<!--quoteo(post=1851473:date=Jun 10 2011, 03:00 PM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Jun 10 2011, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if crossroads gets in trouble he can always activate it on again and get marines there.
All this isnt necessary tho which is what i mean that ns1 phase gates were fine and it wasnt a big deal. (like how people are making it out to be now)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, with more than 3 phasegates things got very slow and annoying in NS1, one of the major problems with pgs imo.
I agree 100% with the idea that comm can just disable 'unimportant' gates temporarily though, sounds like a perfect solution without adding a lot of unnecessary complexity.
<!--quoteo(post=1851473:date=Jun 10 2011, 08:00 AM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Jun 10 2011, 08:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... Lets take summit. Marine start has a phase gate. Crossroads has a phase gate. And now a 3rd phase gate has just gone up at generator for a hive rush!!! ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Three PG's case works for blue-red color side idea even better!
After the 3'th PG is up ... com just scream to mic / give command: "RED PG" .. and everybody will know that 3'th PG is up and they are needed there.
of course teleport between PGs will cycle from last to first (and vice versa) <img src="http://i.imgur.com/rdgsT.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As I think about it ... there is additional one requirement: The phase gate need to be placed with some offset from walls (than marines will not teleport into walls), this can be done by changing placeholder for commander, and then add there red way indicator instead of only blue one... <img src="http://i.imgur.com/p91Tc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=1851475:date=Jun 11 2011, 01:16 AM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Jun 11 2011, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno, with more than 3 phasegates things got very slow and annoying in NS1, one of the major problems with pgs imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that i kind of agree with, but now its not standing next to a phase spamming 'use' key. Its just a simple matter of walking through one then taking a few steps back through it again.
And zycar- Lets say theres 4 or even 6 phase gates, If you have 3 marines at the first one, and then 3 marines at the 4th one, and people need to be at the 2nd or 3rd one. what good is yelling red phase gates to everyone, That still wont get people where they need to be 1st phase. Thus recreating the problem about not being where you want to go. I can just imagine the amount of ######ing around people will have to do /walks through red portal "?" walks through red one again "?" runs around phase gate to go through blue "?" /enters blue "KWTF?"
Sure it looks straight forward on paper, now think a little harder and imagine it. No ns2 experience at all, youre trying to get somewhere, every ones yelling OMG GET THERE. Seriously, forget it.
I say let the commander take control of it and organize it so marines go where _he_ (/she) wants them to go.
<!--quoteo(post=1851475:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:16 AM:name=marsvin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (marsvin @ Jun 10 2011, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dunno, with more than 3 phasegates things got very slow and annoying in NS1, one of the major problems with pgs imo.
I agree 100% with the idea that comm can just disable 'unimportant' gates temporarily though, sounds like a perfect solution without adding a lot of unnecessary complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I think it would be an excellent addition to add the ability to turn on/off phase gates. I was actually thinking about it last night when we had 4 gates up and getting back to base was such a fiasco...
I agree that letting the commander power them down individually is the most straightforward solution. That feature is really already in place due to power nodes so you just need a toggle for a specific structure.
<!--quoteo(post=1851485:date=Jun 10 2011, 10:08 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 10 2011, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To be honest I don't see a problem with the current PG implementation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you play NS1? Have you played with more than 3 phase gates? It gets messy when you are trying to get to a specific point fast. and to be honest none of the games have yet reached the headcount or franticness that they (and we) are shooting for.
That's what this discussion is trying resolve. So far I like the Blue and Red concept.
It keeps the chain (which is easier for the code to maintain) but allows for you to choose a direction on the chain.
I would like to even suggest that when you arrive they briefly show you the area name in text. Some fade away text that appears at the top of your hud. this would solidify someone telling you to go to 'Cafeteria' and you teleport, see it appear, and know to stop here.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1851498:date=Jun 10 2011, 07:50 AM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 10 2011, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like to even suggest that when you arrive they briefly show you the area name in text. Some fade away text that appears at the top of your hud. this would solidify someone telling you to go to 'Cafeteria' and you teleport, see it appear, and know to stop here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The text already appears on the upper left. Vanilla NS1 had the same problem. The solution was not to build more than 3 phase gates. Remember we're also going to have the new version of the obs beacon (when they fix it), that can be used for teleportation of the entire marine team to a trouble spot (not just marine start).
I like the idea of being able to toggle pg's powered and unpowered. I also think that to make pgs not teleport ppl who just nudge it with an elbow (easy to happen if you exit pg straight into combat), it should before teleporting you make sure that you havent exit the field on the same side as you entered it. If you want to go trough a blocking pg, without teleporting, I think holding use should make it not teleport you at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1851498:date=Jun 10 2011, 03:50 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Jun 10 2011, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you play NS1? Have you played with more than 3 phase gates? It gets messy when you are trying to get to a specific point fast. and to be honest none of the games have yet reached the headcount or franticness that they (and we) are shooting for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember there was a plugin that would let you select your destination when phasing. But it wasn't running on many servers IIRC. I always considered the "mess" a part of the intended design with the purpose of slowing down the speed at which large numbers of marines could relocate across the map.
<!--quoteo(post=1851602:date=Jun 10 2011, 09:58 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Jun 10 2011, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851602"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I remember there was a plugin that would let you select your destination when phasing. But it wasn't running on many servers IIRC. I always considered the "mess" a part of the intended design with the purpose of slowing down the speed at which large numbers of marines could relocate across the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that plugin didn't get used because it was very clunky, needing to press E and then looking for the number of the PG you needed usually ended up slowing you down more than just cycling through them.
There is something to be said for slowing down marines with a large number of gates, but the main problem is that cycling through gate after gate is just annoying gameplay wise. To discourage gate spam, if we go with the earlier suggestion any gate that's temporarily disabled would make easy pickings for a skulk. Maybe even introduce a small 'power up' period for deactivated gates to discourage it further.
Alternatively you could stop imposing easily solvable control limitations on people and do something like make phase gates into linked colour coded pairs, that way you always know where you're going.
<!--quoteo(post=1851409:date=Jun 9 2011, 11:28 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jun 9 2011, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1851409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is already a delay(or it knows if you stepped out of it => need to go out of minimum range until it works again), and you can setup which way each pg faces. you get an arc, similar to the sentry on placement. Not sure anymore which way it is, but i think it was that way: E.g. place the arc where ppl go in, place the other arc(on the 2nd pg) where ppl go out. (so as long as you go into a pg on the side with the arc, you always look into the right direction when you come out)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately thats not how it works currently.
Its arc in, no arc out, but I agree it should be arc in, act out. Thats what makes sense. To test this, place two PGs in a room perpendicular to each other. Then when you run into the PGs stop right as you hit to the blue portal. This will let the PG 'push' you out the direction your suppose to. Your movement will sometimes negate the small push the PG gives you as you cross the portal, which is why you need to stop. If you line up two portals parallel two each other (either facing away or at each other), it will seem as though it was arc in, arc out. However, you'll see if you rotate one PG so that they are both facing the same direction, the exact same results occur ....this is due to the retention of player direction.
When you phase through, you retain the direction you were going originally facing. So if you ran into the PG facing east, you'll come out facing east....<b>regardless </b>of how either PG was placed. This is whats causing the disorientation, <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->and might even be a bug.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The commander will place the PG thinking players will come out in the direction of the arc, but instead will be facing a wall or something.
After doing some testing last night in live servers, I realize that this retention of player direction is the most important factor to consider when placing PGs. In fact you can completely disregard where the blue arc is facing. If you want your players to come out facing east, make sure they run into the 1st PG facing east (it starts getting messy once you place the 3rd). This is completely unintuitive and misleading to the commander, who will assume its 'arc in, arc out'...or at very least that the arc somehow determines the direction the players come out.
ZycaR's diagram is identical to the ideal system I think PGs should behave like. I also like the ability to disable currently unused PG. When reactivated they should be put at the end of the cycle, which would be a simple way to allow the commander to reassign the order of the PGs.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Short question about Phase Gates: Can MACs and ARCs go through? If not I feel they should be able to (though I imagine this would be difficult to implement).
Comments
All this isnt necessary tho which is what i mean that ns1 phase gates were fine and it wasnt a big deal. (like how people are making it out to be now)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno, with more than 3 phasegates things got very slow and annoying in NS1, one of the major problems with pgs imo.
I agree 100% with the idea that comm can just disable 'unimportant' gates temporarily though, sounds like a perfect solution without adding a lot of unnecessary complexity.
Lets take summit. Marine start has a phase gate. Crossroads has a phase gate. And now a 3rd phase gate has just gone up at generator for a hive rush!!!
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Three PG's case works for blue-red color side idea even better!
After the 3'th PG is up ... com just scream to mic / give command: "RED PG"
.. and everybody will know that 3'th PG is up and they are needed there.
of course teleport between PGs will cycle from last to first (and vice versa)
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/rdgsT.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As I think about it ... there is additional one requirement: The phase gate need to be placed with some offset from walls (than marines will not teleport into walls), this can be done by changing placeholder for commander, and then add there red way indicator instead of only blue one...
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/p91Tc.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Yeah that i kind of agree with, but now its not standing next to a phase spamming 'use' key. Its just a simple matter of walking through one then taking a few steps back through it again.
And zycar- Lets say theres 4 or even 6 phase gates, If you have 3 marines at the first one, and then 3 marines at the 4th one, and people need to be at the 2nd or 3rd one. what good is yelling red phase gates to everyone, That still wont get people where they need to be 1st phase. Thus recreating the problem about not being where you want to go.
I can just imagine the amount of ######ing around people will have to do
/walks through red portal "?" walks through red one again "?" runs around phase gate to go through blue "?" /enters blue "KWTF?"
Sure it looks straight forward on paper, now think a little harder and imagine it. No ns2 experience at all, youre trying to get somewhere, every ones yelling OMG GET THERE. Seriously, forget it.
I say let the commander take control of it and organize it so marines go where _he_ (/she) wants them to go.
I agree 100% with the idea that comm can just disable 'unimportant' gates temporarily though, sounds like a perfect solution without adding a lot of unnecessary complexity.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, I think it would be an excellent addition to add the ability to turn on/off phase gates. I was actually thinking about it last night when we had 4 gates up and getting back to base was such a fiasco...
Did you play NS1?
Have you played with more than 3 phase gates?
It gets messy when you are trying to get to a specific point fast.
and to be honest none of the games have yet reached the headcount or franticness that they (and we) are shooting for.
That's what this discussion is trying resolve.
So far I like the Blue and Red concept.
It keeps the chain (which is easier for the code to maintain)
but allows for you to choose a direction on the chain.
I would like to even suggest that when you arrive they briefly show you the area name in text.
Some fade away text that appears at the top of your hud.
this would solidify someone telling you to go to 'Cafeteria'
and you teleport, see it appear, and know to stop here.
Some fade away text that appears at the top of your hud.
this would solidify someone telling you to go to 'Cafeteria'
and you teleport, see it appear, and know to stop here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The text already appears on the upper left. Vanilla NS1 had the same problem. The solution was not to build more than 3 phase gates. Remember we're also going to have the new version of the obs beacon (when they fix it), that can be used for teleportation of the entire marine team to a trouble spot (not just marine start).
I also think that to make pgs not teleport ppl who just nudge it with an elbow (easy to happen if you exit pg straight into combat), it should before teleporting you make sure that you havent exit the field on the same side as you entered it.
If you want to go trough a blocking pg, without teleporting, I think holding use should make it not teleport you at all.
Have you played with more than 3 phase gates?
It gets messy when you are trying to get to a specific point fast.
and to be honest none of the games have yet reached the headcount or franticness that they (and we) are shooting for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember there was a plugin that would let you select your destination when phasing. But it wasn't running on many servers IIRC. I always considered the "mess" a part of the intended design with the purpose of slowing down the speed at which large numbers of marines could relocate across the map.
Yeah that plugin didn't get used because it was very clunky, needing to press E and then looking for the number of the PG you needed usually ended up slowing you down more than just cycling through them.
There is something to be said for slowing down marines with a large number of gates, but the main problem is that cycling through gate after gate is just annoying gameplay wise. To discourage gate spam, if we go with the earlier suggestion any gate that's temporarily disabled would make easy pickings for a skulk. Maybe even introduce a small 'power up' period for deactivated gates to discourage it further.
Not sure anymore which way it is, but i think it was that way:
E.g. place the arc where ppl go in, place the other arc(on the 2nd pg) where ppl go out. (so as long as you go into a pg on the side with the arc, you always look into the right direction when you come out)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately thats not how it works currently.
Its arc in, no arc out, but I agree it should be arc in, act out. Thats what makes sense. To test this, place two PGs in a room perpendicular to each other. Then when you run into the PGs stop right as you hit to the blue portal. This will let the PG 'push' you out the direction your suppose to. Your movement will sometimes negate the small push the PG gives you as you cross the portal, which is why you need to stop. If you line up two portals parallel two each other (either facing away or at each other), it will seem as though it was arc in, arc out. However, you'll see if you rotate one PG so that they are both facing the same direction, the exact same results occur ....this is due to the retention of player direction.
When you phase through, you retain the direction you were going originally facing. So if you ran into the PG facing east, you'll come out facing east....<b>regardless </b>of how either PG was placed. This is whats causing the disorientation, <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->and might even be a bug.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> The commander will place the PG thinking players will come out in the direction of the arc, but instead will be facing a wall or something.
After doing some testing last night in live servers, I realize that this retention of player direction is the most important factor to consider when placing PGs. In fact you can completely disregard where the blue arc is facing. If you want your players to come out facing east, make sure they run into the 1st PG facing east (it starts getting messy once you place the 3rd). This is completely unintuitive and misleading to the commander, who will assume its 'arc in, arc out'...or at very least that the arc somehow determines the direction the players come out.
ZycaR's diagram is identical to the ideal system I think PGs should behave like. I also like the ability to disable currently unused PG. When reactivated they should be put at the end of the cycle, which would be a simple way to allow the commander to reassign the order of the PGs.