<!--quoteo(post=1861356:date=Jul 18 2011, 04:24 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 18 2011, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861356"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, that is not a skill-based movement system with a high skill ceiling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only difference between half-life engine bhop and what I'm proposing is that the jump-and-wiggle-like-you've-got-a-neurological-disorder part is automated. It's just like Tribes and skiing being automated in later sequels. The skill comes when you say "okay, I'm maneuverable as a skulk... now what do I *do* with it?" Unskilled players will use it to go faster in straight lines. Skilled players will use it to duck and dodge across railings, arc over players and nail them in the butt, or skip past a sentry web and start chewing on things in a blind spot.
I'm all for adding air control and more maneuverability to lifeforms that should have (and would benefit from) that kind of movement. I'm completely against the control interface requiring me to enact a Mexican Hat Dance with mouse and strafing to use that maneuverability.
Again: HL/quake style bhop <i>looks retarded.</i> The kinds of maneuvers you can pull off with it, however, are cool. Implement it without requiring players to learn to jump around like morons in order to utilize it, and I'll welcome it with open arms.
Yes, we could make a smash key called "aim key". People would have to smash it to increase their aiming accuracy, and then you could ponder "what people could do with it". Great idea.
It is called skill-based movement system for a reason.
We're not big fans of the "spam jump while in combat" marines either. We want marines to feel and look like marines! Let's leave the hopping to the aliens.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.
<!--quoteo(post=1861647:date=Jul 19 2011, 05:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 19 2011, 05:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not big fans of the "spam jump while in combat" marines either. We want marines to feel and look like marines! Let's leave the hopping to the aliens.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1861647:date=Jul 19 2011, 06:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 19 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never liked being punished for jumping, by being slowed down. NS1 did this, and so did CS classic (no idea about CS:S).
Personally I would have preferred a viewport bounce, causing a huge inaccuracy for some time. Although that would allow for you to occupy the skulk for just a bit longer, enough for your mates to shoot the skulk on your tail. so I can see why the jumping penalty was chosen.
But I'm odd in the way that playing as a skulk, jumping marines never bothered me that much. Unless there is some kind of hitbox issue I am unaware of, which makes it harder for skulks to hit a jumping marine? Just assume the marine will jump, and aim your bitegun higher.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1861647:date=Jul 19 2011, 12:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 19 2011, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not big fans of the "spam jump while in combat" marines either. We want marines to feel and look like marines! Let's leave the hopping to the aliens.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1861584:date=Jul 19 2011, 05:40 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Jul 19 2011, 05:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is called skill-based movement system for a reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because imitating <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia" target="_blank">tardive dyskinesia</a> is a skill? Sure, I'll go with that. Neurological disorders for all!
<!--quoteo(post=1861710:date=Jul 19 2011, 09:38 PM:name=Kalabalana)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Jul 19 2011, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The jumping gorge is also a pretty big issue, it's snap jumping makes it at least 2-3 times as hard to hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Jumping with skulk is the same too. It makes you harder to hit because the movement is more unpredictable.
I really don't see the problem with jumping, by jumping all you are doing is making your movement more predictable. If someone jumps you can tell where they are going to land, on both sides. Especially marines. I really don't see why its difficult to just bite as they come down. They can't move. It is more of an issue with aliens because they are faster and airstrafe comes into the equation.
<!--quoteo(post=1861898:date=Jul 20 2011, 01:00 PM:name=Mould)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mould @ Jul 20 2011, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861898"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone jumps you can tell where they are going to land, on both sides. Especially marines. I really don't see why its difficult to just bite as they come down.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> good luck biting with a shotgun blast in your head. jumping disorients most people, and those who manage to predict the movement and bite once you land gets about 1 hit before they have to look where you are going to land again. gives you plenty of time simply kill the skulk while in air.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1861727:date=Jul 19 2011, 02:35 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jul 19 2011, 02:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861727"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed. Jumping with skulk is the same too. It makes you harder to hit because the movement is more unpredictable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I recently discovered the (painful) down side to jumping as a Skulk. Rifle butt knockback hurts! But the Rifle bug (where the melee attack sometimes refuses to work for a second) got me killed a few times as a Marine.
In short, the current misleading jumping animations, low client performance (low FPS), and low server performance (tick rate and update rate) are the major contributor to the "pogo jumping" problem.
<!--quoteo(post=1861414:date=Jul 18 2011, 03:14 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jul 18 2011, 03:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861414"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Timing as a skill is nothing to be sneered at (personally I'm pretty proud of not really needing a jump script or binding mwheel to +jump to do ok at bunnyhopping), but not enough on its own.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I don't mind if they require good timing to nail the jumps (as a small part of the skill as mentioned) even if I'm absolutely horrid at it. However, at that point I want the game performance to be razor sharp and give me the chance to consistently time precise chained jumps regarless of whether I'm doing that on an empty server or on a 120-ping 32 player meat grinder with a huge fight going on. Right now I'm not completely confident we get to that point anytime soon enough for timing to be a core gameplay element.
Also, things like 3jump scripts and mwheel jump should be blocked at that point, preferrably any macro driven spam too. Otherwise it's most likely going to be either inaccessibility or huge whine bait (think of NS1 blockscripts).
Long story short: Only build a skill element out of timing if the game can actually provide everything you need to satisfyingly and consistently practise and perform it. Otherwise it's a strict no.
<!--quoteo(post=1861647:date=Jul 19 2011, 06:52 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jul 19 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're not big fans of the "spam jump while in combat" marines either. We want marines to feel and look like marines! Let's leave the hopping to the aliens.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> as i posted before, it won't remove the incentive to do it in the first place - it can still be used to evade skulkbites. reduce jumpheight, but add "step on over", so marines can cross over hand railings and such. even skulks, if the troops feel gutsy.
<!--quoteo(post=1860644:date=Jul 14 2011, 04:17 PM:name=Agiel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Agiel @ Jul 14 2011, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I'm still of the opinion that marines should either not be able to fire while in the air or have a jump cooldown after landing, it seems the discussion has shifted away from marine jump spam to alien bunny hopping so let me say something about that.
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Edit: Reworked the examples a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need more posts like this. Well thought-out, well-explained ideas on how to improve the game. Thank you.
I still feel the marines shouldn't be able to fire in mid-air. I know lots will disagree but I really think it'd make the game a lot better without marines jumping around in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1870426:date=Aug 22 2011, 12:54 AM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 22 2011, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still feel the marines shouldn't be able to fire in mid-air. I know lots will disagree but I really think it'd make the game a lot better without marines jumping around in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1870426:date=Aug 21 2011, 11:54 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Aug 21 2011, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still feel the marines shouldn't be able to fire in mid-air. I know lots will disagree but I really think it'd make the game a lot better without marines jumping around in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Something like how it is in Day of Defeat would be ideal. Not so effective against a few marines though as while the person you are attacking is unable to fire, he would still jump spam to avoid being bit while his team mates pick you off. A stamina bar would be ideal. First jump would get you over a railing or whatever but then a very short jump then no jump at all. Or maybe both of the above.
A system where marines could mantle objects would be perfect and no jump at all but as the engine is new I don't know if that would be possible.
Lol, yes and I loved and still do love NS1 as much as anyone. Still play it sometimes and I wouldn't change anything about it. Thing is, NS2 is a complete, brand new game and as far as I am concerned I like the direction it is heading. Its slower paced more tactical game play suits me fine and as such I don't think the jump spam has a place in the game at all. Just my opinion, know one has to agree with it as I suspect many wont.
I don't want a stamina bar or to remove jumping or replace it with a mantle manoeuvre. In most games I've played these types of mantles are static animations that you get stuck in and can't do anything. The good thing about jumping is it's very responsive and the player has complete control over it.
I just think that jumping while shooting shouldn't be in the game to stop jumping in combat. Jumping is fine to move around the level but I don't like it being used to avoid being bitten. It looks daft, I'd rather marines stay on the ground in combat.
Put a 0.5 sec delay between jumps so if feels like actual jumping. Done.
If you take away the ability to fire while jumping I will cut you. Jumping and squeezing a trigger isn't hard. At all.
And saying we don't need to jump and shoot is like saying skulk don't need to wall walk. You need to be sneaky little ######s and attack us from odd angles and I need to be able to jump to save my shins, which are apparently very fragile and tied directly to continued existence among the living.
NS1 did it right, a slow-down upon landing on a surface that is of the same (or lower) height as the one the player just jumped from. You can still do an evade-jump, but curtails hopping around like an idiot constantly. It also keeps intact the ability of some movement-acrobatics, and the ability to bunnyhop just a little bit sometimes, which I like.
Pretty much all the suggestions made on this last page are a big no-no to be honest. Anything that causes your jump-button to NOT respond when you're pushing it is just terrible. I didn't think the animosity to NS1's movement-mechanics was this significant, or perhaps all the NS1-vets just decided to piss off for some reason.
Jumping is the only way to get distance between a Marine and a Alien especially if the Marine got surprised by a cloaked Skulk. Reducing the height will mean all the Railings and boxes need to be adjusted in height then so that is a bad idea (my opinion). Jump spam already results in a slowdown and I never saw jumpspam again. But the 2 things that needs to be changed on Marineside about the Jump are:
•Duckjump •Strafing in midair
Jumping at the right moment as Marine prevents often a 2. Bite hit and that, because of cloak, is absoluetly fair and needed. I don't know how many times I've get bitten from nowhere jumping to the side and blowing that skulk up with SG.
<!--quoteo(post=1870453:date=Aug 21 2011, 09:58 PM:name=PatriotBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PatriotBob @ Aug 21 2011, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you take away the ability to fire while jumping I will cut you. Jumping and squeezing a trigger isn't hard. At all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There should be a rule that only people who have actually fired real guns are allowed to post suggestions in this thread. Jumping while firing an assault rifle is actually pretty damn hard, but technically feasible - if your only goal is to look like an idiot and waste ammunition. Doing that while aiming is ###### IMPOSSIBLE.
I find it ridiculous that the ability to jump and shoot at the same time was ever in the game to begin with. You aren't Master Chief, this isn't Halo (as much as I do actually enjoy the Halo games). It needs to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1861918:date=Jul 20 2011, 08:34 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 20 2011, 08:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->as i posted before, it won't remove the incentive to do it in the first place - it can still be used to evade skulkbites. reduce jumpheight, but add "step on over", so marines can cross over hand railings and such. even skulks, if the troops feel gutsy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This "step on over" thing you speak of has never been pulled off in a multiplayer PC game. I believe it was created for consoles and their lack of button combinations. A total no no in fast paced combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1870436:date=Aug 21 2011, 05:33 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Aug 21 2011, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. Something like how it is in Day of Defeat would be ideal. Not so effective against a few marines though as while the person you are attacking is unable to fire, he would still jump spam to avoid being bit while his team mates pick you off. A stamina bar would be ideal. First jump would get you over a railing or whatever but then a very short jump then no jump at all. Or maybe both of the above.
A system where marines could mantle objects would be perfect and no jump at all but as the engine is new I don't know if that would be possible.
Cheers
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hated when DoD implemented their stamina bar and quit pretty much that patch (though a lot more changed than just the stamina bar).
<!--quoteo(post=1870440:date=Aug 21 2011, 05:51 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Aug 21 2011, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, yes and I loved and still do love NS1 as much as anyone. Still play it sometimes and I wouldn't change anything about it. Thing is, NS2 is a complete, brand new game and as far as I am concerned I like the direction it is heading. Its slower paced more tactical game play suits me fine and as such I don't think the jump spam has a place in the game at all. Just my opinion, know one has to agree with it as I suspect many wont.
Cheers
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to disagree but NS2 isnt a completely brand new game. It is a sequel and like every good sequel (which even in Hollywood you can count good sequels on one hand) you take stuff from the original that worked and then add new content while keeping the core game in tact. The slower pace you speak of is only because we have only half the game. Res gain is out of whack and will be fixed. NS had a good pace and still does. If they could replicate the feel of NS with new features and some minor tweaks it will be a success.
<!--quoteo(post=1870455:date=Aug 21 2011, 09:33 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 21 2011, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 did it right, a slow-down upon landing on a surface that is of the same (or lower) height as the one the player just jumped from. You can still do an evade-jump, but curtails hopping around like an idiot constantly. It also keeps intact the ability of some movement-acrobatics, and the ability to bunnyhop just a little bit sometimes, which I like.
Pretty much all the suggestions made on this last page are a big no-no to be honest. Anything that causes your jump-button to NOT respond when you're pushing it is just terrible. I didn't think the animosity to NS1's movement-mechanics was this significant, or perhaps all the NS1-vets just decided to piss off for some reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
The only difference between half-life engine bhop and what I'm proposing is that the jump-and-wiggle-like-you've-got-a-neurological-disorder part is automated. It's just like Tribes and skiing being automated in later sequels. The skill comes when you say "okay, I'm maneuverable as a skulk... now what do I *do* with it?" Unskilled players will use it to go faster in straight lines. Skilled players will use it to duck and dodge across railings, arc over players and nail them in the butt, or skip past a sentry web and start chewing on things in a blind spot.
I'm all for adding air control and more maneuverability to lifeforms that should have (and would benefit from) that kind of movement. I'm completely against the control interface requiring me to enact a Mexican Hat Dance with mouse and strafing to use that maneuverability.
Again: HL/quake style bhop <i>looks retarded.</i> The kinds of maneuvers you can pull off with it, however, are cool. Implement it without requiring players to learn to jump around like morons in order to utilize it, and I'll welcome it with open arms.
It is called skill-based movement system for a reason.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yay! :D
I never liked being punished for jumping, by being slowed down. NS1 did this, and so did CS classic (no idea about CS:S).
Personally I would have preferred a viewport bounce, causing a huge inaccuracy for some time.
Although that would allow for you to occupy the skulk for just a bit longer, enough for your mates to shoot the skulk on your tail. so I can see why the jumping penalty was chosen.
But I'm odd in the way that playing as a skulk, jumping marines never bothered me that much.
Unless there is some kind of hitbox issue I am unaware of, which makes it harder for skulks to hit a jumping marine?
Just assume the marine will jump, and aim your bitegun higher.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very very excite.
Because imitating <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia" target="_blank">tardive dyskinesia</a> is a skill? Sure, I'll go with that. Neurological disorders for all!
Agreed. Jumping with skulk is the same too. It makes you harder to hit because the movement is more unpredictable.
good luck biting with a shotgun blast in your head.
jumping disorients most people, and those who manage to predict the movement and bite once you land gets about 1 hit before they have to look where you are going to land again. gives you plenty of time simply kill the skulk while in air.
I recently discovered the (painful) down side to jumping as a Skulk. Rifle butt knockback hurts! But the Rifle bug (where the melee attack sometimes refuses to work for a second) got me killed a few times as a Marine.
In short, the current misleading jumping animations, low client performance (low FPS), and low server performance (tick rate and update rate) are the major contributor to the "pogo jumping" problem.
Personally I don't mind if they require good timing to nail the jumps (as a small part of the skill as mentioned) even if I'm absolutely horrid at it. However, at that point I want the game performance to be razor sharp and give me the chance to consistently time precise chained jumps regarless of whether I'm doing that on an empty server or on a 120-ping 32 player meat grinder with a huge fight going on. Right now I'm not completely confident we get to that point anytime soon enough for timing to be a core gameplay element.
Also, things like 3jump scripts and mwheel jump should be blocked at that point, preferrably any macro driven spam too. Otherwise it's most likely going to be either inaccessibility or huge whine bait (think of NS1 blockscripts).
Long story short: Only build a skill element out of timing if the game can actually provide everything you need to satisfyingly and consistently practise and perform it. Otherwise it's a strict no.
I'm experimenting with a basic max speed slowdown after each successive jump, ala NS1. It'll probably make it into 181.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
as i posted before, it won't remove the incentive to do it in the first place - it can still be used to evade skulkbites.
reduce jumpheight, but add "step on over", so marines can cross over hand railings and such. even skulks, if the troops feel gutsy.
I was totally for alien bunny hopping in NS1 and I'd very much like to see a skill based movement scheme in NS2. However, bunny hopping in NS1 made sense back then because Quake was still a very popular game and a lot of people knew how to bunny hop. Nowadays I'd much rather like to see a more thought out system designed from the ground up. I'd propose the following.
First off I'd like them to make the basic jump behaviour more like Quake, ie. still one click per jump but holding the jump button down makes you jump as soon as you land without losing any speed. This way we won't need to bind jump to the mouse wheel and I wouldn't have to buy new mice every other month.
Now I'm not a huge fan of air control for creatures without wings so instead I propose something like dash/dodge from Warsow. It's basically a low jump which propels you in the direction you're facing with your current speed. Combine this with leap and you'd also gain a bit of speed.
Here's an example of how it would work in practice. To get some speed you start off with a leap. In order to retain the speed you need to avoid ground friction by jumping as soon as you hit the ground (made easier by the ability to press and hold the jump button before you land). To change direction you use leap again. For each leap you'd gain a bit of speed (presumably up to a limit).
To promote the use of the environment a normal jump off a wall would bounce you off it like a billiard ball, so with some practice you wouldn't need to use leap to take corners. There could also be a speed penalty if the angle is too large when trying to change direction, so you'd have to use walls in certain situations. For example, you wouldn't be able to turn on a dime on a flat surface, but jump towards a wall, hold crouch to avoid sticking to it, press and hold jump (or leap and aim where you want to go) and you'd fly away in the opposite direction while retaining the speed.
Edit: Reworked the examples a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need more posts like this. Well thought-out, well-explained ideas on how to improve the game. Thank you.
Vote +1
I agree. Something like how it is in Day of Defeat would be ideal. Not so effective against a few marines though as while the person you are attacking is unable to fire, he would still jump spam to avoid being bit while his team mates pick you off. A stamina bar would be ideal. First jump would get you over a railing or whatever but then a very short jump then no jump at all. Or maybe both of the above.
A system where marines could mantle objects would be perfect and no jump at all but as the engine is new I don't know if that would be possible.
Cheers
Sal
Cheers
Sal
I just think that jumping while shooting shouldn't be in the game to stop jumping in combat. Jumping is fine to move around the level but I don't like it being used to avoid being bitten. It looks daft, I'd rather marines stay on the ground in combat.
I think a more severe momentum penalty (a la CS) may go a long way to solving this.
If you take away the ability to fire while jumping I will cut you. Jumping and squeezing a trigger isn't hard. At all.
And saying we don't need to jump and shoot is like saying skulk don't need to wall walk. You need to be sneaky little ######s and attack us from odd angles and I need to be able to jump to save my shins, which are apparently very fragile and tied directly to continued existence among the living.
Jumping height needs to be reduced for jumping in quick succession.
Pretty much all the suggestions made on this last page are a big no-no to be honest. Anything that causes your jump-button to NOT respond when you're pushing it is just terrible. I didn't think the animosity to NS1's movement-mechanics was this significant, or perhaps all the NS1-vets just decided to piss off for some reason.
Jump spam already results in a slowdown and I never saw jumpspam again. But the 2 things that needs to be changed on Marineside about the Jump are:
•Duckjump
•Strafing in midair
Jumping at the right moment as Marine prevents often a 2. Bite hit and that, because of cloak, is absoluetly fair and needed. I don't know how many times I've get bitten from nowhere jumping to the side and blowing that skulk up with SG.
There should be a rule that only people who have actually fired real guns are allowed to post suggestions in this thread. Jumping while firing an assault rifle is actually pretty damn hard, but technically feasible - if your only goal is to look like an idiot and waste ammunition. Doing that while aiming is ###### IMPOSSIBLE.
I find it ridiculous that the ability to jump and shoot at the same time was ever in the game to begin with. You aren't Master Chief, this isn't Halo (as much as I do actually enjoy the Halo games). It needs to go.
reduce jumpheight, but add "step on over", so marines can cross over hand railings and such. even skulks, if the troops feel gutsy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This "step on over" thing you speak of has never been pulled off in a multiplayer PC game. I believe it was created for consoles and their lack of button combinations. A total no no in fast paced combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1870436:date=Aug 21 2011, 05:33 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Aug 21 2011, 05:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree. Something like how it is in Day of Defeat would be ideal. Not so effective against a few marines though as while the person you are attacking is unable to fire, he would still jump spam to avoid being bit while his team mates pick you off. A stamina bar would be ideal. First jump would get you over a railing or whatever but then a very short jump then no jump at all. Or maybe both of the above.
A system where marines could mantle objects would be perfect and no jump at all but as the engine is new I don't know if that would be possible.
Cheers
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hated when DoD implemented their stamina bar and quit pretty much that patch (though a lot more changed than just the stamina bar).
<!--quoteo(post=1870440:date=Aug 21 2011, 05:51 PM:name=Salraine_Chi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Aug 21 2011, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lol, yes and I loved and still do love NS1 as much as anyone. Still play it sometimes and I wouldn't change anything about it. Thing is, NS2 is a complete, brand new game and as far as I am concerned I like the direction it is heading. Its slower paced more tactical game play suits me fine and as such I don't think the jump spam has a place in the game at all. Just my opinion, know one has to agree with it as I suspect many wont.
Cheers
Sal<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to disagree but NS2 isnt a completely brand new game. It is a sequel and like every good sequel (which even in Hollywood you can count good sequels on one hand) you take stuff from the original that worked and then add new content while keeping the core game in tact. The slower pace you speak of is only because we have only half the game. Res gain is out of whack and will be fixed. NS had a good pace and still does. If they could replicate the feel of NS with new features and some minor tweaks it will be a success.
<!--quoteo(post=1870455:date=Aug 21 2011, 09:33 PM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Aug 21 2011, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870455"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 did it right, a slow-down upon landing on a surface that is of the same (or lower) height as the one the player just jumped from. You can still do an evade-jump, but curtails hopping around like an idiot constantly. It also keeps intact the ability of some movement-acrobatics, and the ability to bunnyhop just a little bit sometimes, which I like.
Pretty much all the suggestions made on this last page are a big no-no to be honest. Anything that causes your jump-button to NOT respond when you're pushing it is just terrible. I didn't think the animosity to NS1's movement-mechanics was this significant, or perhaps all the NS1-vets just decided to piss off for some reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1