Why the Bootcamp update has killed the game for me and any average player
MrChoke
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
Aside from how much harder it is to get on an open server, here is the real reason why this update has ended this game for me, after playing it all the way since beta.
I am an average player. And no matter how much I play, my Hive skill doesn't really change much any more (this assumes Hive isn't broken of course). So I am not going get any better. And since this AWFUL update, I can no longer enjoy the game at all. Why? Because the only servers I can go on now are ones that are double-up arrow servers. I am talking every server, every time. These are the people that apparently got far more time than me to play and far better FPS skills. So my only choice is to join these servers and get blown out game after game after game. Before this HORRENDOUS update I could at least find servers that had a mix of players. I was not always up against the PROs every time.
And here is another observation. I am not seeing rookies graduate enough to fill the non-rookie servers. Why do I not see any "=" servers are even one-up-arrow ones? Rarely do I see one. Why? Because I think these rookies quit the game. This bootcamp update has done nothing but make "average" players like my self quit too.
Thanks again UWE for destroying this game. I can only hope the numbers FALL because of this patch. I see the player counts. I see the server lists too. Your grandeose idea is FAIL. People like me are quitting too.
And to think, about a year ago, I had pushed very hard to try to get new players. I got like 25 people to buy the game for a big LAN party. Gee, I am not allowed to play with them any more am I?
I am an average player. And no matter how much I play, my Hive skill doesn't really change much any more (this assumes Hive isn't broken of course). So I am not going get any better. And since this AWFUL update, I can no longer enjoy the game at all. Why? Because the only servers I can go on now are ones that are double-up arrow servers. I am talking every server, every time. These are the people that apparently got far more time than me to play and far better FPS skills. So my only choice is to join these servers and get blown out game after game after game. Before this HORRENDOUS update I could at least find servers that had a mix of players. I was not always up against the PROs every time.
And here is another observation. I am not seeing rookies graduate enough to fill the non-rookie servers. Why do I not see any "=" servers are even one-up-arrow ones? Rarely do I see one. Why? Because I think these rookies quit the game. This bootcamp update has done nothing but make "average" players like my self quit too.
Thanks again UWE for destroying this game. I can only hope the numbers FALL because of this patch. I see the player counts. I see the server lists too. Your grandeose idea is FAIL. People like me are quitting too.
And to think, about a year ago, I had pushed very hard to try to get new players. I got like 25 people to buy the game for a big LAN party. Gee, I am not allowed to play with them any more am I?
Comments
Well, okay. I doubt your story that something changed in the composition of the players in an average server, but I'll be fair. @Soul_Rider Can you please confirm his story? I see double down arrows most of the time and you purport to be a below average player so you will be in a better position to confirm.
Edit - Actually, now that I think about it, I seem to have an easier time because rookies still go on regular servers anyway. I'm calling you on your bullshit.
Edit 2 - Well, I just went on a single down arrow server. But that is still 1 out of the many others.
time=rookies in new non-rookie servers
This is the first problem I am seeing with this post. How can you be an average player with every server being double up arrow? You are talking about every server, every time being double up arrow.
For reference, here is a graph showing the distribution of skill and other metrics.
I can take your words and use them for higher skilled players too.
For example:
I am an average player. And no matter how much I play, my Hive skill doesn't really change much any more (this assumes Hive isn't broken of course). So I am not going get any worse. And since this AWFUL update, I still can't enjoy the game at all. Why? Because the only servers I can go on are still ones that are double-down arrow servers. I am talking every server, every time. So my only choice is to join these servers and play with awful players.
What I am saying is Welcome To The Club. You may be on the opposite side of the skill spectrum as me but you have the same problems.
Do you want to know what the root cause of our shared problem? PLAYER RETENTION.
NS2 does not have the enough players for there to be any sort of realistic skill segmentation. Both the lower skilled and the higher skilled players would rather not play with the other. Both have to play together because there are not enough.
What is being done to increase player numbers? You can read about it at the ns2 development trello board here.
Bootcamp was just the beginning of trying to improve player counts.
As you can see, even a rookie server has equal skill to me.
I do have to agree to a degree. Since rookies have been stopped from joining normal servers, the balance of the servers has changed. This is great for rookies, but not so good for non-rookies.
Why? Well, a few rookies I have spoken to have recently bought the game and are leaving the game, thinking that only rookies play it. They see the low average numbers, see the rookies playing on rookies servers, and assume there are only rookies playing.
Player retention hasn't improved, at least not by a noticeable amount. So most of these rookies are not making the hours to get out of rookie status.
This means those of us bad NS2 players, who were at least better than people who would join the server without a clue, are now the worst players in NS2. It means we become the always beaten upon rookies, so we'll all leave, and player retention will go further into the red.
I don't agree with the ops anger, but yes, rookie retention does not seem to have improved, and now people like me are the worst players I can play with, meaning there is absolutely no reason for me to play this game, unless I want to get raped everytime I play.
And that sensation is the same for for the newly promoted rookies. Rookie only servers shield them from the harsh reality of the world, when they face it, they can't take it and leave..
It was used as a player retention idea, and even I agreed with it. In practice, there are however even more flaws.
At least all the high skilled players can rejoice. Rookies aren't staying, low-skilled players will now also be leaving, so the average skill on servers should go up now....
Average players firing up there smurf accounts to feel atleast equal on rookie only servers.
Find the error.
Yeah except a lot of the high skilled players seem to get their fun by stomping the lesser skilled players...
3000+ guys who stay on a server where the next highest skill is under 1500.. And if you point out another server with 2000+ players their response is "I like it better here"
Yeah that's because it's easier for them to feel "pro"
When I joined this community it was great. People helped rookies, high skill players would actually make an effort to balance teams, and the few elitist ****heads could easily be ignored.
Now almost nobody helps rookies. High skill players seem to intentionally seek out the lowest skill servers they can. And going through a game without hearing some elitist prick yelling at his team for being "bad" is getting pretty rare.
I think instead of rookie only a better solution would've been to have servers that allow all the average casual players. (under 1500 hive with under 2.0 kdr at least) that would leave the white servers for the pro level players (many of whom do nothing but ruin games they're in by being SO far above everyone else.
Of course you still get smurfing, but they could swiftly be kicked when they start ruining games.
Just the other day someone was comparing a 3000 player against a <1000 player as being like a NFL game... In reality it's more like a NFL team facing of against a peewee team of 10 yr olds..
I initially suggested this but was met by mixed responses lol
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/140308/3-types-of-servers-to-help-with-rookies-stomping-smurfs-and-player-retention-need-suggestions/p1
We are actually tracking a number of metrics since we re-started NS2 development. One of those is new player retention. Right now, we're tracking approx 10% higher new player retention than before we started, it's been tracking up (albeit slowly) at the moment according to the data. This is in stark contrast to us not really holding onto new players as much for a long time.
Concurrent average players is also up from <226 average when we started to 331 average today. While this could be attributed to a number of sales, the increase in new player retention is clearly from the changes we're making to the new player experience. We'll continue to try to improve the way new players can get into the game, as it's clear that once players know more of the basics they are much more likely to come back and stick around.
A 10% increase in an already low value is not enough of a difference to be noticed by players. With more non-rookie players now the recipients of the skill-gap problem, it would be interesting to track how player retention of low skilled non-rookies has been affected by the changes.
A game like NS2 needs more like a 200% increase in player retention across skill levels to be noticeable.
Edit - The concurrent average has already dropped to 327 since you made your post. You will not see the true indicators of retention until the game is not on discount for a 2-3 month period.
Edit 2 - How much of that rookie player retention is from smurf accounts of current players and their alt accounts which are obviously not going anywhere?
I am not trying to sound negative, merely pointing out that the retention rate you are mentioning has so many variables that a 10% increase is well within the bounds of a statistical anomaly, and nothing like what it would take to show any form of legitimate retention is happening.
So the argument "there only pro players around on white servers" is just nonsense.
I think its the exact opposite.
Last weekend i played on multiple servers and saw nearly only marine wins.
Why? cause white "pros" have some real issues playing aliens these says.
And im not talking about rounds against >3000 skill marines. Im talking about rounds against average marines with 1500 skill.
But its interisting that we have players who played the game over a year and are still so bad that they even struggle against players who play the game the 1st time.
Small tip, its not the devs fault that you cant improve in any way and need players who are new to the game to feel good.
I mean, it not like we have these 3500 skill players on every server in every round.
You fail against average pub players and blaming the devs?
Cmon.
Perhaps you simply have to wait a while before the next rookie wave enters the regular pool of players before you can find people of similar skills as you're used to.
Well, okay. I honestly never noticed a difference, but unlike the OP, you are a credible person so I'll take your word for it. Seems odd to me though.
Thank you for basically agreeing with me. That is exactly what I wanted to say. About the anger, well I can't help it. I loved this game. And they ruined it for me.
@MoFo1
You have a great suggestion and a solution for the average (or sub-average) player:
I think instead of rookie only a better solution would've been to have servers that allow all the average casual players. (under 1500 hive with under 2.0 kdr at least) that would leave the white servers for the pro level players (many of whom do nothing but ruin games they're in by being SO far above everyone else.
What exactly defines a rookie now??? I think its number of hours played isn't it? That is stupid. The game tracks how good you are in every other aspect by your skill level. If you want to keep this bootcamp idea, you need to track SKILL not TIME_PLAYED.
So my only option to enjoy the game again is to hack it somehow and create a "smurf" account? I don't know how to do that other than re-buy the game with another Steam account. Oh hey! Is that the motivation for bootcamp UWE? Do you want me to buy the game again? You know what, if you back out this bullsh*t bootcamp update, I will. I promise.
@dePARA
I am not blaming the devs for anything, just merely pointing out that their player retention plans and results are not as cut and dried as they think. I have no issue with being beaten soundly every round I play for NS2, it has been that way for a couple of years now. I am not going anywhere.
But this topic isn't about me, wasn't made by me, I am just pointing out the way it is.
I stick around UWE & NS2 out of some sense of belonging, so the problems I pointed out don't affect me sticking around, but I am not everyone. Like I said, get a measure up and see how much the retention issues have been solved, or how much they have just moved to a different unmeasured player demographic.
Wich is kinda stupid cause the reason i mentioned above.
And about the player retention:
There many players out there who buy a game, play it around 10 hrs and move on to the next game.
They end up with over 500 titles in the library, 80% never started.
No tutorial, mentor program or whatever can hold this kind of players.
And the cheaper NS2 get, the more you will have these players in the game.
It seems in times of steam where you can download cheap games 24/7 from multiple genres without the need to leave the house didnt bind players to games anymore like in the past.
I remember times where you have to go to an shop, buy and CD, go back to home and install it then.
After all this "work" , starting the game the 1st time was like an 1st reward.
Today you click on download, waiting 10 min and thats it.
"Oh the game is not the way i thought" who cares.
Repeat downlowprocess from above
Yes, I am blaming the DEVs. They did the change. I am sure their intentions were good. They don't want to sabotage their own game. But they did not think this through. They missed the forest for the trees here. Its not going to keep rookies any better. All it will do is disgruntle existing players.
I am going give my skill number from Hive. I hesitated to do so before from all the flamers that are going say "You suck" and "you should quit", yada yada yada. Its about 780. And I tell you what, I can share an endless number of screen shots where a 780 score gives you double-down arrows on almost every single non-rookie server, every day. And when I join a server that shows the skill number to the right of names, yeah they are all around 1200, 1300. Clearly far higher than me.
Up until this awful update, I never cared about my skill number. I didn't even know it. Now after every set of games I go out there and look at it. Am I getting better?? Will I get to enjoy the game again? The answer is NO. I know I won't get any better. Like Soul_Rider says, maybe its age who knows. Now I get to be raped every game I play.
The million dollar question DIRECTED TO UWE:
Where are all of the 500 to 1000 range players at?????? They are too high to be rookie. They are to low to be pro, I don't see them on these servers. Prove to me that they didn't quit just like I am about to do. Where are they?
I don't care that your intentions were good to try to help the game get players. You are wrong. It is doing the opposite.
The skill in pubs is at it's lowest, maybe you are focusing too mush on the hive points. Or maybe you writed with your anger after a losing streak. Just take a break and see you in 1 week
I don't think you can reproach anything to the dev, they only took out of the loop the rookies with <20 hours. You should be able to compete against others with enough hours even if your aim/mechanics are not perfect, just by map awareness or positionning (unless you play at 5fps). NS is a competitive minded game from the start, you can always improve (even if it's only by teamplay after a certain point). If you only played with rookies until now it can be unsettleling but it's on you to relearn the game
Edit : I would love to replay the game when every server was higher than me (even if there were no hive point at that time), with stronger opponent AND teammate than me, having to spectate them to understand how they play ect...
Yes, I think that is the answer. Re-think the idea of what a "rookie" is. Or re-purpose some of these rookie servers for this mode. It would solve the problem.
1500 hive score is way too high. There are not many players above 1500. A KD of 2 is even worse. The top 10% of KDR recorded in ns2 starts at ~1.67. Setting it to 1500 and 2 KDR would make it so the top skill could never play.
A rookie is now defined as someone under level 3 in hive. Your hive level is calculated as follows:
It takes 14-21 hours to get out of rookie mode.
Just the other night I was trying to find a pub and the first 2 servers I joined had average skill of 550 and then 700. They are there. Then I just quit ns2 for the night because I could not find a good game.
http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/10288601
You win and lose rounds like everyone else.
So where are all the nonstop losing stomp rounds you descibed?
Your hive history shows that you won 50% of the last rounds.
And 13 of the games where BEFORE februar 2nd (where the rookie only servers where released)
You have lost 7 of these 13 rounds. How is this possible?
So your "nonstop" stomp rounds are the 7 rounds after the "rookie only servers" release?
You won 4 of them btw.
W/L ratio is 50% across the board, what's the commotion?
Wonderful. You found my profile. Let the flaming begin. How the hell did you find my current name? I haven't played under MrChoke in years. I type that into hive and I get some weird "Higher than Goku on" crap which I have never been or even heard of. But nowhere does that take you to my current name.
Ok, so yeah I win and lose like everybody else. I never said my team is losing. I am said I am losing. Losing my ass. Getting "bit up" and shot up like never before. I see my skill level is down to 750 now. Could be because I played last night, got owned hard as usual and quit. I guess my skill level is changing. Going down. I wonder what it was a year ago when this game was still fun? Like I said until recently I never looked and didn't care.
Mr. number cruncher, give me the average hive skill of the games I've playing on since bootcamp? I will guarantee it is at least 1100, probably closer to 1300. Looking up my profile isn't doing anything to take away from my point. This update has split the player base in two. And if you are in the middle, YOU LOSE.
The middle, the average hive skill for all players is ~980. The average hive skill for player with over 100 hours, otherwise veterans, is about ~1275.
I do populate empty servers. Some weeks I do it every day in the most terrible time schedules. It takes me less than 10 minutes to get some players. Enough for me to get some practice in pregame and have fun.
And the funniest part is that nowadays at least half the server ends up filling up with rookies... people that just reached level 3 and even some green players that join there instead of a Rookie only server... Isn't that precisely what you are searching for? I can send you a couple screenshots next time if you don't believe me
I would suggest you to have a little more patience with the new system instead of calling the doomsday just a couple of days after Bootcamp have appeared. All of us have suffered some weeks in which we seem to have terrible luck when searching servers of our own skill... you get a little pissed off and you leave the game for a couple of days or a week, then you return and everything is fun again.
1200 is too low.. I myself have reached 1600 before and I'm nowhere near the "pro" level..
Now if he limited it to under like 1500-1800 skill that would go a long way towards truly making the server " noob friendly" as it would get rid of most of the people i see in there ruining games...
Of course there are still players with low hive skill that have kdr over 2.0.. But that's a problem with being rated purely by win/loss...