Natural Selection 2 News Update - Build 206 released

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Comments

  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Posts: 945Members
    flawed logic in trying to compare clogs to a wall of defense and offense chambers.
    Philadelphia is a PvP server
  • VenatosVenatos Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149762Posts: 215Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Flayra!
    dont take that whining seriously, its the same every week, sometimes more, sometimes less, but its allways there.

    206 is a good step! obviously there are many screws that need some tightening or loosening to make it fit perfectly but one can see the potential once that screws are adjusted!

    all the core mechanics are there, we just need the exo and 1-2 months of balancing and 1.0 is ready.(i know its not that easy, but im a hopeless optimist;)
  • TinkerTinker Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14395Posts: 275Members
    I find it amazing that people rage so hard about optimization when there are news articles all over the place talking about how they are working on it and in what way. Guess people would rather scream like a useless baby than read the news.
  • GeENiEGeENiE Join Date: 2002-06-09 Member: 740Posts: 151Members, Constellation
    i think some people are forgetting something: Beta guidelines

    My Steam id

    Follow @NS2news to get updated on anything NS2 related!
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,660Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts admin
    As Charlie said, iterate iterate iterate. We can release good builds, we can release bad builds. We can admit that yesterdays build was not a good build.

    All of us here in the office read your feedback, every post of it. You don't need to rage for us to hear you. We're people, so rage, personal attacks and anger actually make us sad. We're doing our best to make the game better - so to read an 'angry thread' can cause us to retreat a bit, and be less likely to openly discuss things with you all and try new things.

    Right now in the office we are discussing possible hotfixes and changes based on all the measured, polite feedback you are giving. Keep it measured, keep it friendly, and we will keep on busting gut to get this game to where it needs to be.
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
    Chat with the UWE team: Charlie | Max | Brian 1 | Cory | Brian A | Dushan | Lukas | Steve
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    If anything this is evidence that releasing half finished stuff isn't received very positively by the community, even if you tell them that it's not complete. I always thought it would be better to hold off updating things until they are more polished. People treat new builds like a patch for an already released game. I know that it's still in development, but surely it's at a stage where you can hold off updating for a week or two until you feel it's working as intended. I guess we won't see that approach until the game has been officially released.
    In-game name: Wilson

    My Crosshair Pack: LINK
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,802Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Im going to say this because it needs to be said, honestly. People come on the forums and may complain, ######, cry, vent or whatever about the game. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, whatever. The thing that really is starting to get old is how everyone stands up to defend UWE about X, Y or Z. If people did not care about the game, they would not come and post their thoughts. They would email UWE and ask for a refund.

    Don't take the insults as personal attacks, take it as frustration from a player, a player that really wants to enjoy and play this game. From what ive seen (and heard) most competitive players are disappointed with the direction the game is heading recently. NS1 was an amazing game that blending so much skill and tactics, without the need to unnecessary caps or restrictions. NS2 seems to be changing what the core focus of the game is, in many ways which i will not even begin to lay out here. The point is that if the game continues down this path, I, and i think many others, will NOT play this game.

    Obviously at times the feedback may come off as insulting or rude or whatever, but for the most part any constructive post about ideas on how to change or improve things is met by trolling and ridicule from the other half of the community, leading to the rage posts.
  • nunofgsnunofgs Join Date: 2005-03-18 Member: 45717Posts: 11Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Apr 26 2012, 12:17 PM) »
    As Charlie said, iterate iterate iterate. We can release good builds, we can release bad builds. We can admit that yesterdays build was not a good build.

    All of us here in the office read your feedback, every post of it. You don't need to rage for us to hear you. We're people, so rage, personal attacks and anger actually make us sad. We're doing our best to make the game better - so to read an 'angry thread' can cause us to retreat a bit, and be less likely to openly discuss things with you all and try new things.

    Right now in the office we are discussing possible hotfixes and changes based on all the measured, polite feedback you are giving. Keep it measured, keep it friendly, and we will keep on busting gut to get this game to where it needs to be.


    Damnit Hugh. How did you become so thoughtful, level-headed and well spoken? I hope you guys can ignore all the personal attacks because some people just can't help themselves. Focus on filtering the feedback out of the angry texts and keep on doing what you're doing.

    PS: I'd just like to say that it's a BREATH of fresh air to actually hear a company admitting that X version wasn't their best work (even if I don't agree). Most companies would crucify an employee for saying something like that and would never admit to anything even close. I truly believe that you guys are breaking ground on how to build a community-funded company as well as a kickass game.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • BVKnightBVKnight Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147496Posts: 194Members
    I have only played three games in the new build (woot lunch break!), but one thing I noticed I want to bring to everyone's attention:

    Why has the fade's blink been time-limited? No matter whether I have max energy or not, I cannot blink for more than a few seconds until I get dropped out of blink, still with plenty of energy.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    Quoting invTempest my priority for an hotfix would be :

    - Make hydras cost pres again. Hydra spam is no fun.

    - Wave spawning is very very bad and needs to be reverted. Not sure how we go from 8 second spawns with emergency spawning at 4 dead aliens to 20+ second spawn times.

    Also I'm not sure about lerk speed, but slow on turn is for sure annoying.
  • MelatoninMelatonin Babbler Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14551Posts: 1,033Members, Constellation
    Flayra, I've been guilty of whining in the past, but under it all, its because the game is so damn awesome that people get so emotional.

    keep the faith man, if you can glean anything through the drama, its a bonus, but don't let it get you down.

    NS2 is amazing.

    what you are doing is amazing.

    I have so much fun every single time I fire it up.

    thanks to you and the rest of the crew.
  • sebusebu Join Date: 2011-09-21 Member: 122375Posts: 69Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Apr 26 2012, 11:26 AM) »
    Wow, lots of rage here today. Everyone just calm down - it's going to be all right.

    - We've stated about 1000000 times that performance is our number one priority. Max and Dushan are busting their butts in that department. See this.
    - We've also made it very clear from day one that this is an open beta. We release our current build to you every week. Those builds are definition not perfect. If we are going to continue making strides forward, we have to be allowed to fail. Two steps forward, 1 step back. This is a healthy state of affairs.

    Of course we need more tuning, and we will do so. But making personal attacks and being outright nasty helps no one.


    We completely understand this, but the thing that makes even us "the community" sweat, that you do this big changes in state where the 1.0 shouldn't be so far away.

    It seems that its still in completely experimenting state, that just now you see your critical game designing errors. "deleting" drifters is really big thing to me atleast.

    I know that you have huge pressure to keep on track whit ns2, but this was sort of "wake up call" to me at least, that its nowhere near condition, that could be released in 4-6 months.

    TBH, personally this has been my fear all along. As i have seen that the basic resflow just doesn't kind of work right now.

    Still its not bad thing to try something out and really listening your community. Thats the thing i like in UWE.

    I just hope that you would keep us informed IF you have any feelings that the summer release wouldn't make it. GOGO UWE!!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 158Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    After a few hours play just a few thoughts.

    The first thing is the gorge changes. I quite like them although UW have stated that they will introduce a system where if you die and don't go Gorge again within a certain time that their builds will disappear. What about if that Gorge crashes out the game, or has to leave for whatever reason? By the time he gets back in game, if he can, then all his stuff will be gone. Doesn't seem very fair. I crash about once per 2 hours play on average and know others crash more and others less. Clog is a good idea but needs work. Hydras seem more useful now too which I like. I'm sort of scared of them again which feels right and care is needed to take them out.

    Growing Whips and Crags etc from infestation is a good idea as its more intuitive.

    Players are going Fade and dying easily so after a while fades are not common in the match. They don't seem consistent damage wise either. I took several direct hits from grenades and gunfire in one round and did not die yet was killed with one SG hit from 10 feet away in another. Both times I had Carapace.

    Same with the lerk. I was just getting the hang of it after a few weeks practise and now its so slow its just target practice for the Marines. Fly into a room with turrets and you only have seconds to do anything.

    Onos is very slow even at full speed. Due to the relative lack of long straight areas, building speed up is not easy. Glad the loud stomp noise has gone though, it was playing hell with my Tinnitus.

    Bit of a big performance drop but I know its being worked on.

    20 second spawn time is a bit much as that is a big jump from what it was.

    Had some good long games with back and forwards play so am enjoying it. ARC trains are more common and could do with some changes. Limit to a certain number that can be built or something. Turret spam is still something everyone on servers complains about too.

    Roll on 207

    Sal
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,688Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Some of us overreacted - sorry!

    Should have waited to test this in a real competitive match.

    So ignore my first feedback(tho you cant really see it as feedback :P), ill try to post something useful/constructive later.

    PS: <3 hugh!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScottSchafferRScottSchafferR Join Date: 2010-02-24 Member: 70703Posts: 16Members
    I like the idea of gorges not paying resources for structures. Seems like it can be over powered if too many people became gorge. Remember old school ns1 where there was just 1 or 2 gorges in a game? Maybe bring something like this back into the game. In a 6v6 max of 1 gorge. 12v12 max of 2 gorges, 16v16 max of 3 gorges. Just an idea.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 26 2012, 05:26 PM) »
    Quoting invTempest my priority for an hotfix would be :

    - Make hydras cost pres again. Hydra spam is no fun.

    - Wave spawning is very very bad and needs to be reverted. Not sure how we go from 8 second spawns with emergency spawning at 4 dead aliens to 20+ second spawn times.

    Also I'm not sure about lerk speed, but slow on turn is for sure annoying.


    Ho, I forgot about loud skulk walk noise for marines, it's not very good. What you need is a consistent, precise sound system and a good mix, not a quick hack like that.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SpaPalSpaPal Join Date: 2012-02-28 Member: 147699Posts: 48Members
    QUOTE (xDragon @ Apr 26 2012, 10:24 AM) »
    Im going to say this because it needs to be said, honestly. People come on the forums and may complain, ######, cry, vent or whatever about the game. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, whatever. The thing that really is starting to get old is how everyone stands up to defend UWE about X, Y or Z. If people did not care about the game, they would not come and post their thoughts. They would email UWE and ask for a refund.

    Don't take the insults as personal attacks, take it as frustration from a player, a player that really wants to enjoy and play this game. From what ive seen (and heard) most competitive players are disappointed with the direction the game is heading recently. NS1 was an amazing game that blending so much skill and tactics, without the need to unnecessary caps or restrictions. NS2 seems to be changing what the core focus of the game is, in many ways which i will not even begin to lay out here. The point is that if the game continues down this path, I, and i think many others, will NOT play this game.

    Obviously at times the feedback may come off as insulting or rude or whatever, but for the most part any constructive post about ideas on how to change or improve things is met by trolling and ridicule from the other half of the community, leading to the rage posts.


    If you start a feedback thread with an insult in frustration that still makes it an insult and it will be perceived as rude no matter your intent. The ridicule isn't productive at all in any direction.

    Just think of this scenario from a third party perspective and think about how the framing of the feedback affects the believablility of the feedback and likelihood of integrating the feedback no matter how correct the feedback is:

    John meets Bob and is commenting on Bob's tailoring work for his jacket and John says,"Bob are you brain dead? That jacket looks hideous, you should have the seem taken in here and here."

    Humans don't respond well to insults so its better to keep them out of constructive feedback.
  • Unknown_SoldierUnknown_Soldier Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6395Posts: 150Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 26 2012, 02:26 PM) »
    Quoting invTempest my priority for an hotfix would be :

    - Make hydras cost pres again. Hydra spam is no fun.


    If Hydras cost pres again, it shouldn't be any more than 3-5 without a limit and giving the Gorge the ability to recycle them for full refund. Hydras are weak, static, and have poor tracking and damage. Marines can usually just ignore them outright.


    Also if the NS2 team is looking for a replacement for the clog, maybe look into a combination of the web/wall, clogs, and stuff growing out of infestation. Like maybe allow the Gorge to place something (a seed-type thing) on infestation and then place another of that something close by. The idea is that a webbing would start growing between the two sorta like infestation and it could act like the web/goo wall.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,688Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Its also not productive pointing out how unproductive insults are - it has already been dozen of those posts too.

    Get together write some feedback documents or threads how and what to improve and stop this.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,802Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ok, if you want to say it that way, lets give an accurate description. John comments on Bobs tailoring work a couple times, telling him ways that it could be improved in a constructive manner. Rob, Bobs friend replies stating that John is an idiot. After a few times, do you expect John to reply in a nice fashion?
  • rehreh Join Date: 2011-12-11 Member: 137450Posts: 60Members
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Apr 26 2012, 06:56 PM) »
    Its also not productive pointing out how unproductive insults are - it has already been dozen of those posts too.

    Get to gether write some feedback documents or threads and stop pointing fingers at everybody.


    It's insulting to point out how not productive pointing out how unproductive insults are.
  • PekermanPekerman Join Date: 2010-03-07 Member: 70876Posts: 77Members
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Apr 26 2012, 09:26 AM) »
    - Wave spawning is very very bad and needs to be reverted. Not sure how we go from 8 second spawns with emergency spawning at 4 dead aliens to 20+ second spawn times.

    isn't wave spawning system like DoD? i dont get why you dont like it. you can gather your team and calculate when to rush to respawn faster if you die (you'd need a "reinforcments in ..."). it would make spawncamp difficult too. i think its a great feature. 20 seconds may be too much though.

    but is more tactical than before

    ARGENTINA
    2RAM | Pekerman
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Pekerman @ Apr 26 2012, 01:03 PM) »
    isn't wave spawning system like DoD? i dont get why you dont like it. you can gather your team and calculate when to rush to respawn faster if you die (you'd need a "reinforcments in ..."). it would make spawncamp difficult too. i think its a great feature. 20 seconds may be too much though.

    but is more tactical than before

    I get the feeling it does not fit in ns very well. If the spawning time is to long it makes for a very boring wait and less action(mainly hurts newcommers to the game). I feel that you should only have to wait that long for respawn if your team did something wrong, like alllowing a skulk to get to your ip or a marine got inside your hive.
    If its to short it will be impossible for marines to brake the hive since they can't camp the aliens. They will have to bring arcs to win the game. That would make it harder for marines to punish poor alien early game(like if aliens try to go 5 fades aliens can forcefully brake into the hive and end the game before they arrive).

    Edit:
    There is one tactical thing in that spawn system, the one who is respawning can tell you how long you need to wait til next spawn and you can suicide rush just before it happens. This allows you to do risky manuveres with less downtime.(not sure I would call it tactical though)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • PekermanPekerman Join Date: 2010-03-07 Member: 70876Posts: 77Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 10:12 AM) »
    Edit:
    There is one tactical thing in that spawn system, the one who is respawning can tell you how long you need to wait til next spawn and you can suicide rush just before it happens. This allows you to do risky manuveres with less downtime.(not sure I would call it tactical though)

    yeah thats exactly what im talking about why don't we get a "reinforcements in x seconds" indicator in the hud, aliens can coordinate that way.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    ARGENTINA
    2RAM | Pekerman
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (Pekerman @ Apr 26 2012, 01:19 PM) »
    yeah thats exactly what im talking about why don't we get a "reinforcements in x seconds" indicator in the hud, aliens can coordinate that way.

    I actually think thats a bad thing, this means that skulks can type kill in console to go into hive defense faster, or to defend base rts faster.
    If they know the spawn timings this is not hard to do.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • LPCLPC Join Date: 2002-04-07 Member: 384Posts: 303Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    a big LIKE
    cookiemonster
  • MaximumSquidMaximumSquid Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Posts: 627Members
    I'm liking the build a lot

    Yes, there's still tons of things I wished were fixed, but not having to deal with buggy drifters that get stuck in the skybox is taking away some of the aggravation at least

    Also Gorge actually feels rewarding to play now

    Game is probably still imbalanced though
    Most games that feel like they are even footing are almost always when aliens have a crap comm that doesn't research augment even after dozens of people tell him/her exactly what to do
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 07:12 PM) »
    I get the feeling it does not fit in ns very well. If the spawning time is to long it makes for a very boring wait and less action(mainly hurts newcommers to the game). I feel that you should only have to wait that long for respawn if your team did something wrong, like alllowing a skulk to get to your ip or a marine got inside your hive.
    If its to short it will be impossible for marines to brake the hive since they can't camp the aliens. They will have to bring arcs to win the game. That would make it harder for marines to punish poor alien early game(like if aliens try to go 5 fades aliens can forcefully brake into the hive and end the game before they arrive).


    But what about the middle ground goldilocks? If the timing is right then it will mean if marines push at the right time they can kill the eggs and win, but not too long that aliens are waiting for ages. I also don't think you'll see aliens suicide to try and defend the hive because of the eggs, you are much more vulnerable when spawning from an egg and if the hive runs out then you won't be able to spawn at all.
    In-game name: Wilson

    My Crosshair Pack: LINK
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2012
    Some good changes, definitely will need gorge structures slowly dissolving if the gorge dies or evolves into something else though. And with buildings being hardcapped, staying alive as a gorge may become incredibly boring as the game progresses. (Aside from that, the new gorge is looking promising at least can't wait to see him feature complete) I like the drifter change as well, though it will feel like a pointless mechanic as long as you do not remove sight on infestation. PLEASE consider this, we've been asking for it for so long, it's a broken mechanic that gives aliens far too much of an advantage, and drifters + alien comm 'dungeon keeper' effect (as talked about in the design notes) could easily take its place. (Or even offer it as an expensive tech upgrade lategame)

    Can't say you guys took big steps in turns of balance though, despite the fact that some easy fixes could already go a long way. Hope 207 will bring more relief in that regard.

    Lastly, I risk repeating myself, but UWE please look at this thread:
    http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns/forums/ind...howtopic=118046 This is the most comprehensive thread I have seen on the issues plagueing NS 2 today, and some of the solutions presented in it are in fact very simple. At the very least it warrants a developer read-through imo

    Anyway, 2 steps forward one step back I guess, I'd say all things considered you guys are doing great, I'm definitely excited to see more.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • SpaPalSpaPal Join Date: 2012-02-28 Member: 147699Posts: 48Members
    QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 11:23 AM) »
    I actually think thats a bad thing, this means that skulks can type kill in console to go into hive defense faster, or to defend base rts faster.
    If they know the spawn timings this is not hard to do.


    Oy thats a really good point.
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