Turn activated structure abilities into passive ones.
l3lessed
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
So from a game design point, making commanders trigger structural abilities seems like a bad decision. I come to this conclusion from a number of points.
1. The chance a commander is going to be able to get to a conflict area, activate all the buildings useful abilities, and micro and macro manage everything else is very slim.
2. Structure abilities aren't being used really at all in game because of the small time frame a commander has to use them in.
3. The benefit to cost ratio is very high because the chance of using the abilities is narrowed down.
Here is my suggestion, turn all commander activated abilities into passive abilities that are continually emitted by the structure. The draw back and balancing mechanism for this is that each structure has to be upgraded individually. So if you want umbra emitted from a crag within a certain area, you have to research it from that one crag. Once you do though, that crag will continually ooze out umbra smoke covering the area in it. Same with fury, frenzy, and all other abilities. The ability numbers can be tweaked for balance.
This allows the commander to make strategic decisions on where to put certain abilities and structures according to the demands of the battlefield. It also completely removes the annoyance of having structures sitting around with energy stored up but never being used because either they are in the back of the battlefield or the commander is to busy to get to them. It will also make the kharaa infested area feel more alive, will make upgrading structures to mature so they have extra health all the more important, make the aliens feel more unique, and give a better connection between what the commander is doing and the aliens on the ground. This will also force marines to carry a larger variety of weapons to deal with the every shifting battlefield that changes based on the structures and abilities the commander uses in certain areas.
1. The chance a commander is going to be able to get to a conflict area, activate all the buildings useful abilities, and micro and macro manage everything else is very slim.
2. Structure abilities aren't being used really at all in game because of the small time frame a commander has to use them in.
3. The benefit to cost ratio is very high because the chance of using the abilities is narrowed down.
Here is my suggestion, turn all commander activated abilities into passive abilities that are continually emitted by the structure. The draw back and balancing mechanism for this is that each structure has to be upgraded individually. So if you want umbra emitted from a crag within a certain area, you have to research it from that one crag. Once you do though, that crag will continually ooze out umbra smoke covering the area in it. Same with fury, frenzy, and all other abilities. The ability numbers can be tweaked for balance.
This allows the commander to make strategic decisions on where to put certain abilities and structures according to the demands of the battlefield. It also completely removes the annoyance of having structures sitting around with energy stored up but never being used because either they are in the back of the battlefield or the commander is to busy to get to them. It will also make the kharaa infested area feel more alive, will make upgrading structures to mature so they have extra health all the more important, make the aliens feel more unique, and give a better connection between what the commander is doing and the aliens on the ground. This will also force marines to carry a larger variety of weapons to deal with the every shifting battlefield that changes based on the structures and abilities the commander uses in certain areas.
Comments
This just takes one of the more tedious and asinine duties of the alien commander and streamlines it so all he has to do is choose what ability he wants the structure to have for the rest of the game or until it dies, instead of having to continually baby sit every structure, every moment, of every game to insure he doesn't waste energy and an ability.
Also just because the marine commander operates a certain way doesn't mean the alien commander needs to be symmetrical.
I don't really see why it is so hard for you to use these abilities yourself, i agree that there must come a better notification system about when structures take damage, but i would bet money on that UWE already know this, and it will be adressed at some later point in the beta.
And if you made so these abilities like; umbra and fury deployed automaticly. Marines would be able to trigger them all the time and potentially waste the energy of the structure. So if a single marine first goes and uses all the energy of, lets say a Crag, and then he gets reinforcements. Now the crag has run empty of energy. And is taken down easily by bullets.
These abilities are very strong stategies, and if they are automated, they could be wasted at the wrong moment.
I don't really see that putting down medpacks/ammo is 'symmetrical' to deploying these abilities. I'm just saying the the amount of tasks for the commanders should be around the same for both sides.
These abilities are very strong stategies, and if they are automated, they could be wasted at the wrong moment.
I don't really see that putting down medpacks/ammo is 'symmetrical' to deploying these abilities. I'm just saying the the amount of tasks for the commanders should be around the same for both sides.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, you're completely miss understanding me. I'm not saying having the abilities activate when the structure takes damage or is attacked. I'm saying the structures should always emit whatever ability the commander has researched on it. I research umbra on a crag, it will continually, with or without being attacked, emit a cloud of umbra in the area. I know you're going to say that is too powerful, but if you consider the cost of upgrading each and every structure, the marines ability to use different weapons like grenades that aren't effected by umbra, and finally the ability to balance from that point on by changing numbers, it would work just fine.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->he skill of placing the structures doesn't take more then one second of your time, and the same with deploying these abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also if it is going to be so easy, why even make the commander bother with deploying the abilities if he is just going to do it anyways. It is a redundant task at this point. Also, defense structures are suppose to be a place it and forget it thing. If you have to continually go back to the structure to activate some ability, it mitigates one of the large reasons for having a defense structure. Lastly, placement of structures isn't a split second thing if you're doing it right. You need to consider the radius of the abilities, the layout of the room, the other structures within the area, the ease of marines to spot the structures, and so on.
Yep, you're right, that would be too overpowered. Still, my point was that deploying these abilities is the only thing alien commander have to do except expanding and upgrading. If they were constantly activated, it would make alien commanding very boring, and take absolutely no skill at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if it is going to be so easy, why even make the commander bother with deploying the abilities if he is just going to do it anyways. It is a redundant task at this point. Also, defense structures are suppose to be a place it and forget it thing. If you have to continually go back to the structure to activate some ability, it mitigates one of the large reasons for having a defense structure. Lastly, placement of structures isn't a split second thing if you're doing it right. You need to consider the radius of the abilities, the layout of the room, the other structures within the area, the ease of marines to spot the structures, and so on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say it is easy to exactly know when to deploy these abilities. It's not a redundant task, it's a important task for the alien commander, without these tasks it would become too easy to be alien commander. It would simply take no skill.
You only have to go there when its under attack. Deploying that defense mechanism at the right moment might just be what you need for your aliens to get there and save whatever the crag is defending. That doesn't make the structure bad, in such a sense where you wouldn't want it. No, exactly the opposite. You would want to deploy that umbra, when you want to. Not constantly, not automated.
If you have just a little experience commanding it's not hard to figure out the good placements, and that won't take you more than a second.
If you're a bad commander that's something else. Is that the reason for this topic? ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why even make the commander bother with deploying the abilities if he is just going to do it anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That just doesn't make any sense at all.
It feels quite rewarding when you team wins a game, especially when youre the commander. (in ns1 it did anyway)
Not what alien commander will feel that satisfaction of winning when everything is done for him? and i mean everything.
Having a discussion about possible game mechanics has very little to do with commanding abilities so take your ad hominen attacks somewhere else because they add nothing to an actual intelligent conversation. I feel, in their current state, structure abilities are under utilized. The amount of time they last, the amount of energy they cost, and the bonus they give is not that great. Usually aliens are outside the radius of umbra unless they're a lerk, and marines push enough that I'm constantly running out of energy on my structures. I have yet to be in a situation where a structure ability actually tipped the scale of the battle. Maybe my idea isn't the best solution, but in their current state, structure abilities aren't that great because they're tied down to a single location where aliens usually aren't and don't really make a difference. Maybe they just need a bigger area of affect or maybe they need to get rid of energy and just go to a standard cool down time frame. Either way, the battle field shifts way to much right now for them to have a large impact in their current form.
This would probably make buildings much more effective and less micro oriented, while still punishing players for not paying attention to their structures and simply letting them auto cast all day.
if you make too many things automated / passive, people will play only with temporary commanders. during intense battle situations you always will want to have every player on the field and only outside of such moments you need a comm for expanding.
That would also decrease the need for a commander. I don't think thats the right way to go. Maybe just make the abilities easier to use somehow, not automaticly.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like it if I could click on a crag once and have it spew out umbra until I clicked it again to make it stop. If I didn't ever make it stop, then it should simply run out of energy and become useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either one of these I feel is a good compromise between rewarding the commander for micro managing, but not forcing him to baby sit his structures. Although, I do personally like the second idea the best now. It would allow a commander to start a structure ability when combat in an area begins, move away for a moment to deal with something else, than come back and turn it off once things calm down again.
all i would agree with is simplify the gui, improve alert system etc.
This is absolutely the best idea.
Player mastery is an important part of the game, don't get me wrong. It's important for the commander to feel like he has an important, challenging role to play. But it is crucially important to separate value added challenge from rote challenge.
For example, it would be perfectly possible to make the alien commander have to manually click each resource tower and collect the resources manually. It would add to the challenge of being an alien commander, because it would divide his attention further. However, most of us are (correctly) loathe to this idea because it would simply be a cumbersome addition that doesn't make the commander feel more useful. The action doesn't directly add value to the team when it is manual, so it is better to automate that behavior and free the commander's mental resources for managing fights and expanding.
Harimau's idea is a simplification, and doesn't fully describe a scenario, but here's what I'm imagining he is suggesting:
Each alien structure would need to be upgraded individually. That means the commander has the important decision of deciding whether to spend his resources protecting his hives or building a frontline, rarely will he have resources to do both.
Each structure with an ability like Umbra will have an energy meter, and each casting of Umbra will deplete that meter to some extent. Abilities can be manually triggered with a left click, or set to autocast with a right click. When autocast, the building will determine whether it is necessary to use the ability (for example, if aliens are under attack nearby for Umbra) and cast the spell.
Not all abilities are autocast-able. Some abilities can only be used by manually triggering them. This is the prevalent industry standard in RTS games now, and there's a reason. Players like to focus on strategy more than clicks.
<b>Why this is the best solution:</b>
It changes the focus of the alien commander from the rote ("Must click all crags and umbra them!") to the strategic ("Must decide when to turn on and off Umbra coverage."). Additionally, it adds strategic options to the Marine team, because if they find a crag with Umbra left on, they can deplete its energy to attack it later. That's a fantastic strategic element! Because now the alien commander, noticing that a marine is plinking away the energy, can simply turn off the autocast. The marine no longer decreases the energy, the alien commander had an active role in managing and deciding strategic elements, and the course of the game changed. It's these decision points throughout a game that add interesting and memorable combat, not how quickly one commander can spam umbras or healthpacks.
What that does is change the way we measure the alien commander. Suddenly we care more about how intelligently the commander is managing energy resources not how quickly he can click through buildings. This benefits the whole community in two ways:
1.) A new commander can leave autocast on to gain the benefits of buildings while he is still learning to do the other responsibilities of a commander.
2.) A new commander would (naively) leave autocast on, allowing smart marine players to rapidly deplete his energy. We have a means to identify how experienced an enemy commander is. We have new ways of distracting enemy commanders.
So, we smooth out the difficulty curve, remove rote challenges, add strategic challenges, add resource management challenges AND we don't take away anything from the game as it currently exists. Commanders who prefer to manually activate towers still have the ability to do so.
The current system punishes new commanders, forces commanders to focus on their clicks-per-minute rather than their strategic goals, and hasn't been industry standard since Warcraft 2.
Finally, I'd like to rail against the idea of an entirely passive system. Passive systems are good for certain abilities (the heal from a crag, for example) but they don't solve the problem. Though they make the game more accessible to new players, and decrease the focus on clicks per minute, they don't add any strategic value to the game. Alien commanders aren't forced to manage a new resource, they can simply drop buildings and forget about them.
<!--quoteo(post=1848328:date=May 25 2011, 03:33 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ May 25 2011, 03:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848328"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->please keep the current system. i dont like toggle auto cast or passive in general. the current system seperates good commanders (activate ability in right moment) from bad commanders (not taking care or pushing his buttons in wrong moments).
all i would agree with is simplify the gui, improve alert system etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have different definitions of good and bad commanders.
Thanks PFhfreak, you pretty much summed up my thoughts very well.
I would prefer to focus more on strategic decisions than have to focus on repetitive rote APM abilities. Even Starcraft 2, the series that made APM the most important thing when it comes to strategies, has put in autocast abilities because they know rote mechanics aren't fun nor rewarding for the majority of players. I don't want to nor have the time to baby sit a few units every moment of the game to insure their abilities are being maximized. I have a whole army to focus on, an economy to keep rolling, upgrades to keep researching, territory to keep capturing, an enemy to continually react to, and so on. So no, I don't want to sit there continually clicking the umbra ability on my crags during an engagement, and I don't think this makes me a bad commander. I can do it. It's very easy to pick up, but I have more important things to be focusing on.
I would prefer to focus more on strategic decisions than have to focus on repetitive rote APM abilities. Even Starcraft 2, the series that made APM the most important thing when it comes to strategies, has put in autocast abilities because they know rote mechanics aren't fun nor rewarding for the majority of players. I don't want to nor have the time to baby sit a few units every moment of the game to insure their abilities are being maximized. I have a whole army to focus on, an economy to keep rolling, upgrades to keep researching, territory to keep capturing, an enemy to continually react to, and so on. So no, I don't want to sit there continually clicking the umbra ability on my crags during an engagement, and I don't think this makes me a bad commander. I can do it. It's very easy to pick up, but I have more important things to be focusing on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's the challenge that separates the good players from the less good players.. to an extent of course.
That being said, I'm all for some of the ideas proposed in this thread. I'm fine with having to click a button for ~10 seconds of umbra, I'm also fine with a button that toggles Umbra on and slowly drains PRes while active. However, having something autocast is something i dont want to see. I want to play a game, not watch it.
Some of the chambers wouldn't really work with auto cast anyways so there's still those to do (at least as far as I can see, some just would be difficult to set up to figure out when to trigger an ability), and even then you'd want to turn off auto cast sometimes and go manual sometimes, options aren't a bad thing and you don't even ever have to use the toggle option if you don't want to.
Besides all that there's keeping the team informed, directing them, research, infestation, structure placement for defensive, offensive and supportive purposes. You wont be watching for long, really, you'll also be needing to do more once the rest of the alien structures and tech are added.
Crags should have umbra when attacked. Fury is a stupid ability imo.
Furthermore, the chambers could have passive ability's and activated ability's. Whereas the passive ability's make the structures useful without micro management and the activated ability's should have a specific effect and function.
For example, observatory for marines uncloaked a certain radius and had the scan function, alien chambers could have something similar.
At this point this is a low-priority thing.
I think you're partitially looking for pure strategy in a wrong game.
I do love strategy and I'd like to see as much as possible of it in NS2. However, NS2 is a RTS/FPS. RTS is already partitially characterized by mechanical micro and macromanagement and quick judgements and decisions and matches are not necessarily won by strategical moves on their own. Add the necessity of ensuring that a whole team of players is having fun under the strategy and you've got a pretty nasty situation for strategical depth.
I want NS2 to get all the strategy it can, but I don't want the game to stand on it alone unless it can really go for it in a sufficient way (which is often not the case even in pure RTS games, not to speak of an RTS/FPS). So, in addition to the pure strategical things I'd definitely like to have quickly forced decisions, time pressure, multitasking and mechanical challenge. The chamber activation is a mix of those.
I'm not against autocast as long as the chamber abilities are well designed, which leads to manual use being more efficient in the long run. However, totally passivating the chambers is a no go for me.
</u>
When you highlight a structure, a little <b>Icon</b> appears above it and then you click on the icon and it activates the abilities. The icons will also appear on the side of the screen (Hot key: T or something)
Double clicking on a structure highlights all of the same structure in your screen. Then by clicking the Icons on the side of the screen to activate them (Hot key: T or something)
Edit: T for Trigger
:)
:)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they are gonna stick to the grid system;
QWER
ASDF
ZXCV
But I agree on the doubleclick on a building, should select all of that type of building visible on the screen.
Edit: A for Activate
and what exactly is so challenging as alien comm? "manage a whole economy"... all you do is click hive, click drifter, click build res tower. thats what you can do in terms of economy. every once a while you place some chambers/hives and click on some upgrades. giving waypoints to other players is not even essential (in clan match you use team voice, in public nobody listens to you anyway :D). once all controls are polished in this game, you will feel bored since everything described above will be done very fast. then you can only watch the game from top, or better: get out of hive and join the fight.
there should be a reason to have a permanent comm, a real benefit. and chamber activation could be this reason (i already wrote about this before)
edit:
<!--quoteo(post=1849407:date=Jun 1 2011, 12:04 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Jun 1 2011, 12:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I agree on the doubleclick on a building, should select all of that type of building visible on the screen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeh, i hope they polish the controls more :)
<ul><li>The activation makes sense (ex: Umbra - at least 1 player nearby is being shot, and is still alive).</li><li>Using the ability manually is more effective than leaving it on automatically (easier to use for beginners, but turning it off would be more effective once you are an experienced commander).</li></ul>
I would love as a gorge having the ability to activate umbra while defending a hydra strong point. Many times the crag goes unused as all the structures around it get taken down.