I am lol-ing at Fade spokesman

2

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  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Posts: 1,803Members
    QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 19 2012, 01:09 PM) »
    Not at all, the differences in the sides doesnt mean that marines should control the entire map to beat aliens holding a small amount. With the changes to cysts it is extremely easy to take 3 rts as aliens, even more if you have just one gorge assisting. The only resources spent is the comms pres, which arguably the marine comm spends in ammo/meds. The sides are different and should play as such, but that doesnt mean that they cannot be balanced around similar levels of map control/expansion. Otherwise you are going to need fixed spawns and map layouts to improve balance.


    Similar levels of map control and expansion huh?
    Ok, take two scenarios in a game on summit. In the first scenario, the marines have turrets and phase gates in 3 of the 5 hive rooms, the aliens control 2 of the 5 hive rooms. In the second scenario, the aliens control 3 of the 5 hive rooms, while the marines control 2. Are these two scenarios comparable?
  • Ice30Ice30 Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Posts: 54Members
    I know i can't back up my argument with actual fact and gameplay evidence, but in my oppinion, the reason why fades are hard to kill is due to bad rego and lag compensation. Because fades become invulnerable as soon as they blink, if you shoot them before the player blinks, often your shot won't be registered. As it is, there has been many times where i have landed 2-3 good hits on a fade with a shotty at close range and he has survived when he shouldn't have, the reason he survived and why many other fades survive is because of shoddy lag compensation.

    When you shoot, just before you see the fade blink, the server might register the fade as already being in blink and perhaps half a meter away, if that was a skulk moving quikly, some of your pellets would still do damage, but of course with a fade this doesn't happen. This is the main issue, unless lag compensation is fixed properly fades will need a change, in my oppinion the best change would be to make fades take damage in the first one to one and a half seconds of blink. That would solve all lag compensation issues and also balance the fade considering he still has shadow step which lets him flank marines when he fights them.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Posts: 705Members, Constellation
    Perhaps UWE could prepare a test framework for their playtesters

    So instead of doing all the in game work to acquire fades....then trying to analyze the VERY GOOD FADE
    The game is simply FADE vs SHOTGUN.

    They could analyze the best players in this scenario and see if they were using some exploit subconsciously.

    I really do not want them to chop the Fade anymore, any other changes should be very surgical.
    The fade is supposed to be scary, if he gets lamed no one will buy him.
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Posts: 210Members
    My hope is not really that the fade gets nerfed, more that the 2nd alien hive is delayed a minute or two, and the fade unchained from the hives. Then it would be changed to be a little less effective as a marine killer, but a little more tanky. Then it could gain a 2nd hive ability to increase its power/effectiveness back to its current levels or there-abouts, once the aliens reach that tier.

    I do think the fades blink ability is the root of this imbalance, which is why im saying it needs to be changed slightly. Remove the invul but give the fade back HP, and lower the swipe damage slightly. The blink visual effects could remain mostly the same (only have the fade being slightly more visible in normal blink or something). I think this would both make the fade better balance wise early, and more effective later game.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,693Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 19 2012, 01:53 AM) »
    Fade balance is tricky, but I'm a fan of making jetpacks the proper counter to fades. Both are nominally tier2 tech and require the use of PRes. The key issue I see is that you need to make it so marines can realistically get jetpacks before the 2nd hive is complete.


    Since when is jp tier 2 in ns2? The amount of res you would need to build it at the same time fades come into the game would mean that you woulnt be allowed to get any other tech. You can not stand against fades without having armor 2 (3 swipes instead of 2).

    Jp is at least 130tres (just armory, adv armory, shotgun, proto, jp research) with shotgun its nearly 50pres but beeing able to die from 2 swipes or 2bites and a parasite is too dangerous if you are carrying equipment worth nearly 50pres... jp is not agile enough to make this viable, and shotgun is a closerange weapon which is not really cool for jetpackers.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,411Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Mkk_Bitestuff @ Mar 19 2012, 02:52 PM) »
    Honestly it sounds like at times we played different games


    Well done, now you see the waste of time in disputes on forums ;) We were playing different games, but that is purely down to the fact that everyone is unique and does things differently, notices different things.

    Any 2 people will experience exactly the same thing differently. 1 will see a set of drawbacks and positives and the other another, and sometimes they match up, and sometimes not, but that is the beauty of individual experience.

    I'm glad everyone sees the world through unique eyes, makes life more interesting, even if it makes agreement that much harder :)

    Also you are doing it again. Who cares if a solo marine could kill a fade in NS1, NS2 was designed to address issues just like that. A single marine should not be able to take down a fade. That sends a message that you don't need teamwork and encourages rambo's to go after 2nd hive aliens, which is a HUGE break from the teamplay based concept of the NS universe.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Posts: 210Members
    I bring it up as a point of reference, which i think is even more applicable to NS2 than NS1. Balance between lifeforms and marines needs to determined per unit, teamplay should be used to tip the odds in your favor more than being a direct requirement. Since you can now have any number of the team go fade, shotgun, or any other lifeform/equip, it makes a small balance deviation in those units vastly more impacting.
  • NecropsYNecropsY Join Date: 2012-01-23 Member: 141746Posts: 64Members
    Why are Fades overpowered?

    because fades no longer have to worry about placement, they can push mouse 2 for INVUL and not have to worry about dodging attacks rather just avoid them all together with God mode on Mouse 2

    beyond that fades do almost twice the amount of damage a Skulk does, in ns1 fades did like 80 damage vs skulks 75 damage bites

    in ns 2 fades seem to do almost 2 TIMES the damage of a skulk
    POOP
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,411Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (NecropsY @ Mar 19 2012, 06:34 PM) »
    beyond that fades do almost twice the amount of damage a Skulk does, in ns1 fades did like 80 damage vs skulks 75 damage bites

    in ns 2 fades seem to do almost 2 TIMES the damage of a skulk


    CODE
    kBiteDamage = 75
    kBiteDamageType = kDamageType.Normal
    kBiteFireDelay = 0.45
    kBiteEnergyCost = 3

    kSwipeDamage = 70
    kSwipeDamageType = kDamageType.Puncture
    kSwipeFireDelay = 0.65
    kSwipeEnergyCost = 7

    kPuncturePlayerDamageScalar = 1.5


    Swipe damage is 105 and deals at a rate of 161.5/sec
    Bite damage is 75 and deals at a rate of 166.66*/sec

    Just goes to show that perception is almost always a distortion of reality :)
  • FroztyFrozty SWEDEN Join Date: 2012-01-22 Member: 141596Posts: 160Members
    People have to realize FADE is not a "warrior". Its build for assassin missions.
    Blink in and kill 1/3 marines and keep doing that until the threat is gone.

    ITS NOT A WARRIOR!

    And if the marines let aliens in 7vs7 get x3 Onos the match is over.
    There is no way AT THIS POINT the marines can win l8 game against half enemy team play as Onos.

    Ofc this is public and not "PRO CPL".
    4zSsY3w.png
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,205Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 19 2012, 06:53 PM) »
    Swipe damage is 105 and deals at a rate of 161.5/sec
    Bite damage is 75 and deals at a rate of 166.66*/sec

    Just goes to show that perception is almost always a distortion of reality :)

    105 damage means fade swipes will instakill any marine that has 0 armor, not uncommon after being in a fight and picking up medpacks to stay alive. DPS is really only interesting when hitting targets that don't move.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Mar 19 2012, 07:49 AM) »
    Since when is jp tier 2 in ns2? The amount of res you would need to build it at the same time fades come into the game would mean that you woulnt be allowed to get any other tech. You can not stand against fades without having armor 2 (3 swipes instead of 2).

    Jp is at least 130tres (just armory, adv armory, shotgun, proto, jp research) with shotgun its nearly 50pres but beeing able to die from 2 swipes or 2bites and a parasite is too dangerous if you are carrying equipment worth nearly 50pres... jp is not agile enough to make this viable, and shotgun is a closerange weapon which is not really cool for jetpackers.

    Well, I guess I should have said I view JP as a tier2 tech. In reality, you're right that currently its priced as a tier3ish tech. In particular, I think the equipment/classes for tier2/3 should match up like this:
    Tier2
    Marine = JP
    Alien = Fade
    Tier3
    Marine = Exo
    Alien = Onos

    I'd also like to see the JP acceleration to be increased. It feels way too sluggish for me.
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    Exactly my point and will keep raising the issue till someone pays attention. Jetpack cost's to much. For how much it cost's, it's performance is piss poor. Most good player's agree that a fade still owns a jetpack marine.

    Also with all the new additions to the game with bigger, better weapons and armour, exo suit, rail guns etc etc, where on earth will jetpack fit in? The cost to get all these new items will mean the marines will be purely late game only. Why would you even bother trying to get a jetpack when you can get exo suit and rail gun? Jetpack will soon be utterly void. No one will bother to get jetpack because they will be putting the resources elsewhere.

    If they dropped the price of protolab to say 25, jetpack research to 25, and jetpack 15, that would mean that marines could get them a lot earlier and they wouldn't be crippled if they did. This means mid game when aliens pop fades marines could get jetpacks, which would bring their survival chances up and would automatically balance the game. It would mean that mid game would be a more fast paced game, that would set up late game for all the heavy weapons. So which ever team is better at mid game would be able to go heavy first and by rights should win. Would be based on skill.

    You don't need to add more things, you don't need to nerf fades, you don't need to do anything to game mechanic's, just drop the price of jetpack on all levels so that marines can actually fight fades.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Posts: 1,425Members
    I think the fade is fine, and jetpacks are hard to kill until they run out of fuel. Perhaps jetpacks should be easier to aquire so they arrive at the same time aliens get fades (rather than very end of game).
    My Steam Workshop:
    Arms Limitation Treaty - Whips, Sentries, ARCs and Hallucinations count towards MAC/Drifter limits.
    No Power Usage - Marine structures no longer require power. Power nodes only affect lighting, but are much weaker.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Except jetpacks by themselves are hardly anything to be happy with, LMGs + Jetpacks is a waste of money, it's only when you get nade launcher/flamethrower and (later) the HMG that your jetpack is going to be of some use IMO. (Meaning that even if jetpacks came quicker, which they certainly should, you still need proper weapon upgrades and upgrades in general)
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • Ice30Ice30 Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Posts: 54Members
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 21 2012, 12:26 AM) »
    Except jetpacks by themselves are hardly anything to be happy with, LMGs + Jetpacks is a waste of money, it's only when you get nade launcher/flamethrower and (later) the HMG that your jetpack is going to be of some use IMO. (Meaning that even if jetpacks came quicker, which they certainly should, you still need proper weapon upgrades and upgrades in general)


    HMG is only going to be available with exo D:
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 21 2012, 05:26 AM) »
    Except jetpacks by themselves are hardly anything to be happy with, LMGs + Jetpacks is a waste of money, it's only when you get nade launcher/flamethrower and (later) the HMG that your jetpack is going to be of some use IMO. (Meaning that even if jetpacks came quicker, which they certainly should, you still need proper weapon upgrades and upgrades in general)


    Yes but the point is your survival goes up and if they only cost 15 res it wouldn't be crippling to lose. If you have a squad of say 3-4 marines with LMG's and JP's, when a fade teleports in you can take off. Even though you may only have an LMG, your team mates plus you can shoot at the fade who now has to decide if he wants to stay in this battle or flee. The fact that he now has a hard time reaching you would be worth it. With your survival time increased, I think it makes it worth while. You will no longer be walking fodder which can get sniped one by one till your all dead, so you will get more time out of your resources like fades do.

    Fades are powerful because they can snipe marines even in the middle of a squad and then get away. A marine can't out run a fade so one usually dies before the fade teleports away. Then all they do is rinse and repeat until the whole squad is dead. If they suddenly have a lot harder time sniping marine's because they can fly, that in itself balances the game. Fades would have to choose their fight's very carefully, and if they missed that first strike, would find themselves in a bad situation.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Mar 19 2012, 11:34 PM) »
    ... Most good player's agree that a fade still owns a jetpack marine. ...


    it's interesting to read that, because with build 200 there was a small delay added before you can swipe after a blink (together with increased blink costs) and everyone predicted fades will be useless against JP :)
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Sewlek @ Mar 21 2012, 10:11 AM) »
    it's interesting to read that, because with build 200 there was a small delay added before you can swipe after a blink (together with increased blink costs) and everyone predicted fades will be useless against JP :)


    That is helpful but can you honestly say that with the current JP launch time that a marine can get clear of a skilled fade who managed to teleport literally right next to him? If so then id say I have no problem with fades being able to swipe right away.

    The problem wasnt fades, it was marines not being able to do anything to escape. But do like what you guys are doing.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    From my fading experience in B200, the most effective way to kill a JP marine is to wait till they run out of JP fuel and fall to the ground. Since the JP doesn't recharge quickly, you can easily get the 2-3 swipes necessary to kill them. Trying to hit them in the air is a fool's errand.
  • XynocideXynocide Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148578Posts: 1Members
    Fades should take damage while blinking. maybe %50 reduced damage but full invulnerability makes them impossible to kill. Marines already can't see where the fade is going while blinking, at least give them a chance to lucky shot the blinking lightball :)
  • SeptinSeptin Join Date: 2012-03-20 Member: 149061Posts: 1Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I dont really know how i should express my meaning about fades. Fades in my opinion takes a squad to kill but becomes near impossible to kill when half the alien team is made of fades. Could a max lifeform limit work for aliens? Also what i think many people forget as both teams are going lonewolf and not going in teams. When the game starts going into mid/late its vital to work together and more than i like have i seen lone skulks suicide rush groups of marines. However another problem is the aliens dependency on the second hive. If aliens dont get a second hive they cant get fades and then they cant hold the marines in check because the marines usually have upgrades and shotguns on this time. It just gets worse when the marines get flamethrowers which makes skulks obsolete. I also think the assault rifle is to accurate and should spread a bit.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,597Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts admin
    edited March 2012
    no no, after frenzy is removed, and the shotgun can once again 2 shot a fade, all will be well.

    edit : @septin:
    thats called Mass Tech .. and its a valid concern. best way to approach it is rock,paper,scissor mechanics, such as the fade not being able to hurt structures, only humans, etc and utilizing something other than TIME as the determining factor of equal amounts of pres to a team, such as teamwork. see: http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1915143
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,140Members
    I have no problems with Fades being amazing, there should just be less of them.
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 198Members
    QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Mar 21 2012, 12:10 PM) »
    I have no problems with Fades being amazing, there should just be less of them.


    true.. it's so abusable with lots of ways.

    I watched B201 playtest, and there was no domination of fades anymore, but dunno if it's because all of players are pro.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Posts: 568Members
    QUOTE (Classic319 @ Mar 20 2012, 10:21 PM) »
    true.. it's so abusable with lots of ways.

    I watched B201 playtest, and there was no domination of fades anymore, but dunno if it's because all of players are pro.


    Not sure if Frenzy is being removed in 201, but that was a key upgrade that makes Fades such a dominate force they are now.

    Once the game is optimized, people holding well over +30 fps, and the marines becoming generally over all better, aliens are going to be in such a terrible state and its getting more and more obvious with each patch.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    silence fades are pretty scary. just saying.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,597Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts admin
    silence anything. i thought it would merely be muffled and/or less volume, less frequency of steps.. but its absolutely silent! had a silent, invisible lerk land just behind me and kill me before i figured out what happened lol.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • ubikjamubikjam Join Date: 2011-10-04 Member: 125618Posts: 72Members
    edited March 2012
    I tend to prefer flamethrowers as a tier 2 anti-fade weapon (provided shadow-step uses energy), as it is the natural anti-blink weapon. This would also make the lerk spikes more interesting as they outrange early flamers. That might mean dropping them down to basic armoury though...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,890Members, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Mar 20 2012, 11:22 PM) »
    Trying to hit them in the air is a fool's errand.

    Because of the delay. It should not be that way.
    Fades should be able to combat jetpackers in mid-air.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
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