Bilebomb Infestation

EldorwanabeEldorwanabe Join Date: 2011-08-09 Member: 115107Posts: 9Members
While I’m learning to appreciate the differences in the game that build 205 are imposing there is one aspect that I find especially annoying: the infestation brought on by the lerks bilebomb. While I like the concept, the implementation of it makes it possible for two or three lurks to lock down an entire marine team within their base as they attempt to deal with it (leaving the rest of the map to fend for itself).

As it is not possible for marines to repair for a time after the attack it has become easy for a couple of aliens to simple fly through a room very quickly, drop a bomb, and fly away. By staggering these flybys, 5-10 seconds apart, there is no time to begin repairing before the next wave hits.

Why not just shoot them down you say? The speed and agility that lerks are afforded make this exceptionally difficult, and as there is no real need on the part of the Lerk to “engage” they can simply move through the room without hovering to aim. (As a note, I am not a bad shot so this is not the issue, at least not in full. I have seen this issue on multiple servers with many players and they have all experienced this problem.)

As I said, I kind of like the idea of the infestation as a result of the bilebomb. However as this ability is coupled with Lerk it is especially lopsided and difficult to stop fast attacks. I never liked that the bilebomb was moved to the Lerk, it makes very little sense to me. I feel that with this level of power it should be relegated back to the gorge.

Comments

  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    I think it takes maybe 20-25 LMG bullets to kill a Lerk? It is difficult to hit one in flight, but saying that how good of a shot you are isn't relevant seems flat out false. From what I know of the damage calculations, two LMG marines, or one SG marine, with really really good aim should be able to shut it down any time it attacks.

    I think the problem here is that people don't know how to track and shoot Lerks.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • LuitjensLuitjens Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73034Posts: 198Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 19 2012, 10:25 PM) »
    I think it takes maybe 20-25 LMG bullets to kill a Lerk? It is difficult to hit one in flight, but saying that how good of a shot you are isn't relevant seems flat out false. From what I know of the damage calculations, two LMG marines, or one SG marine, with really really good aim should be able to shut it down any time it attacks.

    I think the problem here is that people don't know how to track and shoot Lerks.


    On top of that, standing in doorways and placing mines above on the doorframe is super useful in murdering lerks.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    yt - InternetsLIVE
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    flamethrowers are your friend
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • KarnajKarnaj Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Posts: 209Members
    I thought the infestation was just eyecandy that uses the new material system. If so, then you're describing a possible issue from before b205, when bile bomb was made more effective for lerks. I agree that it can be a problem when three lerks bomb the marine base and tickrate drops to 10. But by then, it's end-game and the marines are already losing. I think bile bomb is fine under normal circumstances because, like Techercizer has explained, you only need two good rifle users or one good shotty user to kill a lerk.

    When I see a lerk coming from an opposite entrance, there's a chance the lerk will bomb and then retreat towards the exit I'm near. I save my ammo and gun the lerk down if it decides to retreat my way. Even if the lerk goes by me, I can still peek out the exit and shoot at it. Ambushing is definitely not limited to alien gameplay.

    Above all, just practice sticking your crosshair on lerks. Good tracking is essential in this game.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 19 2012, 09:52 PM) »
    flamethrowers are your friend


    Idea: sustain flame on Bombed building to reduce BB duration from 5 to 2.5?
    Natural Selection 2 Quick Tabs

    Official Site | NS2HD Blog | Community Hub | NS2 Wiki

    "Comatose on the floor in the office giggling uncontrollably with the most immeasurable happiness" - Strayan, Halloween 2012
  • EldorwanabeEldorwanabe Join Date: 2011-08-09 Member: 115107Posts: 9Members
    While it may be possible that my aiming sucks, I am simply stating that I have observed groups of 3+ marines unable to effectively stop one of these attacks from having a disastrous effect on the marine base. Further more, as stated in the OP, I have seen this happen on several servers with several different groups of people. All of that was stated to remove, or at least mitigate, the excuse of "bad aim".

    I am very aware that Lerks are relatively frail aliens. I have played for NS2 some time (nearly 300 hrs, since the 140 builds), and while that does not insure that I am a great player, I have killed many lerks with the smg, pistol, and SG. I can track them and kill them.

    My point is: a lerk who is not trying to engage in battle, who is obscured by gas and can simply zig zag around without care for accuracy can be exceptionally hard to kill even for the most skilled of players. Couple that with the multiplicity of the attack and the inability to repair the most damaged structures during small lulls and you are left with, what I believe, is an issue.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,088Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team admin
    dont forget turrets!
    a lerk has a hard time getting through a room with one, let alone two turrets shooting it. they seem to have NO issue tracking them!
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498Members
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 20 2012, 02:52 PM) »
    flamethrowers are your friend

    Wow this comment really demonstrates such a lack of understanding of the game. It's almost as if you didn't read what OP had to say. Perhaps you didn't realise OP is talking about BB, not spores.

    The issue is BB can inflict damage on multiple structures and temporarily prevent repairs (can't repair while DOT is ticking down). Left unchecked this will quickly kill the CS (not to mention pretty much every other structure within the huge radius). So the marines have to respond. OPs point is that even with marines defending their base, lerks are still able to drop a BB and fly out safely too often. Marines must be able to score a kill in order to releave this pressure.

    FT is not going to score a kill on a Lerk who is just doing BB runs.

    Further, FT has been and will continue to be a late game tech. Tech upgrades are a better option because they are both a general solution (works for all situations) and a specific solution (much more likely to score a lerk kill).

    Now to add salt to the wound, if you have 3 lerks staggering their attacks, the DOT can almost be sustained meaning marines are prevented by game rule from conducting repairs. This is the key point OP made. With a few skilled lerks, the best case is that marines will be bottled up in their base forcing the lerks to only do raiding runs rather than a sustained assault.

    Let's also remember that BB wipes out mines and MACs, which means
    • marines are more vulernable to skulks in their own base.
    • marines have to research welders (10 tRes) and buy them (pRes) then spend time welding, instead of capturing res points or harassing the aliens. AND BB hits multiple structures at once, while marines can only repair one structure at a time... and only after the DOT wares off!


    Marines on pub games are operating several builds behind what's happening now. Even in build 204 we could see aliens who still thought Onos was the apex unit in the game, or that phase gates were more important than arcs. These strategies linger.

    Personally I think BB radius is too big, DPS is too high, MAC auto-repair is a problem and ultimlately there is no tech/research answer to lerks in the same sense that shotguns are an answer to fades. You can learn a few tricks that increase your chances of getting a kill, such as what Luitjens & Karnaj had to say, but to some extent there is no weapon answer to lerk except aim better, get upgrades and outnumber with focus fire. Because of this, Lerk continues to be the alien of choice for skilled twich players. And having the skilled players evolve to lerk exacerbates the imbalance issues.
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498Members
    QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 20 2012, 04:03 PM) »
    dont forget turrets!
    a lerk has a hard time getting through a room with one, let alone two turrets shooting it. they seem to have NO issue tracking them!

    >_< Not sure if serious or trololo. You need a crazy amount of sentries to stop a lerk. So much so that you're much better off doing other things with the monies. F. eg, I'd feel pretty happy to do BB runs on flight control if there were 6 well placed sentries in there. I'm not even a good lerk player :(
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This IS a problem, yes. But it was before 205. The effects just made it more obvious.
    Yesterday, I was in the giving and the receiving end. While lerking, it was no problem to fly into a full marine base and drop one or even 3 bb before I had to retreat to a gorge. Even with their 3 sentries. With the help of the other aliens, starting havoc in the marine base, it was no problem to get their sentries and armory down first (after 4 or 5 assaults) and get the rest down after.

    At the receiving end, we had a good stand at first with one pg up to a outpost with sentries. As soon as the lerk attacks of our mainbase begun, every marine was fighting against this 2 or 3 lerks and our outpost wasn't defend-able. We lost short after.

    I'm not sure, what to do about this. Making the lerk weaker isn't a good solution, because then he will not be able to fly into a turtled marine base with more than 2 sentries. Leading to stalemates.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,088Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team admin
    oh yea,
    QUOTE (Eldorwanabe @ Apr 19 2012, 08:01 PM) »
    By staggering these flybys, 5-10 seconds apart, there is no time to begin repairing before the next wave hits.

    I expect this to change, the length of time has just been discussed by too many to think otherwise.

    @Khyron : yea it works in the right room only, due to a limitation in the current parameters of the turret. As in, they don't shoot vertically that well! But man if you trap a lerk down the hallway from computer lab to FC, with two turrets, you'll probably KILL him - or close to it. Definitely should not be dismissed.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498Members
    @ironhorse: True, the vertical limit is pretty low. But still, I can't help but feel sentry damage is beefed up to compensate for their poor tracking. They won't hit a skulk until he stops moving for what seems an eternity. As for building sentries in corridors, ok, but then a fade can just blink/shadowstep past them and hit your base. I feel funny about placing turrets to deal with just one kind of lifeform, but as people catch on to how powerful lerk is maybe I'll need to try out that idea more...
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
  • pRiNcEkAhUnApRiNcEkAhUnA Join Date: 2012-03-06 Member: 148264Posts: 130Members
    QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 19 2012, 11:03 PM) »
    dont forget turrets!
    a lerk has a hard time getting through a room with one, let alone two turrets shooting it. they seem to have NO issue tracking them!

    A Lerk could fly around the base for hours with a couple sec break in-between to regenerate health. Turrets would be more efficient if their guns were upgraded through the arms lab.
  • Master BlasterMaster Blaster Join Date: 2012-03-17 Member: 148908Posts: 264Banned
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 19 2012, 09:52 PM) »
    flamethrowers are your friend


    Lerks get bilebomb 6-8 minutes into the game.

    Marines do not get flamethrowers that soon for obvious reasons.
  • Master BlasterMaster Blaster Join Date: 2012-03-17 Member: 148908Posts: 264Banned
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Khyron @ Apr 19 2012, 11:33 PM) »
    Wow this comment really demonstrates such a lack of understanding of the game. It's almost as if you didn't read what OP had to say. Perhaps you didn't realise OP is talking about BB, not spores.


    I honestly think it might be trolling considering the suggestion that marinese get flamethrowers 6-8 minutes into the game, and then magically have the resources to buy multiple flamethrowers.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
Sign In or Register to comment.