My Latest Causality

QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
Or, the book that inspired Bioshock has completely destroyed...
...my perception of reality.

So, I read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". This book was the real beginning of the objectivist idea that was Andrew Ryan's vision of Rapture, in Bioshock- a world of the world's best(even if not the smartest) all living together in a world.

Before today, it was simply "pretty neat". 2 days ago I reached an impasse with the book, a point I couldn't read in spurts like I had the rest- it was a continuous monologue from a main character that spanned 80 pages of size 10 font 52 lines deep.

This single monologue has questioned my view of art, charity, government, and most jarringly...religion. I've heard hundreds of arguments by atheists(who while claiming to be so much more intelligent than those they decry) of the "proof" that religion is wrong, when any intelligent person knows that God is unprovable in either fashion.

But I have never heard such an argument against it using nothing at all but logic.

Has anyone else read this book? Did you find anything profound about it? I'm nearly done, and I'm dreading its end. It'll be a sad day that I cannot relive the world of John Galt outside of my mind.
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Comments

  • XythXyth Avatar Join Date: 2003-11-04 Member: 22312Members Posts: 2,625
    Dude, it's 2 am.

    Also if the book is that good I will go read it, I've heard people talk about it before.

    Im going to bed, why am I posting?
    The first thing you must learn is to learn from your mistakes.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 4,219 Advanced user
    Honestly, I hated that book so much it turned me off of reading in general for a while. But hey, if it makes you question your religion who am I to argue with it? tounge.gif

    Go read "The Dispossessed."
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE(moultano @ Sep 21 2007, 01:39 AM) »
    Honestly, I hated that book so much it turned me off of reading in general for a while. But hey, if it makes you question your religion who am I to argue with it? tounge.gif

    Go read "The Dispossessed."


    Why did it turn you off? Its general assumption that its correct? Or do you disagree with what it says? I find the story lacking quite a bit and the style of writing not very good for a novel- but I think both were more just as a method to explain the idea as simply as possible of objectivism.
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  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    Also, to add:

    I think the thing that really brought this book over the top for me is the fact that it confirmed many different things I've thought in my life:

    The world is full of absolutes.

    Going to extremes is not a sin- if anything, it is that of the courageous, as long as it is done intelligently. To put it as beautifully as the book did: When one idea is right and one idea is wrong, to compromise only brings benefit to the idea that is wrong.

    Loving everyone is simply impractical, if not detrimental- the fact that my own religion preaches this, but it has never really fit in with how I live my life is evidence to this fact. I treat everyone I meet with respect, but I do not love my fellow man- no, only those whom I have deemed worthy. For to love more than those who are worthy is to lessen the value of those whom are worthy, and my love with it.

    You are not to be given respect, or compensation, for nothing in return. Both are lessened in value because of this, and furthermore, lessen yourself- show people a base amount of respect, but whether they are young or elderly, a bum or an official of high office, earning respect or compensation should still be required of all mankind.

    Some people exist in this world who only wish to be a detriment to it- others may give them the value of being their parent's pride and joy, but I honestly doubt that those same parents, if looking at their children objectively, would find any value in them- the only value they see as parents is that they raised them and they survived years of life at all, and as a sign of love between the parents. These same people are drains on society as such that to hear their cries of charity and the evils of business and corporations should be viewed not as a noble endeavor for those unluckily born into a poor family or a slum neighborhood, but in fact should be viewed as a ridiculous endeavor deserving no more than that of a drunkard spouting curses to those around him.

    Or as the Bible puts it, to teach a man to fish is infinitely better than to give him a fish- or hell, a lifetime supply of fish.


    I guess it made me happy to know I'm not the only one who believes the above. I realize many disagree with me, but it does make me feel good that I am not alone in my thoughts.
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  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members Posts: 3,137
    QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Sep 21 2007, 02:20 AM) »
    But I have never heard such an argument against it using nothing at all but logic.

    So you've never read Ernst Mayr's logical breakdown of Darwin? I still haven't met a religious person yet who has.

    Also, yuck. Ayn Rand is a serious ######.

    Loosen up. If you really have got to be so serious in criticizing the people around you, it sounds like you should move to the moon or something(maybe below the sea?). People aren't perfect, and neither are you. How does the Bible put it? Judge not, lest ye be judged?
    the artist formerly known as duff-man
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    edited September 2007
    QUOTE(pardzh @ Sep 21 2007, 04:12 AM) »
    So you've never read Ernst Mayr's logical breakdown of Darwin? I still haven't met a religious person yet who has.

    Also, yuck. Ayn Rand is a serious ######.

    Loosen up. If you really have got to be so serious in criticizing the people around you, it sounds like you should move to the moon or something(maybe below the sea?). People aren't perfect, and neither are you. How does the Bible put it? Judge not, lest ye be judged?


    I don't claim to be perfect, and I don't expect others to be. I expect them to not be complete idiots, both by having absolutely no common sense and a complete lack of any kind of education, formal or informal. They have no opinion on anything, have no will to form an opinion, and if they did have no will to express the opinion as they wouldn't put the time in to be able to back up their argument with anything.

    I'm a surprisingly easy person to get along with- its more a frustration of not finding people even close to my intellectual level. I'm not claiming to be some genius, but when compared to the completely worthless masses, its hard to not look like one unintentionally.

    And note: Judgment in the Bible has been taken incorrectly by every damn person who seems to read it. The judgment value has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING other than that of if they are going to heaven or not. A better way to put it is, "Don't worry about if others are going to heaven- just be sure you are."

    And no, I've never read Ernst Mayr anything. Honestly, I haven't even heard of him. I'll look into it- but I hope it tries harder than Dawkins, 'cause if I argued like he did for anything but atheism I'd be called a completely delirious religious fundamentalist ignorant imbecile. After reading "The God Delusion", I remember hearing better arguments from my physics teacher in 10th grade.

    Edit: Hell, something he practically spawned, The Flying Spaghetti Monster letter argues better than he does, and it doesn't even attempt to disprove God, formally. tounge.gif
    Edit2: So, were you talking about Systematics and the Origin of Species?
    Looking through his works, it seems to me he already assumed what Darwin said is true- which at a base level, I believe is completely correct, but really, Darwinism doesn't even begin to question my belief in God. Not only can it co-exist, it doesn't begin to try and disprove things either way. I completely understand that evolution is a very logical thing- natural selection only makes sense, and the human race itself has a phrase for what it does, in a sense: Only the winners get the chance to write the history books. Thusly, we all come from "winners", in a sense.

    The way that Ayn Rand questioned my belief was a little bit more profound- it actually made me realize that I neither believe, nor support the ideologies of my own religion. Christ speaks many times that the ultimate beauty of the world is when one man gives his life for another- even moreso if he doesn't even know the man. I may be able to sacrifice my life for someone I love, but never, for someone I don't even know. I'd even to a point watch an entire group of people starve to death because of their own qualities- I do not believe that people have the right to be alive, but that the right to be alive must be earned and maintained. While others may help even me keep myself alive(like my parents, for example), I at the same time must posess the ability to completely support myself if forced to- be able to make a living and etcetera. My beliefs do not dictate that there cannot be those who are less than I(and I'll be the first to say that while we are all created equal, we are not equal as time goes on. I am worth more to this world than my Uncle Ron, for example, whom is a meth addict who leeches not only from the welfare system but from his family, friends, coworkers, and furthermore steals to get more. You may disagree with me, and thats your right, but in my mind he is worth less than me, and I doubt there are many in the world who if forced to choose who could live would choose him over me), but that those people should strive to meet the standards of society. This isn't a push for a society where we all work for equal pay or reward, but a push for people to produce enough so that they do not consume more than they produce for an extended period of time. To me, a hardworking idiot is as good and useful a man as a lazy genius- the methods of their work are truly the only difference in output, really(the hardworking idiot is slow but constant, the lazy genius has spurts of completely insane productivity followed by nearly no productivity for quite a while).

    Edit3: And why should I(whom for the sake of argument should be assumed to be productive) be the one expelled, instead of those whom are not held to decent standards?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members Posts: 9,006 Fully active user
    Survival of the fittest does indeed dictate that a "fit" individual does not jeopardise their own fortune to aid the less fit.

    "Fitness" in the sense of natural selection and evolution means the ability to successfully and consistently reproduce within the environment one finds themselves in. Within the enormously complex environment of modern society, fitness becomes immensely hard to judge. We acknowledge our own ability to objectively and reliably judge fitness by granting a seemingly unfit individual the benefit of a doubt - often even many doubts.
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Members Posts: 4,521
    If you don't really believe in what Christ taught and stood for, why did it take this book to make you doubt your religion? Meanwhile, I'm an agnostic, but I think Christ said some awesome things and I believe in what he stood for. Your uncle with the drug problem for example - if I were you, I'm sure I would be mad at him for hurting my family, but I wouldn't judge him to be worth less than I am. I would feel bad for him, but I probably wouldn't go out of my way to help him (like Christ probably would if he were here, which makes him a better person than us IMO, which I guess is as it should be). =p

    My own problem with religion isn't based on logic or anything. My feeling is that, if God is such an egomaniac that he requires me to devote my whole life to him in order to go to heaven, then I don't want to go to his stupid heaven anyway. If god just wants me to be a good person and live a good life, then I can get behind that and I'm doing just fine. and of course if god doesn't exist, it doesn't matter how you act... but if I were God, I personally would think the most highly of people who do good deeds and practice random acts of kindness without believing in me, because I would know that such people are really good people and not being good out of fear of hellfire...
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    edited September 2007
    Okay, first off, Atlas Shrugged was not the inspiration for Bioshock. The Fountainhead was, and although the plot of Bioshock has a passing similarity to Atlas Shrugged, the Objectivist content of Atlas Shrugged is so heavy that there can't help but be a bunch of synchronicities, and Fountainhead is probably more closely related, at least as far as I interpret the two books (and also based on what I think Ken Levine said).

    That said, Atlas Shrugged is one of those books everyone on Earth should read, for one reason or another, like 1984 or Cath-22 or something. Ayn Rand is obviously nutso but like you've discovered there's a ton of stuff in that book that ought to really make a person think, no matter where they stand on the variety of stances Rand takes (and by variety I mean communism is bad). It definitely changed me a good deal, as did The Fountainhead. I cringe a little every time someone brings up a famous book like this because invariably people come out of the woodwork with variations of "hmm never read it maybe I'll get around to it" but really there's not much I can do except become inured to that.

    Amongst the many realizations, little and big, that I got out of Shrugged, the religion one is one of the biggest. I've been an atheist since before I was old enough to know what that meant, but Rand's argument against religion is not only different enough from the others but I think also more compelling in some ways that it opened up a new line of thinking for me.

    Edit: TINY spoilers for Bioshock, not even spoilers really, and yes I know the link shows up:
    You can tell it was based mostly off The Fountainhead: There's a tiny "H. Roark" on the Eve's Garden poster and "Frank Fontaine" is of course a reference to the title of the book.

    Edit the second: Also, the topic title is bugging me. Causality doesn't imply casualties, Quan biggrin-fix.gif
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • SpacerSpacer Invented dogs Join Date: 2003-05-02 Member: 16008Members Posts: 1,527
    I thought inspiration for Bioshock was System Shock 2 :O!
    Personally when I played the game, I don't think Andrew Ryan was insane or anything, just naive. My interpretation was he built Rapture with good intentions, invited some brilliant minds to live there, and expected everyone to be happy in paradise. People around him forced him to become more competitive, ie: Fontaine, and as it played out Fontaine was just more resourceful.
  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    edited September 2007
    Just had to say, quickly:

    Tycho, Ken Levine has said in dozens of interviews that Atlas Shrugged is the one that inspired it. Here is one I immediately found where he references Shrugged and there is no mention of The Fountainhead- http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=539 (Note, thats the spoiler interview!)

    Furthermore, the entire idea of the utopia set apart from the world is *from* Atlas Shrugged. All Levine did was take Rand's utopia, and combine it with her own world's version of Atlantis. The game was covered in references to characters or ideals in the book.

    The Fountainhead began her idea, but it did not spell it out like Atlas Shrugged.

    Edit: And elaborating on other things.

    Disco Monkey: Because it had never been put before me explained the way she did, and when she did and I thought about it, it clicked into its proper place and felt right. I had always questioned the line between charity and fostering idiocy, but to me, the difference was "well, just be sure they're *really* needy!". It never quite felt right, because it wasn't right for me: Charity itself fosters idiocy. This isn't to say its a bad thing to give to charity, but more like its a bad thing for the aiding of a people(such in the case of charities for the 'starving children of Africa') as they will never learn to be completely autonomous in a modern society.

    And furthermore: Wouldn't your view of how I should look at my Uncle obviously make him to be worth less than I? I mean, even in that basic example it is nothing but an argument of "Well of course undamaged goods is worth more than damaged goods."
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    Okay yeah, you're wrong. The only time Levine referenced Shrugged in that interview was as an example of how philosophers write books. She did the same thing in The Fountainhead and Bioshock as an examination of how normal people apply the ideals instead of paragons works just as well (in fact, far better).

    I was talking about this interview which is where he says a lot of the philosophy came from Fountainhead, which is more accurate than saying Atlas Shrugged as far as I'm concerned because when you look at the themes it's way closer to Fountainhead than Shrugged. The two books are so similar that you could say Bioshock draws from both equally, but that's really only in terms of the Objectivist stuff. When it comes to themes apart from simply Objectivism, the only similarity to Atlas Shrugged is Rapture's removal from the outside world which is basically incidental compared to the similarities with The Fountainhead, which is a point I already made. It's silly to say "look, city full of smart people!" and say Atlas Shrugged was the source when many of the the ingame references and more importantly all the large themes match up with the other book much more closely. Aside from Atlas' name and the final boss I didn't see a ton of Atlas Shrugged references in there. Maybe you could point some more out, but for me at least Fountainhead is definitely winning the "what is Bioshock based on" contest.

    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 21 2007, 09:48 AM) »
    Okay yeah, you're wrong. The only time Levine referenced Shrugged in that interview was as an example of how philosophers write books. She did the same thing in The Fountainhead and Bioshock as an examination of how normal people apply the ideals instead of paragons works just as well (in fact, far better).

    I was talking about this interview which is where he says a lot of the philosophy came from Fountainhead, which is more accurate than saying Atlas Shrugged as far as I'm concerned because when you look at the themes it's way closer to Fountainhead than Shrugged. The two books are so similar that you could say Bioshock draws from both equally, but that's really only in terms of the Objectivist stuff. When it comes to themes apart from simply Objectivism, the only similarity to Atlas Shrugged is Rapture's removal from the outside world which is basically incidental compared to the similarities with The Fountainhead, which is a point I already made. It's silly to say "look, city full of smart people!" and say Atlas Shrugged was the source when many of the the ingame references and more importantly all the large themes match up with the other book much more closely. Aside from Atlas' name and the final boss I didn't see a ton of Atlas Shrugged references in there. Maybe you could point some more out, but for me at least Fountainhead is definitely winning the "what is Bioshock based on" contest.


    I'll need to read The Fountainhead to be sure that not a good many of my thoughts are based from both. Until I do get around to reading it(I have an obligation to read 3 different books now, Crime and Punishment, Johnny Got his Gun, and the Mass Effect book, since I wanna finish that before I get the game), I'll just settle to 'both'.
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  • TheTitanTheTitan IL, USA Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20307Members, Constellation Posts: 132 Advanced user
    awesome, I did not know that there was a book. I will have to get it and come back with some comments after I read it.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    QUOTE(TheTitan @ Sep 21 2007, 12:07 PM) »
    awesome, I did not know that there was a book. I will have to get it and come back with some comments after I read it.


    you're making my brain bleed
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • TheTitanTheTitan IL, USA Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20307Members, Constellation Posts: 132 Advanced user
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 21 2007, 12:14 PM) »
    you're making my brain bleed

    awesome
  • TestamentTestament Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4037Members Posts: 2,927
    I haven't had the time lately, but I'm going to grab Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead next time I swing by the book store or library. Been meaning to for months but just never get a chance...
  • PulsePulse To create, to create and escape. Join Date: 2002-08-29 Member: 1248Members, Constellation Posts: 2,670
    QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Sep 20 2007, 11:20 PM) »
    My Latest Causality,

    I stopped reading here.

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  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE(Pulse @ Sep 22 2007, 11:15 AM) »
    I stopped reading here.

    image


    Its really sad that you make a joke post when everyone else, even people known for being cynical and jaded, managed to have intelligent well thought out posts.

    Nice job.
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    QUOTE(Pulse @ Sep 22 2007, 01:15 PM) »
    I stopped reading here.


    Ironically Quanaut wasn't trying to be smart. He simply misspelled "casualty."
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 22 2007, 12:03 PM) »
    Ironically Quanaut wasn't trying to be smart. He simply misspelled "casualty."


    No, I very much meant Causality. If you remember, much of the monologue at the end of Atlas Shrugged was about causality- and thats why I used it. The title just jumped into my head, and I still wasn't trying to be smart, more as a kinda-insider-joke thing.
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Sep 22 2007, 02:05 PM) »
    No, I very much meant Causality. If you remember, much of the monologue at the end of Atlas Shrugged was about causality- and thats why I used it. The title just jumped into my head, and I still wasn't trying to be smart, more as a kinda-insider-joke thing.


    Your latest causality is your perception of reality? In that case, the picture Pulse posted is entirely apt. It's more apt than I've ever seen before, in fact.
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members Posts: 9,006 Fully active user
    QUOTE(Quaunaut @ Sep 22 2007, 08:58 PM) »
    Its really sad that you make a joke post when everyone else, even people known for being cynical and jaded, managed to have intelligent well thought out posts.

    Nice job.

    I laughed. A joke is not sad if someone laughs. Especially not if it's me.
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members Posts: 3,137
    Yeesh, that's a lot of text that I'm way too lazy to cut up and quote.

    I'm going to have to agree with DiscoZombie here. Why did it take some stuffy old novel by a total whackjob to make you realize you wouldn't give your life for a meth-head? The point I was trying to make by mentioning Mayr was a dampened a bit by the fact that you're not a creationist apparently.

    If you can let some parts of the Bible slide, why not others?
    the artist formerly known as duff-man
  • MedHeadMedHead Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11115Members, Constellation Posts: 2,730
    I tried reading Atlas Shrugged because my coworker kept nagging me to do so, and I wasn't able to finish the book. It was depressing, frustrating, physically nauseating, and extremely long-winded. I stopped reading when the main character got home and was verbally assaulted by his entire family, probably around a quarter of the way through. I had wanted to stop before that, but figured I'd struggle through so my coworker and I could talk about something.

    I should have known the book wasn't for me, considering the reviews I've read of it. Most were about as long-winded as the book, written by people who enjoyed being pointlessly philosophical about even the most mundane of topics. I guess I'm just not that type of "thinker".
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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Members Posts: 10,501
    QUOTE(MedHead @ Sep 23 2007, 02:02 PM) »
    It was depressing, frustrating, physically nauseating, and extremely long-winded.


    You want a copy of the book that hasn't been puked upon, I'm afraid. It makes a world of difference. Trust me, the first time I started rereading it, this time without the stench of dried vomit and the smudged pages that made it impossible to comprehend, it was far less depressing, frustrating, and nauseau inducing. Still long-winded though. Not much you can do about that.
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • MedHeadMedHead Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11115Members, Constellation Posts: 2,730
    I didn't vomit on it, but it was a library copy. Perhaps you're on to something.
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  • QuaunautQuaunaut The longest seven days in history... Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14759Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 7,221 Advanced user
    QUOTE(pardzh @ Sep 23 2007, 09:34 AM) »
    Yeesh, that's a lot of text that I'm way too lazy to cut up and quote.

    I'm going to have to agree with DiscoZombie here. Why did it take some stuffy old novel by a total whackjob to make you realize you wouldn't give your life for a meth-head? The point I was trying to make by mentioning Mayr was a dampened a bit by the fact that you're not a creationist apparently.

    If you can let some parts of the Bible slide, why not others?


    Oh, I believe in creation, but I'm not so naive as to think the Bible layed everything out. I don't think anyone who has actually read the Bible does either. Tends to be those people raised up in it and assume what they think is the case.

    And where did you get the line about me giving my life for a meth head? Thats completely off of my point, and I don't even see where you could pull that out from it.


    And as to my view on the Bible: I really don't know. Right now my beliefs aren't firm by any means, and I'm pretty comfortable saying that. I know Jesus Christ is my savior, but the religion built around him makes me angry, sick, and frustrated to the point that I hate to even be loosely associated with many of them. And despite what many say about "Your religion should be between you and God", I think we all know its never that simple.
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