Less Elitist Gameplay

Termy58Termy58 Members Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58102Posts: 49
edited March 2008 in NS2 General Discussion
Please?
Well one thing I like about TF2 is that there isn't any crazy people that are 9 million times better then a new comer. I played NS1 and I was raped to no extent, I was wondering if NS2 will sort of make it less elitist and more open ended to non-hardcore gamers. I myself do not considered myself a hardcore gamer, I spend a lot of time playing casual games and making games myself mostly messing around Lua, but I don't think I'll ever be one of those CSS junkies.
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  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    Don't you mean:

    Add CRITS to this game please!!!
  • whocareswcwhocareswc Members Join Date: 2007-07-31 Member: 61735Posts: 176
    TF2 is a game for non gamers...

    i played it for a bit, but the annoying thing about it is that you can spen hours on it and still die from a spray and pray..

    i understand making it more user friendly, but the reason games stay around for a long time ie CS, DOD, NS is cos the more you play the better you get and the better the score you get.

    if you play and you dont get better whats the point of playing regularly, and if you dont have regulars then there goes any fan base/ no team work and the game will go down the pooer.. like TF2 will do

    bit extreme but you get my point
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  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Termy58 @ Mar 20 2008, 01:45 AM) »
    Well one thing I like about TF2 is that there isn't any crazy people that are 9 million times better then a new comer. I played NS1 and I was raped to no extent, I was wondering if NS2 will sort of make it less elitist and more open ended to non-hardcore gamers. I myself do not considered myself a hardcore gamer, I spend a lot of time playing casual games and making games myself mostly messing around Lua, but I don't think I'll ever be one of those CSS junkies.

    I'd say there's something wrong with the depth of the game if you don't get beaten by people that have played the game for something like 4 years, some competetive. I play a lot of fps and rts online and still I'd get the beating of my lifetime if I had a chance to play cs against people that have played it for four years even somewhat active.
  • HarimauHarimau Members Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883
    I'm gonna be the one to bring back the idea of ranked servers. Argue away.
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  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    This topic suffers from:

    Hey devs, I'm bad at this video game!! Please make me better.
  • J!J! NS2 Artist Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Posts: 422
    edited March 2008
    I don't think it's a good idea to design a game where the skill level between players can never be significant (that would go against our "easy to learn, difficult to master" mantra). To me, it seems more ideal to come up with a system that allows players to join games populated with other players of roughly the same skill level.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San FranciscoSuper Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,943 admin
    Yeah this is a common problem for people. I'd really like to address this by adding in matchmaking and possibly skill-assessment/tracking so we can put people in games with other people of the same skill level. This isn't an easy or quick thing to do but I bet we'll do this eventually.
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  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 20 2008, 02:01 PM) »
    Yeah this is a common problem for people. I'd really like to address this by adding in matchmaking and possibly skill-assessment/tracking so we can put people in games with other people of the same skill level. This isn't an easy or quick thing to do but I bet we'll do this eventually.

    I gather by eventually you mean NS2 1.1? Makes sense, when the game's new the skill gaps aren't as large.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • RadixRadix Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Posts: 964
    Matchmaking would be exquisite.

    A simple tracker for the most skill-oriented tasks of the game (not welding and building because they aren't combative, and the objective is assumedly to pseudoequalize combat while still maintaining depth so that hardcore players enjoy their experience, and new players don't rage and tell all their friends how bad the game is) shouldn't be a monumental project, and it would make the gaming experience far more palletable while still maintaining the interest of players who are looking for depth as their only buying criteria for games (like myself).
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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Personally I'd rather have the game reward coordination and teamwork more than player skill. I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player. There certainly should be things to master, but I'd argue that mastering fps skills isn't as fun as mastering teamwork skills.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,185 Fully active user
    This thread turned into a discussion on matchmaking, which I wrote a big reply to, but have since turned into its own thread. Please check out How to Balance Skill on a server.
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175
    QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 20 2008, 04:31 AM) »
    I'm gonna be the one to bring back the idea of ranked servers. Argue away.

    And I already said it should be considere, but I couldn't vote yes on it for reasons of difficultly in real-world implementation. I'll go with the flow of the community on this, but keep a critical eye out for hazardous pitfalls.

    QUOTE(moultano)
    Personally I'd rather have the game reward coordination and teamwork more than player skill. I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player. There certainly should be things to master, but I'd argue that mastering fps skills isn't as fun as mastering teamwork skills.

    Good to still see you alive ol' friend, and yes I agree with you wholeheartedly.
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  • RadixRadix Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Posts: 964
    QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 20 2008, 05:58 PM) »
    Personally I'd rather have the game reward coordination and teamwork more than player skill. I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player. There certainly should be things to master, but I'd argue that mastering fps skills isn't as fun as mastering teamwork skills.


    But you don't balance to increase fun (except as a platitude) - you balance to negate mismatched games. Anyone can weld, and anyone can walk with friends. Games are decided by a few twitch skills that should be the crux of deciding the skill of a player. And although welding and covering are just as important, they're not as difficult, and not as quickly acquired. In order to quantify player skill you need to focus on only the core elements that a player must take a great deal of time to learn, because if you use the quickly-mastered elements during this balancing act you're effectively telling players that they don't need to try at all.

    What I'm saying is, if you *can* weld, and *can* team up and cover, there's no reason why you wouldn't in *any* game. These shouldn't be frustrating skills to learn like aiming and ambushing are, so they shouldn't be considered when you try to figure out if one player is capable (at their current level of habitual progression) of facing another player and having a good game.
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  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 20 2008, 09:58 PM) »
    Personally I'd rather have the game reward coordination and teamwork more than player skill. I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player. There certainly should be things to master, but I'd argue that mastering fps skills isn't as fun as mastering teamwork skills.

    Teamwork is absolutely crucial. The problem is that the fps skills are required to execute teamwork effectively and that good fps skills are superior to low teamwork, not allowing it to develop that easily.

    I haven't seen any 'teams of coordinated new players' so far. I don't think there are any in Europe at least. Things are going so fast that it takes a lot of time for inexperience players to develop the situational awarness and ect.
  • HarimauHarimau Members Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883
    edited March 2008
    QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 21 2008, 06:58 AM) »
    I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player.

    "Wow. It took all five of you and I still took out three of you? GJ."
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  • SkyrageSkyrage Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20249Posts: 420
    The problem in this issue isn't game mechanics. The problem is the player mentality.

    That's all there's to it. TF2 does what it's supposed to do, as does CS, SC or whatever other game that requires or doesn't require skill. This whole argument merely exists cause there are those that just want to "pwn" others and play for score no matter what. Doesn't matter if they do it cause that's how they enjoy it or simply cause they want to improve their e-penis or whatever. Fact remains that it's a player mentality issue, and not a game issue.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Skyrage @ Mar 21 2008, 12:45 PM) »
    The problem in this issue isn't game mechanics. The problem is the player mentality.

    That's all there's to it. TF2 does what it's supposed to do, as does CS, SC or whatever other game that requires or doesn't require skill. This whole argument merely exists cause there are those that just want to "pwn" others and play for score no matter what. Doesn't matter if they do it cause that's how they enjoy it or simply cause they want to improve their e-penis or whatever. Fact remains that it's a player mentality issue, and not a game issue.

    I think it goes a little deeper than that even. Teamplay on public servers is hard. In TF2, for example, a good medic with good soldier/demo rule servers. Even lucky crits have a reduced effect due to uber and the soldier taking hits for the medic. I rarely see a pub team able to muster up an effective response. It will be interesting to see if there are other such dominating teamplay elements in TF2 which will ultimately determine the fate of its competitive league.

    The point of the anecdote is that on pubs, teamplay will trump any individual skill. Not just trump it but trounce it. This makes the depth of the individual classes low. This would be a major departure from NS1 where I think the depth of the individual classes is extremely high AND the depth of teamplay is decent as well. A good marine can still get the trap skulk when baited, for example. Baiting is a powerful teamplay element that can also trounce pubs, but it can also be overcome by good players. TF2 doesn't seem to have the class depth and looks to be relying on finding depth with class interactions. I don't know if it's there or not.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Bacillus @ Mar 21 2008, 03:48 AM) »
    I haven't seen any 'teams of coordinated new players' so far. I don't think there are any in Europe at least. Things are going so fast that it takes a lot of time for inexperience players to develop the situational awarness and ect.

    Well, replace "new" with "can't aim." (Or can't track, whatever.)
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,185 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Skyrage @ Mar 21 2008, 12:45 PM) »
    The problem in this issue isn't game mechanics. The problem is the player mentality.

    That's all there's to it. TF2 does what it's supposed to do, as does CS, SC or whatever other game that requires or doesn't require skill. This whole argument merely exists cause there are those that just want to "pwn" others and play for score no matter what. Doesn't matter if they do it cause that's how they enjoy it or simply cause they want to improve their e-penis or whatever. Fact remains that it's a player mentality issue, and not a game issue.


    I believe you are missing a very important point here.

    NS is vastly different from TF2 and CS, and almost all shooters. The majority of shooters feature almost identical teams that point and shoot at each other. Sometimes they have 'classes', meaning one class has a weapon that points and shoots differently than the other. But they're still all guns vs guns in grounded combat.

    NS pits a wide array of classes against each other on different teams under an economic technological advancement umbrella. That might sound complicated, because it is. In CS, i get money from kills, and then I buy a bigger gun. But whats the difference between a Para and a Colt? Twice the price, but frankly, the Colt will win most of the time.

    Now whats the difference between a lerk and a fade? or a fade and an onos? or a gorge + ocs and a hive? And this is just on one team. These simple contrasts have infinitely more depth than any kind of contrast in 'class' you can find in CS, and frankly, TF2 as well. If NS had no structures, no res, and no 2nd/3rd hives or their abilities, then its depth would be a lot closer to CS and TF2. And it would have held my attention for about a week rather than four years.

    You say this whole issue is just about players wanting to dominate other players. I disagree completely. Yes I love to fade and get a crazy ratio, but I also love gorging and supporting that fade. I also love taking multiple marines and setting up an ambush against that crazy fade. Or yelling when we see an Onos rushing base. Or building a ninja PG.

    Because of the type of game that NS is, it requires, REQUIRES, acquired innate advantages. Acquired, because the purpose of controlling the resource web is to earn an advantage over the enemy. And Innate, because that advantage has to be in physical, visible ways. Such as the Fade, or the HMG, or the Proto Tech, or even upgrade chambers and hand grenades.

    TF2 might have classes which lends to (rather limited) inter-class teamwork, while CS has acquired weapons (which plateau after about two rounds). NS mixes the best aspects of both, VASTLY expands on them both, and balances them with masterful skill, at the cost of a higher learning curve.

    So no, this isnt about just wanting to 'up my e-penis' like you said. Its about the fundamental reasons why NS has the best gameplay available.
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
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  • Termy58Termy58 Members Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58102Posts: 49
    edited March 2008
    QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 20 2008, 06:01 PM) »
    Yeah this is a common problem for people. I'd really like to address this by adding in matchmaking and possibly skill-assessment/tracking so we can put people in games with other people of the same skill level. This isn't an easy or quick thing to do but I bet we'll do this eventually.

    Like Socom 2 style or Halo 2/3 style?

    Socom 2 is different lobbies, Halo 2/3 is it finds you the game.

    I'm for Halo 2/3 style.

    Also I believe L4D is making the same system, and Red Orchestra has Steam Friends Matchmaking now, as part of the steam works system.
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?! Members, Constellation Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Posts: 756 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 21 2008, 02:08 AM) »
    "Wow. It took all five of you and I still took out three of you? GJ."

    I fail to see the problem with better players making a larger impact on the game. If one player is, say, four times as good as the average (Lets not get into how we might quantify skill), why shouldn't he be able to fight on an equal footing with four average players?
    QUOTE (SmoodCroozn)
    Don't bother posting, because it seems to me, you don't even know how the game works.

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  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Posts: 4,112 mod
    These aren't black and white issues, but more questions of degree. It should be possible to have depth of play and skill based advantages that can develop over years while still allowing novice players to make an impact in the game. I believe this can be done without resorting to artificial aids like criticial hits etc. With some minor tuning of the basic elements of NS accompanied with matchmaking I think it would be very effective. Giving servers the ability to set a minimum or maximum skill threshold would really be great as it would create environments for beginners to learn together and allow for advanced servers to serve the needs of the hardcore players.
    Retired NS1 Developer, currently making myself useful as a forum moderator - message me for any mod related requests.
  • HarimauHarimau Members Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883
    QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 22 2008, 09:50 AM) »
    I fail to see the problem with better players making a larger impact on the game. If one player is, say, four times as good as the average (Lets not get into how we might quantify skill), why shouldn't he be able to fight on an equal footing with four average players?

    Are you replying to what I said? If you are, go back and look at the context of the post.
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  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Members, Constellation Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,022 Fully active user
    edited March 2008
    QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 22 2008, 05:45 AM) »
    Are you replying to what I said? If you are, go back and look at the context of the post.

    TBH Harimau I had a hard time understanding what you were trying to say because there is no context. I mean he quoted your whole post...
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • HarimauHarimau Members Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883
    edited March 2008
    ..okay. Well, my point was, it is neither fun nor rewarding for a large group of newbie players to struggle to take down a single skilled player (and lose most of their number along the way).
    It was in response to this, which I did quote: (there's your context)
    QUOTE(moultano @ Mar 21 2008, 06:58 AM) »
    I think the game is more fun all around if a team of coordinated new players can beat a lone incredible player.


    Now that that's cleared up, I will say I do agree with:
    QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Mar 22 2008, 09:50 AM) »
    I fail to see the problem with better players making a larger impact on the game. If one player is, say, four times as good as the average (Lets not get into how we might quantify skill), why shouldn't he be able to fight on an equal footing with four average players?
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  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225
    edited March 2008
    QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 23 2008, 09:15 AM) »
    ..okay. Well, my point was, it is neither fun nor rewarding for a large group of newbie players to struggle to take down a single skilled player (and lose most of their number along the way).
    It was in response to this, which I did quote: (there's your context)
    Now that that's cleared up, I will say I do agree with:
    QUOTE
    I fail to see the problem with better players making a larger impact on the game. If one player is, say, four times as good as the average (Lets not get into how we might quantify skill), why shouldn't he be able to fight on an equal footing with four average players?

    I don't think that's the issue. It's more about giving players advance knowledge of the types of player they are likely to encounter on a server.

    At the moment we have a situation where it's purely a case of trial and error. You find a server, perhaps even one marked 'Beginner ONLY', and you are more than likely to find a few incredibly experienced players dominating the game. When you're learning the game and don't fully understand the mechanics, it's extremely off-putting to have an advanced player hand your arse to you repeatedly with no means of stepping back and wondering how and why you died.

    If you play with players of a similar experience level, you have relatively more time to observe which weapons are more deadly and doing more damage to you, which means the learning curve is less steep and you learn quicker because you have time to observe the consequences of different actions. If you try out Fade as a beginner with a few advanced players about, and a Commander pushing early shotguns, you will die before you even get the hang of managing your blink adrenaline properly, and to add to this the more experienced players who understand the crucial inportance of the Fade to the Alien team may even moan at you for dying so easily. I personally learnt the basics of Fading on some intermediate level servers because any time I attempted it on the server I usually go on I would blink into a room and die in a heartbeat. It took me a lot of hours to figure out how differently I needed to play the Fade when you only have 1 or 0 MCs versus the full 3, when you have Celerity-Focus versus Celerity-Regen or Celerity-Carapace. These sort of intricacies make learning the Fade nigh impossible on a semi-advanced server, even if you can hold your own in the first-person shooter side of the Marine game.

    If you had a beginner server where everyone was on more or less equal footing, 'losing' wouldn't be such a big problem. You would still be punished for your errors, but it wouldn't be as severe or unforgiving. This is pretty much what it was like for everyone trying out NS for the first time when the mod dropped so many years ago, everyone had a great time sandboxing in the game. It's just generally better for the average non-organised vanilla server to have the innate ability to retrict its playerbase based on experience.
  • RadixRadix Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Posts: 964
    edited March 2008
    QUOTE(Harimau @ Mar 23 2008, 05:15 AM) »
    my point was, it is neither fun nor rewarding for a large group of newbie players to struggle to take down a single skilled player (and lose most of their number along the way).

    Because using teamwork to counter a single skilled rambo is nothing like a bossfight that the skilled player is explicitly asking for by soloing and trying to find someone who knows how to play the game well enough to beat them.
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  • DominingDomining Members Join Date: 2007-09-27 Member: 62452Posts: 480
    QUOTE(Radix @ Mar 23 2008, 11:16 AM) »
    Because using teamwork to counter a single skilled rambo is nothing like a bossfight that the skilled player is explicitly asking for by soloing and trying to find someone who knows how to play the game well enough to beat them.

    I don't know about you, but I don't look for a challenge. I just want to 10bullet skulks.
  • haymohaymo Members, NS1 Playtester Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34040Posts: 219
    A simple half-hearted solution would be to allow server administrators to set their server to have a certain skill level, basic, easy, moderate, hard, expert. Then have a server filter which allows players to choose which level they want to join. Then if you are dominating too much the game can recommend you join a higher skill level, and vise versa.
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  • RadixRadix Members, Constellation Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34654Posts: 964
    It's not that simple. The difficulty levels that are displayed need to be relative to the player's skill, so when the query is made, the results are tailored to what will actually *be* hard, easy, and intermediate rather than being arbitrary platitudes.
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