't do very well in FPSs. Still, a lot of the competitive matches I've played in NS2 end via one-side rring.
Aliens are afraid of ending a game they've won. Their brains rot while remaining idle for too long and they let marines start retaking the map when they should not be able to by any means.
Prove me wrong!
HA Trains are ###### devastating to skulks gorges and lerks due to invul to gas, and tbh fades had a hard time with them too. Onos's that pissed about too much also got smashed by the HMG's that usually accompanied the HA's.
I guess the morale here is this is still a beta, we haven;t got all the cards on the table yet, and perhaps for topics like this we should wait until they 'finally' finish the game and let us devour people like back in NS 1.
its gonna rock!
HA Trains are ###### devastating to skulks gorges and lerks due to invul to gas, and tbh fades had a hard time with them too. Onos's that pissed about too much also got smashed by the HMG's that usually accompanied the HA's.
I guess the morale here is this is still a beta, we haven;t got all the cards on the table yet, and perhaps for topics like this we should wait until they 'finally' finish the game and let us devour people like back in NS 1.
its gonna rock!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a solid idea in general, but I still remember playing NS1 less than a couple years ago and seeing tons of games drag out because of how the resource model is set up. Even with hivewalk allowing the whole alien team to teleport into the marines' base, it wasn't always possible to end games as easily as I would like. Why do I want to end games easily when they're "decided"? So you can start another one and everyone can try again. I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of flipped bathtub curve for player excitement in games over time - somebody find it!
I've only seen one long stalemate in the latest patch, due to good fades being mostly unkillable and gorges ramboing with bile bomb while marines had enough res to keep taking out the third hive. I think it would have been easily resolved by onos or heavy armor.
ARC? Onos?
Maybe some heavy teching might make it grow stronger when a finisher is needed, but all that requires time. You probably don't want to spend that many minutes just waiting for the 3rd hive and then sufficient upgrades just because you need a game finisher.