<!--quoteo(post=1967867:date=Aug 28 2012, 06:22 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 28 2012, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I want to THANK YOU ALL. For this experience, which has made me eternally grateful for your kindness, your criticism, and your honesty. This thread is a testament to your patience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually our pleasure. Heard you working on another maps. Hope to see your another new gorgeous maps anytime soon!
It's the most beautiful map so far imo. Fantastic job!
I'm curious about the 5th tech point though. Do you plan to have one, or will this map be 4 tech points only? Because if so, there won't be a full end-game, with the current tech-tree.
I'd also like to know about the changes to skylights and topo. Were they deemed necessary after playtesting, or was this just personal preference? Also, while i do like the new system waypointing, i loved that area in ns1, too. Any comments on why you diverged from the original layout in these three areas?
Really great work, can't wait to get home and test it on a pub. I only had the time to have a quick runthrough yet.
The veil remake is a fantastic looking map, but a bit of the magic that was veil gets lost in the translation from NS1 to NS2, certain aspects of the map, such as node control and base ease of access do not really work for NS2 like they did in NS1. I think that veil has the potential to be one of the best NS2 maps out there, but it needs to evolve to its own NS2 map as opposed to a direct imitation of its NS1 counterpart.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1968149:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:25 AM:name=3del!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (3del! @ Aug 29 2012, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968149"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's the most beautiful map so far imo. Fantastic job!
I'm curious about the 5th tech point though. Do you plan to have one, or will this map be 4 tech points only? Because if so, there won't be a full end-game, with the current tech-tree.
I'd also like to know about the changes to skylights and topo. Were they deemed necessary after playtesting, or was this just personal preference? Also, while i do like the new system waypointing, i loved that area in ns1, too. Any comments on why you diverged from the original layout in these three areas?
Really great work, can't wait to get home and test it on a pub. I only had the time to have a quick runthrough yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No plans to change the map from it's current incarnation at this time. I'd rather call it a year, hehe. I think the map will surprise many with how flexible and wise some of the changes made have been.
West Skylights was made out of gameplay concerns about the narrow channel leading into West Junction, quite a few months ago. Topo was more of a superficial change except for the upper vents, which are not too consequential. System Waypointing and C-12 were necessary to change in order to give Aliens more of a fighting chance, in the first alpha versions of the map it was quite Marine-sided, and may still be so, slightly, even with just the lonely tech point in command.
<!--quoteo(post=1968224:date=Aug 29 2012, 03:11 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 29 2012, 03:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968224"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No plans to change the map from it's current incarnation at this time. I'd rather call it a year, hehe. I think the map will surprise many with how flexible and wise some of the changes made have been.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like the changes and think they'll suit ns2 very well. I was just curious what motivated them. Thanks for clarifying. I can understand that you want to move on now, and the map certainly is finished and polished. I'm just wondering about the lack of a fifth tech point. UWE certainly is aware of it, since they helped you out, i guess. So are there any plans to remove the need for a second CS for marines? Or enable aliens to get third hive abilities on 2 hives?
I have played the map only 3 times now and always as aliens, but i already noticed a big problem for the aliens. Especially when your main hive is cargo. I did start a server myself and tried to build the shortest cyst chains to RTs from different hives.
Main hive Sub-Sector Cysts to Overlook RT: 5 Cysts to Cargo RT: 9 Cysts to NanoGrid Status RTs: 8 Cysts from Overlook RT to West Skylights RT: 5 (doesn't make sense in early game, marine base is always to close)
Main hive Cargo Cysts to NanoGrid Status RTs: 8 Cysts to Pipe Junction RT: 12* (Through Maintenance) Cysts to Pipe Junction RT: 11 (Through The Dome) Cysts to Emergency Nozzle RT: 9
*Although there seems to be a bug, in the loop in front of the hive is a opening where a box is placed but the cysts can't be placed in the opening or behind it, i have to build completely through the loop. If you know what i mean :?)
Main hive Pipe Junction: Cysts to Emergency Nozzle RT: 5 Cysts from Emergency Nozzle to NanoGrid Status RTs: 7 Cysts from Emergency Nozzle to Topographical Analysis RTs: 6 (doesn't make sense in early game, marine base is always to close) Cysts to Cargo RT: 11 (through Maintenance)
If i compare this to the distances on other maps like ns2_summit we can see that the distance is in most cases 5-6 Cysts from RT to RT node.
Main hive Flight Control: Cysts to Crevice RT: 5 Cysts to Computer Lab RT: 5 Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 7 Cysts from Crevice RT to Atrium RT: 7 Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Sub-Access RT: 5
Main hive Atrium: Cysts to Crevice RT: 6* Cysts to Reactor Core RT: 5 Cysts from Crevice RT to Flight Control RT: 6 Cysts from Crevice RT to Cross Roads RT: 7 Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Data Core RT: 8 Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Cross Roads RT: 7
*I could not build Cysts at the new stair exit of atrium, could be shorter if they fix this.
Main hive Data Core: Cysts to Ventilation RT: 5 Cysts to Reactor Core RT: 6 Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 8 (through Glass Hallway) Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 8 (through Pipe Junction) Cysts from Ventilation RT to Sub Access RT: 6 Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Atrium RT: 6
Main hive Sub Access: Cysts to Ventilation RT: 5 Cysts to Computer Lab RT: 5 Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 11 (through Maintenance) Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Cross Roads RT: 6 Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Flight Control RT: 5 Cysts from Ventilation to Data Core RT: 6
To sum this up. Pipe Junction and Sub-Sector have a RT which is connectable with a fair cysts number. Cargo doesn't have this. The cysts required to NanoGrid Status is higher but it gives access to 2 RTs so i think it is fair. The numbers to reach the RT node of a other hive location are ridiculous. It makes even more sense to drop a hive and grow it fast with 1-2 gorges then to invest 10+ cysts to reach another hive, at least in early game. This is a big problem in balancing since marines don't need to spend the extra res and they don't require the cyst chain to be able to build a RT. If the aren't able to rush to NanoGrid Status and are able to hold it they have a serious problem with nearly no res income. I'm not sure how to fix it, but currently the map is just no fun as aliens.
Yeah veil is an amazing NS1 map but it does not translate well at all to NS2, I just hope the development team keeps working with the current map to make it as good as it can be.
Map takes more teamwork on aliens, but IMO is alien-sided. There are many good vents around the map, which allow for very strong alien pressure... which is required for your team to hold its resource towers. Veil plays different than any other NS2 map to date, and arguably offers the most enjoyable gameplay IMO. Realistically aliens only need 3rts early game to do well, which is doable on any spawn, with cargo/nano split being doable and beneficial if you can pull it off (risk/reward). The biggest mistake i see alien teams making is that they let the marines control too much res for too long (usually a side of the map like sub/pipe and double). If you do not pressure their RTs you will have a much tougher fight (especially with wave spawns and no pres when dead ATM).
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Yep, it was already designed with lots of changes to make it work with NS2 gameplay. But the corner spawning for aliens is still an issue with all hive location being on a similar line. It is quite easy to cut off the aliens from the other side of the map by simply holding nanogrid (double res).
<!--quoteo(post=1968377:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:15 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Map takes more teamwork on aliens, but IMO is alien-sided. There are many good vents around the map, which allow for very strong alien pressure... which is required for your team to hold its resource towers. Veil plays different than any other NS2 map to date, and arguably offers the most enjoyable gameplay IMO. Realistically aliens only need 3rts early game to do well, which is doable on any spawn, with cargo/nano split being doable and beneficial if you can pull it off (risk/reward). The biggest mistake i see alien teams making is that they let the marines control too much res for too long (usually a side of the map like sub/pipe and double). If you do not pressure their RTs you will have a much tougher fight (especially with wave spawns and no pres when dead ATM).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vents and all are nice, but if you can't use them they don't help much. It's just unbalanced that aliens need to work much better together on this map then on any other map. The marines can hold Topo and Skylights RT very easily and have 3 RTs. The aliens need to take some risk and/or invest a lot of resources. If your main hive is Pipe Junction, the marines will have the West Side of the map which are 3 RTs (Skylights, Overlook an Sub-Sector) and they will also have Topo RT, 5 RTs total. Aliens need a lot of time to travel to the west side of the map to try to destroy their RTs. The Emergency RT is easily accessible for the aliens, but to reach Double RT they have to build their Cysts through east junction where the cysts can easily be destroyed by marines from Topo. And like i posted they need around 12 cysts to get the RT in Cargo.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
yep it needs a 5th techpoint somewhere - maybe instead of double. and then cargo hive needs to be put further south so the main 4 hives are a diamond shape, with a techpoint in the center of the map - like summit basically
Yes make every map like summit because its so perfectly balanced... How can you not use vents, did they get welded shut or something? Pub alien play is disorganized as anything because people just run off to go gorge or do whatever, when generally pub marine play has better teamwork (wierd). Thats why you need to work together more as aliens (to actually achieve somewhat of an even amount of teamwork) to win on veil.
Second, 7 cysts to cargo rt from c12 on pipe hive 8/8 to nano/c12 on cargo hive, and 9 to pipe from cargo... Higher cysts costs for cargo is fine IMO since your gaining a more central map location, with better inherent map control.
5th tech location is not needed in any way and only creates more problems, especially with there being no place to put it besides double (which makes that room way to important).
<!--quoteo(post=1968542:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes make every map like summit because its so perfectly balanced... How can you not use vents, did they get welded shut or something? Pub alien play is disorganized as anything because people just run off to go gorge or do whatever, when generally pub marine play has better teamwork (wierd). Thats why you need to work together more as aliens (to actually achieve somewhat of an even amount of teamwork) to win on veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The vents are obviously usable, the word i did chose wasn't the right one. I meant that vents don't help you every situation since you have to exit the vents to fight.
<!--quoteo(post=1968542:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, 7 cysts to cargo rt from c12 on pipe hive 8/8 to nano/c12 on cargo hive, and 9 to pipe from cargo... Higher cysts costs for cargo is fine IMO since your gaining a more central map location, with better inherent map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know what do you want to say with the first part of this paragraph. I don't think that cargo gives a much better map control and we're talking about the RT not the hive. The RT in cargo gives you no map control. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1968542:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5th tech location is not needed in any way and only creates more problems, especially with there being no place to put it besides double (which makes that room way to important).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you that a 5th tech point isn't necessary.
Already posted the following in the Exo thread, but I guess it belongs here.
Most corridors and rooms of ns2_veil feel small and cramped. 'System Waypointing' is a prime example: Hologram in the center, multiple large pedestals in the already small room and very narrow exits. The western approach to the middle hive is also so small that when you enter it, the exit is already in your face. Those are just two examples, but in general most hallways are quite narrow with low ceilings and the rooms are also quite small. Good job on preserving the overall layout and vent system though.
Just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, thanks to blinds video its quite obvious: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1546s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA...ailpage#t=1546s</a>
Have to say that even though the areas and corridors feel huge in size, and especially cargo is marine heaven, its a very enjoyable map overall. I really like the large amount of vents, they allow you to flank marines pretty much in every major chokepoint on the map. Had plenty of fun playing gathers on it last night.
I dont think additional techpoint would be good at all, its already quite possible to drop a second hive with relative ease due to the size of the map. Lets definitely not turn this to another summit. I think the resource availability felt pretty good also. My main gripe would be just the huge size of some areas.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1968746:date=Aug 30 2012, 05:12 AM:name=falc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (falc @ Aug 30 2012, 05:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968746"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, thanks to blinds video its quite obvious: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1546s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA...ailpage#t=1546s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies for letting this one get through. I could swear I looked into it. Oh well, it'll be fixed!
<!--quoteo(post=1968938:date=Aug 30 2012, 05:13 PM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Aug 30 2012, 05:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968938"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My apologies for letting this one get through. I could swear I looked into it. Oh well, it'll be fixed!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really don't need to excuse yourself for this. I like the exo trap (until i don't jump in it myself)...
Besides that, this map is so full of "awesomeness" and nostalgia ... really good job! :)
Not sure if it was pointed out, but I've seen multiple Oni and an exosuit get stuck on the exit heading east out of Pipeline. Not sure what's causing it, but I just wanted to point it out just in case.
This map looks awesome, but is unplayable for aliens to win.
Out of 10 matches, i saw 2 times the alien team winning... on different days. NS2 gameplay doesnt fit in ns1-map-design.
I really angry right now... Put a phase gate with a powerpack in cargo at the south border and an ovservatory and its impossible to lose as marines.
Phase gates = instant win (if marine team is not completly bad).
Hopefully there will be some changes, atm the map will never be played in competitive matches, i guess. More awfull than mineshaft... (Design and look is awesome, but its almost unplayable for aliens)
Nevermind, but i never expected 56% win for aliens on this... what i saw, was much different.
One Question: Was the alien-speed in NS1 faster ? (some hallways are really, really long)
PS: was marine com 2-3 times and is was really easy to win... phase gate in nano-grid + secured 1 free hive location + scan / rush if hive on 2 free hive location. really hard for aliens to do anything without 2 hive (leap).
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
Yeah, I've been winning on both sides. It's very different from a lot of other NS2 maps, and basically requires phase gates for marines... but I like that it's brought back the opportunistic phase gate locations. Putting PGs at Dome and System Waypointing are still great strategies for regaining map control or rushing hives.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of people complain about Veil. But its simply because they haven't adjusted to the tactics necessary to win on the map -- the same strategies that will deliver victory on Tram or Docking won't necessarily do the same on Veil.
Once there's enough time for the appropriate strategies to percolate to the Beta players, I think you will see a considerably more positive response to the map.
So the exo is basically too tall to pass that way and you can't climb ladders so it's impossible to go back. I managed to get out of here by jumping on another marine but you can't get out of here alone.
Comments
It's actually our pleasure. Heard you working on another maps. Hope to see your another new gorgeous maps anytime soon!
I'm curious about the 5th tech point though. Do you plan to have one, or will this map be 4 tech points only? Because if so, there won't be a full end-game, with the current tech-tree.
I'd also like to know about the changes to skylights and topo. Were they deemed necessary after playtesting, or was this just personal preference? Also, while i do like the new system waypointing, i loved that area in ns1, too. Any comments on why you diverged from the original layout in these three areas?
Really great work, can't wait to get home and test it on a pub. I only had the time to have a quick runthrough yet.
I'm curious about the 5th tech point though. Do you plan to have one, or will this map be 4 tech points only? Because if so, there won't be a full end-game, with the current tech-tree.
I'd also like to know about the changes to skylights and topo. Were they deemed necessary after playtesting, or was this just personal preference? Also, while i do like the new system waypointing, i loved that area in ns1, too. Any comments on why you diverged from the original layout in these three areas?
Really great work, can't wait to get home and test it on a pub. I only had the time to have a quick runthrough yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No plans to change the map from it's current incarnation at this time. I'd rather call it a year, hehe. I think the map will surprise many with how flexible and wise some of the changes made have been.
West Skylights was made out of gameplay concerns about the narrow channel leading into West Junction, quite a few months ago. Topo was more of a superficial change except for the upper vents, which are not too consequential. System Waypointing and C-12 were necessary to change in order to give Aliens more of a fighting chance, in the first alpha versions of the map it was quite Marine-sided, and may still be so, slightly, even with just the lonely tech point in command.
I really like the changes and think they'll suit ns2 very well. I was just curious what motivated them. Thanks for clarifying.
I can understand that you want to move on now, and the map certainly is finished and polished.
I'm just wondering about the lack of a fifth tech point. UWE certainly is aware of it, since they helped you out, i guess. So are there any plans to remove the need for a second CS for marines? Or enable aliens to get third hive abilities on 2 hives?
consider this a thank you
<img src="http://unholidaycards.com/choo-front-pre.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
jk <3
Main hive Sub-Sector
Cysts to Overlook RT: 5
Cysts to Cargo RT: 9
Cysts to NanoGrid Status RTs: 8
Cysts from Overlook RT to West Skylights RT: 5 (doesn't make sense in early game, marine base is always to close)
Main hive Cargo
Cysts to NanoGrid Status RTs: 8
Cysts to Pipe Junction RT: 12* (Through Maintenance)
Cysts to Pipe Junction RT: 11 (Through The Dome)
Cysts to Emergency Nozzle RT: 9
*Although there seems to be a bug, in the loop in front of the hive is a opening where a box is placed but the cysts can't be placed in the opening or behind it, i have to build completely through the loop. If you know what i mean :?)
Main hive Pipe Junction:
Cysts to Emergency Nozzle RT: 5
Cysts from Emergency Nozzle to NanoGrid Status RTs: 7
Cysts from Emergency Nozzle to Topographical Analysis RTs: 6 (doesn't make sense in early game, marine base is always to close)
Cysts to Cargo RT: 11 (through Maintenance)
If i compare this to the distances on other maps like ns2_summit we can see that the distance is in most cases 5-6 Cysts from RT to RT node.
Main hive Flight Control:
Cysts to Crevice RT: 5
Cysts to Computer Lab RT: 5
Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 7
Cysts from Crevice RT to Atrium RT: 7
Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Sub-Access RT: 5
Main hive Atrium:
Cysts to Crevice RT: 6*
Cysts to Reactor Core RT: 5
Cysts from Crevice RT to Flight Control RT: 6
Cysts from Crevice RT to Cross Roads RT: 7
Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Data Core RT: 8
Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Cross Roads RT: 7
*I could not build Cysts at the new stair exit of atrium, could be shorter if they fix this.
Main hive Data Core:
Cysts to Ventilation RT: 5
Cysts to Reactor Core RT: 6
Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 8 (through Glass Hallway)
Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 8 (through Pipe Junction)
Cysts from Ventilation RT to Sub Access RT: 6
Cysts from Reactor Core RT to Atrium RT: 6
Main hive Sub Access:
Cysts to Ventilation RT: 5
Cysts to Computer Lab RT: 5
Cysts to Cross Roads RT: 11 (through Maintenance)
Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Cross Roads RT: 6
Cysts from Computer Lab RT to Flight Control RT: 5
Cysts from Ventilation to Data Core RT: 6
To sum this up. Pipe Junction and Sub-Sector have a RT which is connectable with a fair cysts number. Cargo doesn't have this. The cysts required to NanoGrid Status is higher but it gives access to 2 RTs so i think it is fair. The numbers to reach the RT node of a other hive location are ridiculous. It makes even more sense to drop a hive and grow it fast with 1-2 gorges then to invest 10+ cysts to reach another hive, at least in early game. This is a big problem in balancing since marines don't need to spend the extra res and they don't require the cyst chain to be able to build a RT. If the aren't able to rush to NanoGrid Status and are able to hold it they have a serious problem with nearly no res income.
I'm not sure how to fix it, but currently the map is just no fun as aliens.
The vents and all are nice, but if you can't use them they don't help much. It's just unbalanced that aliens need to work much better together on this map then on any other map. The marines can hold Topo and Skylights RT very easily and have 3 RTs. The aliens need to take some risk and/or invest a lot of resources.
If your main hive is Pipe Junction, the marines will have the West Side of the map which are 3 RTs (Skylights, Overlook an Sub-Sector) and they will also have Topo RT, 5 RTs total. Aliens need a lot of time to travel to the west side of the map to try to destroy their RTs. The Emergency RT is easily accessible for the aliens, but to reach Double RT they have to build their Cysts through east junction where the cysts can easily be destroyed by marines from Topo. And like i posted they need around 12 cysts to get the RT in Cargo.
How can you not use vents, did they get welded shut or something? Pub alien play is disorganized as anything because people just run off to go gorge or do whatever, when generally pub marine play has better teamwork (wierd). Thats why you need to work together more as aliens (to actually achieve somewhat of an even amount of teamwork) to win on veil.
Second, 7 cysts to cargo rt from c12 on pipe hive
8/8 to nano/c12 on cargo hive, and 9 to pipe from cargo... Higher cysts costs for cargo is fine IMO since your gaining a more central map location, with better inherent map control.
5th tech location is not needed in any way and only creates more problems, especially with there being no place to put it besides double (which makes that room way to important).
How can you not use vents, did they get welded shut or something? Pub alien play is disorganized as anything because people just run off to go gorge or do whatever, when generally pub marine play has better teamwork (wierd). Thats why you need to work together more as aliens (to actually achieve somewhat of an even amount of teamwork) to win on veil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The vents are obviously usable, the word i did chose wasn't the right one. I meant that vents don't help you every situation since you have to exit the vents to fight.
<!--quoteo(post=1968542:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second, 7 cysts to cargo rt from c12 on pipe hive
8/8 to nano/c12 on cargo hive, and 9 to pipe from cargo... Higher cysts costs for cargo is fine IMO since your gaining a more central map location, with better inherent map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know what do you want to say with the first part of this paragraph. I don't think that cargo gives a much better map control and we're talking about the RT not the hive. The RT in cargo gives you no map control. ;)
<!--quoteo(post=1968542:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5th tech location is not needed in any way and only creates more problems, especially with there being no place to put it besides double (which makes that room way to important).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you that a 5th tech point isn't necessary.
Most corridors and rooms of ns2_veil feel small and cramped. 'System Waypointing' is a prime example: Hologram in the center, multiple large pedestals in the already small room and very narrow exits. The western approach to the middle hive is also so small that when you enter it, the exit is already in your face. Those are just two examples, but in general most hallways are quite narrow with low ceilings and the rooms are also quite small.
Good job on preserving the overall layout and vent system though.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1546s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA...ailpage#t=1546s</a>
I dont think additional techpoint would be good at all, its already quite possible to drop a second hive with relative ease due to the size of the map. Lets definitely not turn this to another summit. I think the resource availability felt pretty good also. My main gripe would be just the huge size of some areas.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA&feature=player_detailpage#t=1546s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSs54EgX2eA...ailpage#t=1546s</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My apologies for letting this one get through. I could swear I looked into it. Oh well, it'll be fixed!
You really don't need to excuse yourself for this. I like the exo trap (until i don't jump in it myself)...
Besides that, this map is so full of "awesomeness" and nostalgia ... really good job! :)
Out of 10 matches, i saw 2 times the alien team winning... on different days.
NS2 gameplay doesnt fit in ns1-map-design.
I really angry right now...
Put a phase gate with a powerpack in cargo at the south border and
an ovservatory and its impossible to lose as marines.
Phase gates = instant win (if marine team is not completly bad).
Hopefully there will be some changes, atm the map will never be played in competitive matches, i guess.
More awfull than mineshaft... (Design and look is awesome, but its almost unplayable for aliens)
EDIT1: <a href="http://www.ns2stats.org/map/map/11" target="_blank">Win / Lose Ratio</a> says 56% win for aliens
Nevermind, but i never expected 56% win for aliens on this... what i saw, was much different.
One Question: Was the alien-speed in NS1 faster ? (some hallways are really, really long)
PS: was marine com 2-3 times and is was really easy to win... phase gate in nano-grid + secured 1 free hive location + scan / rush if hive on 2 free hive location. really hard for aliens to do anything without 2 hive (leap).
Once there's enough time for the appropriate strategies to percolate to the Beta players, I think you will see a considerably more positive response to the map.
<img src="http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3249/2012090800007.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
So the exo is basically too tall to pass that way and you can't climb ladders so it's impossible to go back. I managed to get out of here by jumping on another marine but you can't get out of here alone.