Vulkan & Natural Selection 2

24

Comments

  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    edited February 2015
    devel wrote: »
    All these DX versions are just a marketing fluff.
    Not really, they do expose new GPU hardware features, faster and possibly cleaner/simpler functions - developers could benefit, it's just hard to learn thing from scratch each year, when you are used to something. You would also have to turn your game engine upside-down to benefit. The Windows version lock-in is unfortunate, but I can understand it from the developer standpoint (If somebody told me to reprogram the same thing for older versions dating back 10 years, I would not hold my sanity :) ). And there is the marketing standpoint :p

    OpenGL Next has it's place, as OpenGL 3 had it's place. They churn out new versions faster then I can learn them. There are many functions now, that are obsolete and I am not even speaking of extensions(lol anisotropic filtering is still not core functionality), that have better alternative and it is a big mess overall (it's stupid C-like api, checking your input on run-time wasting your CPU and forcing you to write unreadable code, while it can technically be easily done for 20 years now compile-time). It uses stupid paradigms sometimes, and it does not stick to them (some functions are bindless some not). It is hard to learn for a new guy. I say burn it and make clean new shiny modern API.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited February 2015
    Xarius wrote: »
    NS2's biggest problem is its CPU performance, no?
    Don't see how DX12 would help with that.

    The gpu doesnt do all the rendering, the cpu still has to actually prepare the frames.

    Also, on a separate note, while I do like OpenGL better than DX because it is cross-platform and stuff, I think it's going to be a while before we see OpenGL NG.

    And, does anyone know what's the point of DX11 in NS2?
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    coolitic wrote: »
    The gpu doesnt do all the rendering, the cpu still has to actually prepare the frames.
    Or does it?
    coolitic wrote: »
    And, does anyone know what's the point of DX11 in NS2?
    IMHO none. The developement effort was spread too much between DX11 and OpenGL, for any of the two to show any benefits.

  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    As a DX11 user I have to say the game is a lot smoother for me on DX11 than DX9. It just feels better, I can't explain it, there is a smoothness to it. There is also a couple of extra fps...
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    krOoze wrote: »
    @Nordic That's not how kernels work. Faster boot, yes. Faster apps start, certainly. Faster file transfer, hardware accelerated video decoding, even faster GPU performance (by drivers and better closer to metal driver model), why not. Less energy usage, less memory usage, more responsive GUIs, very likely thing. Concurrent (multithreaded performance, multiprocess performance), certainly possibility. Toned down background processes like antivirus, firewall, indexation, defragmentation and desktop GUI (which you should disable for mesurement anyway), quite believable. Faster scripts and other virtual machines (Java, C# looking at you), yeah, maybe. Faster heap memory allocation, yeah, perhaps there is still some space for improvement for some types of usage. Better server and virtual performance, yeah, thats what they wanted to achieve.
    More FLOPS, naah, nope, not gonna happen, not without recompiling your app with AVX or something. If anyone gets some improvement, they can't measure properly, don't know what they are measuring or are using bad timer for that.
    52it.jpg
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    edited March 2015
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    EVERYONE, not just 1 party (filthy, dirty, windows users, EUGH! I feel violated just THINKING that people would willing use that Virus-Absorbtion device)

    It's old-fashioned, uninformed thinking like this that halts progress, most recent studies show that as an OS Microsoft Windows had far fewer security vulnerabilities discovered last year than either Linux, or the worst offender, OS X.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/26/windows_beats_apple_linux_with_fewest_bugs_for_2014/

    Call me when windows stops having Viruses, and I'll believe you.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    edited March 2015
    Don't care about viruses, because it was not too hard to avoid them on xp.

    Specifically for NS2, the advantages of using a real OS are just better debuggability and scriptability of controls.
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    edited March 2015
    @Nordic
    W8.1 vs W7: 3013/2892 = plus 4 % (not 10%)
    Linux vs W7 2785/2892 = minus 4 % (not plus 25 %)

    Well now seriously, there's something really wrong with your measurements. x86 has no reason to f up that hard. Most likely, if I may quote myself:
    krOoze wrote: »
    If anyone gets some improvement, they can't measure properly, don't know what they are measuring or are using bad timer for that.

    There's no mechanic that I know of (other than human factor) that would improve arithmetic (pure computation), so it's better to be skeptical about the results. I guess I could try W8.1 vs Linux myself, but its getting little bit OT in this thread.
    devel wrote: »
    using a real OS
    Oh yes! Get that good ol' flame war started up :D
    I had no viruses ever, not on any OS. It's about user education. But it is truth that from technical standpoint Windowses rely on antiviruses, while Linuxes rely on blind faith, that no one cares to put viruses in such small comunity and on controling software sources. If we are talking about security overall, remember OpenSSL, putting all OSes at risk.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2015
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    EVERYONE, not just 1 party (filthy, dirty, windows users, EUGH! I feel violated just THINKING that people would willing use that Virus-Absorbtion device)

    It's old-fashioned, uninformed thinking like this that halts progress, most recent studies show that as an OS Microsoft Windows had far fewer security vulnerabilities discovered last year than either Linux, or the worst offender, OS X.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/26/windows_beats_apple_linux_with_fewest_bugs_for_2014/

    Call me when windows stops having Viruses, and I'll believe you.

    That's Naivety of the highest level. Windows will never stop having viruses, but windows users recognise that, the problem is Linux and Mac users who think they don't have to worry about viruses, they end up spreading most of them.

    There was a botnet discovered last year consisting of around 300,000 machines, all Macs. The reason less viruses are actively running on Linux is because no-one uses it as a client OS. Oh, except of course, Android, that Linux based virus ridden monstrosity. Why the most viruses? Because it is the most prevalent.

    You seem to think it is security holes in windows which cause the problem, I have shown you that Linux and Mac OS are actually bigger security risks with more and more serious flaws. Still you don't understand people attack Windows because it is profitable. I hope you get your wish, and everyone but a small dedicated hardcore switch to Linux, I'll stay on windows free from viruses, while your lovely 'safe' OS gets it's heart ripped out.

    I work in IT by trade, and my interests lie in security. Sure IE11 is a far worse browser than Chrome and Safari, I'll give you that for sure, but as an OS, windows is far more secure and stable than Linux. I've used Linux in the past, and probably will again in the future*, but right now, Windows is the better OS.

    *Once Linux is run by someone over than it's creator..


    Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.

    http://www.gamespot.com/articles/directx-12-can-combine-nvidia-and-amd-cards/1100-6425565/
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2015
    It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Obraxis wrote: »
    It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.

    I think a new computer and a better graphics card is the silver bullet. And you get to have better performance in ALL your games. Win-win (except for the other games part, because we only play NS2 right? RIGHT?)

  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Obraxis wrote: »
    It's unlikely we will create a DirectX12 patch for NS2. The CDT simply does not have the time or people to take on such an endeavor. We have our hands full working on DX9 and OpenGL for Linux. Now, if we were to get a couple of specialist Renderer engineers then it might be possible, but their use could be better put to increasing renderer and shader performance within the current render paths we already have, would it not? DirectX12 is not a silver bullet to performance in NS2.

    I think a new computer and a better graphics card is the silver bullet. And you get to have better performance in ALL your games. Win-win (except for the other games part, because we only play NS2 right? RIGHT?)

    Other games.........exist???

  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    Other games.........exist???
    Blasphemy!!

  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    But pleaseee! my soul is pure! My C: drive has never seen another installation I beg of you!
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    edited March 2015
    @Yojimbo Alright, just this time. But you better play your least favorite map ten times! :D
    EDIT: And you better not have D: drive :p
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    krOoze wrote: »
    @Yojimbo Alright, just this time. But you better play your least favorite map ten times! :D
    EDIT: And you better not have D: drive :p

    Oh but I do :O

  • TurbineTurbine Join Date: 2012-09-13 Member: 159160Members
    edited March 2015
    They should use glNext, not dx12!! It requires an extensive recoding anyway, not to mention glNext will be for all platforms.

    Also I've been using Windows 10 for the past 4 months, Win 8.1 and 7.. Yet I can easily say overall 7 is the fastest in general tasks. When I downgraded to 8.1 from 8.0 things were sluggish. In 10 it started out generally faster, but has become slower since. This was all without an antivirus, firewall and minimal startup.
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    edited March 2015
    Turbine wrote: »
    for all platforms.
    Well for DX11 capable cards and on Linux and Windows. That said, AMD, NVidia and Intel must accept the standard first (They will be the ones to do actual coding, after Khronos benevolently releases OpenGL Next spec.). Also are you prepared to be the tester for them, untill they get the drivers right?
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Shoehorning DX12 into the existing engine will not help.
  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2015
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    I have windows 8.1 and windows 7. I have benchmarked both OS'es using clean installs on my machine. Windows 8.1 is a faster, leaner and better performing OS than win 7. The thing that stopped people migrating to Win8 was the GUI, nothing more. People got so stressed about the loss of the start button most people never even tried Win 8. If you can get over the fact that the start menu isn't perfect, you very quickly find win 8 to be a more stable and responsive OS than win 7.

    What stopped people migrating to windows 8 wasn't just the loss of the start button. There's no killer app; the UI isn't more usable, it's just been changed for change's sake. Windows 7 looks sleek and professional; windows 8 looks like it was designed by a five year old, with giant garishly coloured buttons and an app store nobody on desktops asked for.

    Windows 8.1 allows you to hide most of the ugly, but there's still no killer app.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2015
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    But pleaseee! my soul is pure! My C: drive has never seen another installation I beg of you!

    Your commented made me write this song: An ode to NS2

    NS2: You're Beautiful (from James Blunt's song - You're Beautiful)

    My game is brilliant

    My game is brilliant
    My drive is pure
    I saw a vision
    of that I'm sure.
    It dragged me to the menu
    The dial was spinning
    But I won't lose no time on that
    Cause I've got a plan.

    You're beautiful. You're beautiful
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    I saw the game in a sea of lame
    And I know what to do,
    Cause I'll never tire of you.

    Yes, you caught my eye
    With your stratigise
    You could see from my face that I was,
    flying high.
    And I don't think I'll see it again,
    But we shared a moment that will last 'til the end


    You're beautiful. You're beautiful
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    I saw your grace in a crowded space
    And I know what to do,
    Cause I'll never tire of you.

    You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    There must be a unicorn with a smile on his face
    When he thought up that I should play with you
    But it's time to face the truth
    I will never tire of you.

    EDIT: I will try to record this and share.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2015
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    But pleaseee! my soul is pure! My C: drive has never seen another installation I beg of you!

    Your commented made me write this song: An ode to NS2

    NS2: You're Beautiful (from James Blunt's song - You're Beautiful)

    ~song~

    EDIT: I will try to record this and share.

    That is pretty good but it needs to be more ns2 themed. Kind of like:
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Nordic,

    Try this one: its about @Kalopsia's lerk play. The verses go Lerk then Marine then Lerk then Marine

    My lerk is brilliant

    My lerk is brilliant
    My bite is pure
    I fly like an angel
    Of that I'm sure
    I bit them on sub-access
    then I saw some more
    But I won't lose no health on that
    Cause I dived some more

    You're beautiful. You're beautiful
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    you stuck your face, into my space
    And I don't know what to do,
    Cause I can't aim at you.

    Yes, you caught my eye
    As I fly on by
    You couldn't see my lerk as I was
    Flying high
    And I don't think that, you'll see me again
    But you will share a moment that will last 'til the end

    You're beautiful. You're beautiful
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    I saw your grace in a crowded space
    And I know what to do,
    Cause I'll shotgun it to you.

    You're beautiful. You're beautiful.
    You're beautiful, it's true.
    I must be an angel, with a smile on my face
    When I thought I could surprise you
    But it's time to face the truth,
    I will spike it to you.
  • KalopsiaKalopsia Join Date: 2003-05-15 Member: 16331Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Cannon_FodderAUS

    bahahaha that's fucking gold Cannon i LOL'ed.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Kalopsia so... about that axe lerk kill.... Aussie server tmr night?? j/king. Glad you liked it.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    Soul_Rider wrote: »

    Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.

    http://www.gamespot.com/articles/directx-12-can-combine-nvidia-and-amd-cards/1100-6425565/

    Now that's interesting, would be great if they could pull it off.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2015
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »

    Microsoft are expected to announce that DX12 will enable you to run multiple graphics cards, from any vendor. Apparently they are announcing that DX12 is able to see all gfx as one resource and can utilise them all.

    http://www.gamespot.com/articles/directx-12-can-combine-nvidia-and-amd-cards/1100-6425565/

    Now that's interesting, would be great if they could pull it off.

    Jeez do people not click on hyperlinks anymore, this was mentioned in the OP lol.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    edited March 2015
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    Now that's interesting, would be great if they could pull it off.

    We can already run multiple graphics cards from any vendor.

    btw, the glNext has an official name 'Vulkan' starting from this week.
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    devel wrote: »
    btw, the glNext has an official name 'Vulkan' starting from this week.
    Which seems to be Mantle in disguise :p

  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Mantle's come to an end now hasn't it? It was great as it served as a push for Microsoft to get DirectX 12 improvements out!
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