Small Squad Tactical Positioning

JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
edited September 2003 in Frontiersmen Strategy
...Illustrated
It's been some time since I wanted to post this: a quick illustrated guide to the positioning of the marines in a squad, in order to give them a better chance of staying alive (a little bit longer). This idea came after a heated discussion I had with a good friend of mine about my emphazis on NS and him finding that the game truely lacked of either a strategical or a tactical aspect...

I had made those graphics for another game and had to symplify them a little, but I think it helped convincing him, and at some point, I thought I would post this on the forum, since this should still prove to be somewhat useful and understandable for most of you guys (and girls).






1.0 Introduction:

The following points are about how I thought, as a commander, my squad of marines should ideally be moving, with a specifical assignation to each squad member.
It came to my mind that most (or every) clans may already have integrated those points, or similar ones, and thus not need to spend alot of time on this topic.
I also understand that achieving such a coordination between players on a Pub is merely of the domain of dream, but still... If a sufficient amount of people (claners or not) find it interesting enough to be reffered at, maybe more people will try to follow those concepts and so on, resulting in a maybe successful use of those concepts on public servers.
I, for myself, based my work on the way I thought a Small Tactical Unit such as SWAT unit members may work together. Meaning I never been in such a Unit and thus can only guess how it may work.
As I don't mean to hold the Ultimate Truth, some of my examples may not appear right or featful enough in the context of a game like NS for some of you, or subjects to correction.
Feel free to coment, post your thoughts and what you think sounds correct or not, and how to remedy.

Remember that this topic is just suggesting, no obligation intended for you to reply if you don't like it wink.gif


1.1 Small Squad Tactical Positioning in NS: Who's Who?

It's good for a commander to see his marines rejoin their dedicated squads.
But still, this is not good enough.
How many squads of lost souls just barely had a glimps of their death since it came from behind while all of the squad members were happily running forward to this remote WP, never noticing this lonely or couple of skulks waiting to jump on their backs...

Small Squad Tactical Positioning (therefor refered as SSTP) is about preventing this kind of misadventure and some more.
Notice: To prevent, but not to completely eliminate it, because this cannot properly be achieved, and because no best plans ever passed through the few sec of battle...

In order to improve the longevity of a squad, the way it's members are moving should be loocked at with a particular attention:
I'll devide the members of the squad as:

-Alpha Members: Alpha, to refer to Attack. These guys are the one who will take the Heat coming from the front of the Squad, the ones leading the way toward the objective assigned by the comm.

-Delta members: Delta, to refer to Defense. The Deltas are to keep the 6 of their teamates clear, thus forming the rear guard of the Squad. If something try to sneak from behind, they are the ones who will have to deal with it in the first place, and let their teamates know.

-Omega members: as in "All-Around". Remaining between the Alphas and Deltas, these soldiers are intended to play a multiple-purpose role. They must be able to be versatile and provide quick firepower assistance to both front and rear Squad members.
Usually, we will count in it the Grenade-Launcher carriers, those who have welders, those who will build a structure or destroy an alien RT while the others are covering them, those who will place mines and such.


1.2 SSTP: The Utility of a Sarge'

Not messing up with the roles of each other amidst mission is key to keep the minds cool, so this should be decided at the very beginning of the game and stay in order all along the game, unless specificaly specified.

Note: The commander not always having the time to assign each player to a Squad fonction, a "Field Commander", "Sargeant" may prove to be very usefull to organise things together and assign positions.
Thus, having a sargeant for each squad would be the best, as the com would only have to specify tasks to the Sargeant.

1.3 SSTP: For Who is it meant to work the best?


Since insuring that you arrive at destination almost safely is a must, the SSTP may also slow a little bit down your movement rate.
This is, I think, it's biggest default.
Thus, if you keep high the chance of survival of your squad, it may not allow you to rush like hell.
Still, remember, if all or half the squad gets decimated before even arriving at destination, waiting for reinforcements may be a bigger drawback.
Plus, marines weren't meant to match the speed of skulks basicaly.

This being said, the best situation for the SSTP to work with greatest efficiency maybe on a squad of Heavy Armors, but this is only my opinion. Even if their longevity has already received a a good improvement because of the armors and their number, it will still improve it a little bit.


Now let's move to the next chapter:


2.1 SSTP: Now to (theorical) action:


To be properly called a "squad", I think a group should count at least 4 peoples in it.
In the next few examples, I'll take for reference a group of 5 marines:
- 2 Alphas refered as Alpha1 marine and Alpha2
- 2 Deltas (Delta3 and Delta4)
- 1 Omega (Omega5)

Thus, even if you don't have a mic and no time to type alot, "1" or "2" will always refer to an Alpha member of your squad.


Lexical:
user posted image
This icon means the marine is standing still, "In position", aiming at where the Triangle is pointed at. The number indicates what's the position of the marine (in our example, "1" refers to marine Alpha1, one of the marines who are leading the way for the squad). Usually, we''l assume the marine who is "in position" is crouching, thus allowing people behind him (for example Omega5) to provide him firepower.

user posted image
This icons means the marine is moving from the green hollow circle (his previous position) to the more solid and sharp looking blue shape (his next position), while looking forward.

user posted image
This icon means the marine is strafing while moving. In this example, Alpha1 is left-strafing.

user posted image
This red fading cone represents the zone a marine covers, it's sights. It is refered as his "Kill Zone". To keep things clear, only the Kill Zones of covering marines are displayed in graphics.


This being said, my next post will provide my first Tactical Positioning advices.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    2.2 SSTP Step-by-step: Positioning Overview


    user posted image


    This first graphic shows how the squad marines are basically postioned.
    I have to say that the scale isn't right here: they should be at something like 5 meters
    far from their nearest neighbor.
    This is in order to prevent to shield each other's shots, getting in a teamates' line of sight, and if one of the marine is rushed -and infortunately eliminated- the enemy will have to close the distance between him and his next target, giving time to the marines to kill it.


    Let's pay attention to details here:

    - players 1 and 2 are in HAs and are respectively Alpha1 (1) and Alpha2 (2). Therefor, they are leading the way. 1 is a little bit further than 2. 1 carries a shotgun and 2 an HMG.

    - players 3 and 4 are also in HA and are respectively Delta3 (3) and Delta4 (4). They, as such, close the march, and thus aim at the rear. They also carry a shottie and a HMG.

    - Omega5 carries a Grenade-Launcher plus a welder. He is standing in the middle of the formation. From this position, he can quickly turn around, weld every one, and provide suppressive fire from his GL. If there was a sixth player (hypotetical Omega6), I would have given him another HMG plus a set of mines/another Welder. Mines may help alot, even if not at base.

    The following image is the first of the serie illustrating the Situation-A: Basic Movement and positioning in a corridor.


    2.3 SSTP Step-by-Step: Situation-A: Basic Movement and Positioning in a corridor

    user posted image

    Here we can see the Kill Zones of both Alpha1 and Delta4. That is because the squad is going to make his first move. Alpha1 and and Delta4 are crouching, covering the zone they rescetively have in sights, while their teamates are going to move, like illustrated in the next graphic:


    user posted image

    In this first move, Alpha2 and Delta3 are moving forward. Alpha2 can do so freely because Alpha1 is covering what may come from the corridor. While Delta3 can advance quickly, because he knows his buddy Delta4 is covering his six. As nothing's happening, Omega5 doesn't have to do anything and thus just move forward.

    user posted image

    In this pic, we can see that after crossing a certain distance (let's say something like 10-15 meters), both Alpha2 and Delta3 stop running and both "Get in Position". Their killing zone now appear on the graphic, as they are covering their area of sight.
    Thus, as nothing moves, Alpha1 stops covering and move to his next position. Delta4 do the same, stopping to aim at the direction the squad was coming from, and move to an advanced position. Omega5 follows the movement.


    This combination will repeat itself from this point to Move1, as Alpha1 and Delta4 arrive to their next position and provide cover, while the rest of the team move on. etc.
    As you may see, at each step of the movement, somebody was providing cover to both front and rear.
    Thus, no way to have a surprise attack from aliens, but by having cloacked aliens.

    Cloacked aliens can be dealt by firing randomly from time to time, in order to uncloack them or by having the com scanner-swap the area around the squad.
    If an alien tries to sneak in a way or another, then it's only a matter of skills (from both alien and marine players) and teamplay from marines.

    Be careful too not to cease your protection of the rear or the front because one alien taunts you, while overs profite of this diversion to attack you.
    This is a very situational problem, but mainly You'll have to trust your teamates.


    My Next graphics will be shown in my next post.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    2.4 SSTP Step-by-Step: Situation B: Crossing a Corner



    user posted image


    We rejoin our Crew here (let's give them a name... the "Trident" Squad? sounds great to me wink.gif) facing a corner.
    As We can see, Alpha2 and Delta3 are the ones covering both front and rear.
    If we pay attention to details, we'll see that Alpha1, while moving, keep himself far away from the the corner:
    This is in order to avoid as much as possible to be in range for melee attack from an ambushing alien.

    Plus, if an alien tries to jump on him, this alien will be in direct sight of Alpha2.
    The best bet here for Alpha1 is to go in the top left corner (on the graphic) while shooting the alien:
    This will make the alien have to deal with both his shots and those of his buddies, in a a powerful crossfire issue (let's keep in mind they have both shotties and HMGs) and he won't be between them and the alien.

    But let's assume nothing like that happens.


    user posted image

    In this Graphic, Alpha1 gets in position, and offers a protective fire to it's buddy Alpha2, having the next corridor in plain sight. Alpha2 moves by strafing, taking advantage of the corner as a cover.
    While the rest of the team follows, as in the Situation-A.

    user posted image

    This pic only shows the following moves. Everything's okay for every one. Maybe the Com will ask Omega5 to drop a mine or two, if he is equiped with some, in order to do damages to eventual aliens, if the Squad ad to retreat to this corner.


    user posted image

    The trick here is for the Defenders (Delta3 and 4) to keep in touch with the rest of the team while being sure nothing follows them, while covering each over. It's a bit of teamplay here...

    user posted image


    ...And there. It's done. Nothing bad happened, the processus repeat itself here from situation-A, step 1.


    Next issues in my next post.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Posts: 1,464Members
    Good stuff for games like Raven Shield, but in NS you really don't get much benefit out of organized manuvers like the ones you've illustrated. :\ Sure it's nice to have everyone's back covered, but I guarantee the instant there's a spore cloud your formation will go straight to hell.

    Even if it's a clan game where organization is easy, you don't have that many players to pull it off.
    "Flatline, you have been upgraded from awesome to friggin l337." - Legionnaired
  • AshkajioniAshkajioni Ashkajioni Join Date: 2003-02-25 Member: 13995Posts: 372Members
    Jeer mentioned above that they all had heavy armor, spoor wont do anything to them accept maybe a slight distraction. I think the overall benifit here, isnt the actual formation. But in actuality, its a better cordinated squad. I dont know how many times ive been in a squad where 2 marines will run off to chase a gorge and then 3 seconds later a fade flys in and kills the me and another squad member, metabolises, then goes back after the 2 harassing the chunky one pudgy.gif
    COMMANDER!!! I need more cigarettes!!
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    2.5 SSTP Step-by-Step: Situation C: Crossing a "T" Junction


    As we join now our usual Squad, they are about to cross a T-junction corridor.
    Let's assume that their WP is on the left path.
    This kind of junction are a little bit risky since an attack may come from 3 different directions instead of 2 in the previous situations. A way to come accross this would be to move as described after:

    user posted image


    Alpha1 and Alpha2, leading the way, are the first to ingage themselves in the junction. They do so by strafing, thus allowing them to get instant sight of their surroundings. They somehow cover their zone, even if they are moving, but for clarity in the graphic, their Kill Zone isn't drawn.
    Notice that Alpha2 is a little bit higher (in the graphic) than Alpha1. This is in order for this last one to move quickly, without going in anyone's sight in the next Move.
    Omega5, providing support, stays in position in order to cover them. Both Alpha1 and 2 are in his sight, so he can easily protect them. He may even shoot a suppressive fire with his GL on both sides of the junction, in order to prevent any problem from ambushing aliens in his imediate surroundings.
    While all these people are moving, Delta3 and 4, sticking to their rear guard role, move accordingly.


    user posted image

    In the Second Move, Alpha1 join the other side of the left corridor, in order to give Alpha2 plain sight of the corridor.
    Thus, Alpha2, turning toward this direction, can provide an efficient cover to his teamate.
    He can do so as soon as Omega5 has joined him, by strafing, and providing cover from the right corridor (here too, his Kill Zone isn't drawn, but he should be covering this area).
    At the rear guard, it's now Delta3's turn to cover while Delta4 moves to his next position.


    user posted image

    As soon as Alpha1 takes position, Alpha2 moves toward the left, making the squad to follow him. The tricky part now lies on the rear guard, as both Delta3 and 4 have to keep in sight respectively the corridor the squad is coming from, and the corridor on the right on this pic.
    Notice that in order to do so, Delta3 just moves backward, still aiming in the direction he came from.


    user posted image

    In this last pic, we can see that the squad revolved back to the basic formation, as shown in 2.3 Situation-A.
    Alpha1 moved forward, and Delta4 just cease his coverage in order to follow the general movement, while Delta3 provides him protective cover, while still moving backward in order to stick to the team.

    This ends this part. And well, that'll be all for today folks. If you feel like giving me feedbacks, they are welcome.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • NecrosisNecrosis The Loquacious Sage Join Date: 2003-08-03 Member: 18828Posts: 3,203Members, Constellation
    The moves are still sound for pub games as well. If you see someone in front on point, fall into a supportive position. If you're in the back, sweep the rear.

    Good for new players, who tend to conga line or don't cover their teammates.
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    QUOTE
    Good stuff for games like Raven Shield, but in NS you really don't get much benefit out of organized manuvers like the ones you've illustrated. :\ Sure it's nice to have everyone's back covered, but I guarantee the instant there's a spore cloud your formation will go straight to hell.

    Even if it's a clan game where organization is easy, you don't have that many players to pull it off.


    Thanks for replying! smile.gif


    Well, as Ashkajioni already said, I assumed in my examples that the squad was already in Heavy Armors: I for sure thought about the spore problem, usually going lerk when I play on the alien side. wink.gif

    I fairly know that it's nearly impossible to get (and ask for) such a coordinated team, but still I didn't give these indications in order to have them strctly and exactly followed by the rule, without any change or what.
    I (and certainly anyone) can't ask for that, because it would be like asking for a miracle (well sometimes miralces do happen tounge.gif).
    So what's the point?
    The point is to provide a guide, a reference, a model for people that they may look at, and maybe try to pull up when they are going to play.
    If every (well some) individuals that read this topic and found the advices interesting, were to play together and try to remember what has been said here, they may manage to improve alot their teamplay.
    Plus, this would allow them for a more strategical view of the game, maybe allowing them to explore it in a new dimension.

    That's the major reason why I created this topic. smile.gif
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Lumberjack_WannabeLumberjack_Wannabe Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14404Posts: 526Members, Constellation
    I like it... it's great for countering those pesky silence ambushes Marines usually encounter. Numerous things benefit from this, and this *could* win a game.
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    QUOTE
    The moves are still sound for pub games as well. If you see someone in front on point, fall into a supportive position. If you're in the back, sweep the rear.

    Good for new players, who tend to conga line or don't cover their teammates.


    Aye, Necrosis, I've seen too many times this kind of things happen. Even if you tell people in-game, they may not always listen (because of that skulk sneakin up/a com's order/the music they are listening/they don't want to), or they may forget 5min later...

    When assigned to a squad, I usualy do go the last in order to form the rear guard since I know that nearly no-one will think about it (the number of ambushing skulks coming from behind I managed to kill simply by keeping the 6 of my teamates clear never cease to amaze me). And by forming the rear guard, I mean what I've been saying in this tactical postioning stuff, not just rushing forward at the rear of the squad.

    That's the reason why I added the graphics: this way, people may immediatly figure it out what I'm talking about. It's particularly friendly to new players, but to everyone else too.

    Thus, if you happen to encounter one of the situations described above, and you may remember what were the positions given, then you may put yourself where someone should have been, and ensure the safety of the squad.
    In fact even on your own, you can drastically enhance the chances of survival of your squad.

    If you can manage to organize it accordingly, it's even better. It may take more than one match, but if you keep on playing with the same people, you may eventually achieve something interesting.
    Not to mention that it maybe very stimulative to play this way.



    QUOTE
    I like it... it's great for countering those pesky silence ambushes Marines usually encounter. Numerous things benefit from this, and this *could* win a game.


    Thanks smile.gif
    Actually, I don't know if it could win a game, but I'm pretty sure that it may help alot, yes. wink.gif
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ManosManos Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1956Posts: 63Members
    good stuff, some good moves.
    and even if ur squad on a pub isnt positioning like this. you can just fill up a position ur teamm8's arent filling, like when nobody is checking the back, you do it. And if every1 is building you cover them.
    also let the shotty's look @ the ceilings and vents for ambushing skulks, while the hmg's are looking down the corridor.
    user posted image
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    QUOTE
    good stuff, some good moves.


    Well, thanx! tounge.gif

    QUOTE
    and even if ur squad on a pub isnt positioning like this. you can just fill up a position ur teamm8's arent filling, like when nobody is checking the back, you do it. And if every1 is building you cover them.
    also let the shotty's look @ the ceilings and vents for ambushing skulks, while the hmg's are looking down the corridor.


    That's exactly the kind of reaction I would like people to have. If most people can have this kind of reaction after reading this topic, then I think that I may consider it not being a total waste of time, but even a good thing. smile.gif
  • Juchel_ZeroJuchel_Zero Join Date: 2003-07-14 Member: 18155Posts: 74Members
    You could also do that for smaller squads like 2-3 people as a 3 marine squad seems much more frequent than a 5 marine squad.

    Like marine squad Austin(LA shock troop):


    Austin 1
    equip: shotgun, pistol
    role: point man, squad leader
    kill zone: 60% front, 15% left, 15% right, 10% back


    Austin 2
    equip: lmg, welder
    role: support, repair, cover, middle man, build
    kill zone: 20% front, 30% left, 30% right, 20% back


    Austin 3
    equip: lmg, mines
    role: covers back, fits emergency roles(build, shoot...), report info about aliens comming back side
    kill zone: 50% back, 20% left, 20% right, 10% front

    squad operates in line formation


    here was my example of small squad organistion



    It's nice to see that people are thinking tactical.
    Thank you for trying to enhance marine play.
    QUOTE
    Remember, with sensory, this is Metal Gear Selection, not Natural Quake.
    -Lolfighter
  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Posts: 3,039Members
    with a split like that a one side focus would obscure almost all your firepower.
    teh r33t4rd c0mmANDAR. EU NS League @ ensl.zanith.nl
    IPB Image
    (Sig by Eplekongen)
  • Juchel_ZeroJuchel_Zero Join Date: 2003-07-14 Member: 18155Posts: 74Members
    Well my squad could hug the wall so it has one side less to look at.
    That was a fast try on my part so don't expect it to be perfect.
    We could try the triangle formation for most firepower on all sides.
    QUOTE
    Remember, with sensory, this is Metal Gear Selection, not Natural Quake.
    -Lolfighter
  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Posts: 2,246Members
    It was very painful trying to get even my old clan members to work like this. Heck, we even had a military-career guy in the clan helping me out. It never got anywhere. I can see how it would be useful if your clan was really organized, and it's a nice thing to at least know about, but it's just not practical otherwise.

    In ravenshield, on the other hand, you die pretty much instantly. This kind of tactic is required if you want to survive. NS isn't exactly one-shot one-kill.

    I do appreciate the effort tho, double cookie points for the pictures. If you're interested, there's some more CQB stuff here (note: pdf format).
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,286Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    I've been waiting for someone to make one of these for a while now.


    ***WEBBED***
    -/AUS/- PS_Mouse
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    Wow! I was looking for the topic in order to give answers to feedbacks for a good couple of minutes before finally seeing it was webbed...
    Didn't thought it would be *that* valuable wink.gif


    Still, for the answers:


    QUOTE
    You could also do that for smaller squads like 2-3 people as a 3 marine squad seems much more frequent than a 5 marine squad.

    Like marine squad Austin(LA shock troop)


    Actually yes, it's more usual to see in-game squads having a number of squad members around 3 people.
    But as said before, this guide assumes more the role of "theorical" model, with directly applicable "on-the-field" issues.
    It has to be adapted to the various situations you will encounter while playing.
    You'll notice that the variety of real-time situations you might encounter in-game cannot be sumed up, so this guide can't possibly give a word on each and every kind of these situations.
    It mainly focuses on the most common and replicable situations marines usually encounter, as crossing T-shaped junctions, corners and so on.

    I'll still try to think more about your Austin squad idea, but as I said in my early posts, I really think that a squad should at least have 4members in it. The 5th, as you can see in the examples I gave, isn't completely vital, even if still very useful (at least for the added firepower).

    The number of people appointed to a squad is very important, I should have talked about it a little bit more in the introductive parts, but as the title of the topic said "illustrated" I didn't want to drown you people with too much text tounge.gif

    I should do it here then:




    Note: About the number of people in a squad:

    As you can see in my previous (and next) examples, I would have a squad ideally composed of 5-6 people in it.
    This number is given for a good coverage of the surroundings of the squad and for a good firepower capacity.
    I gave in my examples the following formula:
    - 2 people to lead the squad, opening the way, choosing the directions, taking out incoming hostiles.
    - 1-2 people that add their firepower to both front and rear, and usually holding a Welder as their sec weap.
    - 2 people assuming the important role of rear guard, covering the 6, and taking out ambushed enemies.

    That's my 5-6 model, but you can readapt it in your own way, and/or accordingly to the situation at hand.
    In a 5 members squad, you can have 3 people opening the path, and 2 people covering your six, if you expect to encounter strong resistance as you move forward.
    This can even be a 4Alphas and 1Delta to stick to the codenames I gave, if you're pretty sure that the risk of an ambush is nearly reduced to 0 in a given location:
    If we encounter serious resistance, I would usualy let my teamates do the job of dealing with the hostiles while covering the rear of the squad, because when everybody focuses on one side, it's when ambushed skulks are the most deadly. Here again, as I said, you'll have to trust your teamates to be able to take out the hostiles with their converging firepower. That's where and when being a marksman will really help your team.

    I think that at least 4 people must be assigned to a squad in order to give it enough efficiency and firepower to accomplish it's objectives without being completely wiped out.
    You can have a squad of more than 6 people (like in an all-marines rush), but this guide won't cover the efficient formations for such a big group, as it's mainly targeting small squad positioning. But you can still benefit from the placements models of a smaller squad given here.


    In the reply of Taboofires, a link redirects toward a really cool and well explained CQB (Close Quarter Battle) page. I can't help but wish you to go get a look as I've done because it might be useful in your game time and give you a few other ideas on positioning.
    In some of the examples of this page, the squad is composed of a total of 6 members:
    - The point man (leading the way)
    - The OIC (Officer In Charge) just by the side of the Point man
    - A 1st Assaulter
    - A 2nd Assaulter
    - A Corpsman
    - A Rear Security

    Just to give you another example of how much members may fit in a squad and how they are appointed. Just have a look to the page for more informations on this.
    And keep in mind that you'll have to adapt to the situation at hand.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    edited September 2003
    QUOTE
    It was very painful trying to get even my old clan members to work like this. Heck, we even had a military-career guy in the clan helping me out. It never got anywhere. I can see how it would be useful if your clan was really organized, and it's a nice thing to at least know about, but it's just not practical otherwise.



    This is true, the level of coordination it requires to perfectly achieve the described moves in their "scholar", theorical display here on the graphics to a real-time situation is really high.
    It would require alot of (daily) practice, and I don't think that much people (even you NS addicts other ther wink.gif)may have enough time to put it as perfectly as described, because it would require to know each other very well, know each other's habits, have the experience of coordinated operations etc.
    That's why Navy SEALS and other Action Groups are the best: they keep on training themselves over and over and over everyday and everynight... and then a little bit more.

    That is, in order to achieve perfect coordination.
    Here we are playing to NS, our lives are not really at stack, so mistakes are usually allowed.
    People don't have to move *perfectly* and in a strictly similar sense toward the displayed graphics i've done. They are just a theorical model that you may apply to your in-game sessions with direct applicable issues at hand (yeah I know, I already said it, but repetition may prove to be useful tounge.gif).
    Still, if they achieve to move as in the models, well wow! I would be really impressed and would be willing to call them the TSA-NS Team, for "TSA-Navy SEALS Team" wink.gif
    Or maybe assume they are dreaded "Silver Berets" vets wink.gif


    Eventually, I've posted this topic for what? 24hours? Not yet I think. In less than a day, you can't pretend to achieve a level of coordination that people may take months, or years of practice to achieve don't you?

    You can't expect to move in a complete and perfect motion according these models in less than a few hours, unless you are Really Damn Good.


    Take your time.

    If you are a clan member and would like to take maximum advantage of the advices in this topic, try them and keep on practicing with your usual buddies. everything will be integrated in time.

    It takes practice to achieve perfection.

    (Unless you are some kind of semi-god, or hoaxor that is tounge.gif)


    QUOTE
    In ravenshield, on the other hand, you die pretty much instantly. This kind of tactic is required if you want to survive. NS isn't exactly one-shot one-kill.


    I didn't said that those advices may not be applicable to other games than just NS.
    In fact, the first issue I had maid were for another game (a RPG in fact)n and then adaptated to NS.
    You may find it useful for another games, for sure.
    I just made sure situations specifical to NS were implemented in the processing (like the Lerk/spore issue).


    QUOTE
    I do appreciate the effort tho, double cookie points for the pictures. If you're interested, there's some more CQB stuff here (note: pdf format).


    Thanks for the dooble cookies tounge.gif
    Thanks for the link too, was very interesting. wink.gif
    Already integrated it in my previous post. smile.gif
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    2.6 SSTP Step-by-step: Situation D: Crossing a "X" junction


    This is probably the most difficult junction you may encounter (unless I missed a map where a 5-way corridor exists) in order to keep a sight of every direction. We'll assume that the shortest path to the objective assigned by the com is to go straight (up on the graphic).


    user posted image

    The team is coming from the bottom corridor.
    Here we can see that both Alpha1 and 2 are covering respectively the left and righ corridors. This allows Omega5 to cross the jonction and go get in position in the upper corridor. His Kill zone isn't drawn, but we''l assume that he has a good sight of everything that may com from this direction.
    Delta3 and 4 are sticking to their rear guard role.


    user posted image

    Here we can see that Omega5 is the most remote unit in the upper corridor. He's to stay in position until Alpha1 and 2 cease their protection, covering the left and right areas. In order to join back Omega5, they are strafing toward him, while keeping their zone under control.
    The important thing to notice here is how Delta4 moves: he passes beyond Alpha2 instead of staying behind him in a normal rear guard issue. That's because this way, he will be past the obstacle (the junction), and once in position, he will only have to cover one direction at a time, the one he came from. This will be clearer in the next pic.


    user posted image

    As said in for the previous pic, now Delta4 is in position. He only has to survey the position the team came from, thus allowing Delta3 to move safely toward his dedicated position, that is, past Alpha1, in the same fashion Delta3 did in the previous move.
    We'll notice that Delta4 slowly moves backward (even if this cannot be shown on the pic).
    Omega5 keeps on making sure that nothing comes from the upper corridor.
    Alpha1 and 2, while covering the left and right corridors, prepare themselves for the next move...


    user posted image

    Here we can see that both Delta3 and 4 are covering. They only have to survey what may come from one direction (the bottom part of the upper corridor where they are in) instead of three.
    Alpha1 and 2 have ceased their survey and move forward in order to take back the lead of the squad, while Omega5 still give them a protective coverage of the zone.
    From this point, the situation revolves back to a standard Situation-A positioning, and the team can move forth.
    This ends this part and the section of the SSTP about proper positioning in movement situations as situations involving obstacles like ladders can be dealt with a Situation-A positioning, the trick in only for the team to wait for the rear guard to have climbed to the upper level.
    I may add pics still, as footnotes in order to clairly show what I'm meaning.

    The next few posts will show some advices on the positioning of units in a room, in order to hold the ground (specificaly when a structure like a RT has to be built, or in order to protect an outpost, or while an alien RT is dealt with).

    As usual, feedbacks appreciated wink.gif
  • RaVeRaVe Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17538Posts: 3,516Members
    Just....beautiful....

    Sadly we don't really see this much in pubs eh?

    GW on this,hope to actually see more smile.gif So I can learn to counter them when I play aliens (which will be close to impossible without coordination on an alien team BTW)

    QUOTE (BobTheJanitor)
    The armory isn't broken, it's the players that are broken. And if you have a problem with humanity, you'll have to direct your ideas and suggestions to your deity of choice.
  • JeeRJeeR Join Date: 2003-08-09 Member: 19237Posts: 202Members
    QUOTE
    Just....beautiful....

    Sadly we don't really see this much in pubs eh?


    Truly, we don't see this much in pubs, but I can remember of certain games where coordination was something that could recall me somehow about the principles I'm talking about here.
    So maybe it's not just a dream to think that these will be well used properly in pubs.

    QUOTE
    GW on this,hope to actually see more  So I can learn to counter them when I play aliens (which will be close to impossible without coordination on an alien team BTW)


    lol smile.gif

    If you can managed to eliminate a squad that moves with this kind of coordination (and we'll assume that they are good players to achieve this then, with a good aim, backup from their com because as they are good players, they probably are on their way to their next WP) then you truly deserve your victory, in my opinion smile.gif
  • n4s7yn4s7y Join Date: 2003-04-18 Member: 15627Posts: 497Members
    Wow. Logic prevails!

    Although I don't agree with many of your formations, I've gotta say that the reasoning behind this is excellent. It would take a lot of experimenting to get the formations just right, and you still have to take into account the 3rd dimension in NS, i.e. skulks jumping up over your head. Due to this, formations in NS would have to be dynamic, you can't just constantly use one formation etc, your squad must adapt to the environment. One thing I'd like to point out is that marines aren't the only thing that could benefit from well organized tactical manuevers such as this. In fact, I believe aliens have a lot more to gain from organized manuevers then marines. Imagine this: an onos makes his way into a fortified marine area, which in itself can be very damaging. Now imagine having 3 or more skulks coming in undetected whilie the onos draws the marines attention and proceed to chomp off a few marines. Against most pubbies, and even some clannies such tactics would be devestating (of course, my example was pretty simple, there would of course be other more complex manuevers).

    It would be awesome if some clans would try this (IMHO most clans SHOULD be able to pull this off w/ practice). But as it stands, all this unfortunately is just theory, We can't predict its effectiveness w/o testing it.
    #findnsscrim
    <eR[Lux]> !addban SNiperMarine take it somewhere else, this is not a freak show


    O W N T!
  • Juchel_ZeroJuchel_Zero Join Date: 2003-07-14 Member: 18155Posts: 74Members
    I think a 5 people squad in a 10 people server is a little too much (4 is perfect I think).
    You could cover open spaces too as ns is more complicated than that.
    QUOTE
    Remember, with sensory, this is Metal Gear Selection, not Natural Quake.
    -Lolfighter
  • BuglerBugler Join Date: 2003-09-04 Member: 20561Posts: 76Members
    Jeer- I appreciate the time that you've obviously taken to draw the positions and explain them.
    If only we had that kind of dedication from marine players in the game smile.gif.

    Although, truth be told- it would be very worthwhile to practice those tactics, as I would agree with the guy that said any marine formation and coordination is a good thing. Fortunately, a little marine teamwork can easily turn a stalemate into a crushing defeat for the aliens.
  • Johny_CageJohny_Cage Join Date: 2003-02-06 Member: 13191Posts: 64Members
    I'd just like to state my oppinion wich is while marines would certainly benefit from organized formations the aliens would benefit from totally unorganized formations from a position sort of view. Nothing is more efficent then confusion in the marine ranks. Also a blinking fade can confuse the above organized squad and cause the people to lose their cover. A blinking fade moving from a marine's cover range into another's will no doubt make most of the marines aim for it making possible a swarm of aliens to do substantial damage.
    Also the above formation would no doubt have to be an end game one so either the aliens are at the last hive at wich point an organzed marine squad would be just as effective as an unargorganized one or the marines would face good alien resistance. So if the marines could get in such an organized squad why couldnt the aliens work as a team too ?
  • BurncycleBurncycle Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9759Posts: 2,290Members, NS1 Playtester
  • Marvin_The_WooMarvin_The_Woo Join Date: 2003-09-18 Member: 20979Posts: 6Members
    Impressive JeeR. I dind't expect that you know so many things about tactics. So, one time, let's try it! marine.gif
    They always ask to me: "Why did you become a Frontiersman?". And I always answer to them: "It's funny!"
  • Marvin_The_WooMarvin_The_Woo Join Date: 2003-09-18 Member: 20979Posts: 6Members
    Ok guys, seriously. I think tere are few problems that you have to know.
    1. U MUST have experienced players. I tried it with average players and it didn't work efficiently. Because they want to be hero or they are members of clans and play with their own tactics. And there are often morons in a NS games who disturb the games and players.

    2. A good commander. I know I don't tell you something new but it isn't easy to find a good commander, who KNOWS these tactics and how to play efficiently (important nodes, hive's location, using fast the command, how to build, etc).

    It's my opinion on this topic. The fact is that I often play on French servers (because I'm French), and the level skills of the players is variable. And french players are more often soldiers than commanders.

    P.S: JeeR, I want to play more with U! Snif...
    They always ask to me: "Why did you become a Frontiersman?". And I always answer to them: "It's funny!"
  • VictimVictim Join Date: 2003-09-26 Member: 21243Posts: 5Members
    Why does the formation move in a stop and go fashion? As far as I know, moving doesn't affect accuracy, so there's no real need. If the foward looking people move at a walking pace, then the marines walking backward should be able to keep up.

    Even if the marines are rather disorganized, you can have some of the benefits of a better team. Make a note of whoever is going last in your group. If you see their name pop up on the killed list, then turn around and start shooting. As long as they don't have heavy armor or JP, marines are pretty expendable after all.
  • cariocacarioca Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20511Posts: 921Members
    now i put u in check.
    in my map has this enginering room.
    how the comm will lead her marines...
    JPG
    JPG
    cc.JPG
    15K
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