Suggestion: Marines don't drop guns when they die

FlounderFlounder Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31656Posts: 177Members
edited March 2012 in Ideas and Suggestions
aliens don't drop fades when they die
Have guns permanently die when the owner dies; same as fade/onos/jp/etc.

I think this is a leftover NS1 mechanic that unnecessarily buffs marines and doesn't fit in with the new weapon buy model. It would be nice if marines never dropped guns, really. In many ways it is simply an annoyance:

- You die, drop your gun, and instead of spawning and retrieving it (as intended) a teammate takes it, rambos into the hive and dies next to 3 whips (this happens more often than you'd think).
- You kill a shotgun marine as fade, run off to save some rambo gorge, come back later, are forced to kill the same marine with the same shotgun, he kills you this time, and you have to wait for another 50 res while he never had to.
- LMGs litter base when people buy new guns.
- Aliens have to camp dropped guns rather than move on if they think rines will try to get the guns back. Seems unfair if marines don't have to camp alien corpses.

I could see if guns cost a lot of res (like 50 for a pyro) but as of now, they're so cheap and res comes in so fast with just 3 extractors, I don't see the need for marines to get this buff.

For continuity in the NS universe, say that all rine weapons auto dissolve into nanites when they are dropped in order to prevent enemies from capturing them. I mean, pyro fade = gg, right?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Posts: 600Members
    I happen to like how Marines drop weapons on death. It gives the Marine team more momentum when they push out and solidifies moving as a group.

    Granted, competent aliens should be able to melee dropped weapons or something, since we are all human players who know the Marines are going to want to re-use that shotgun, etc.
  • RanakastraszRanakastrasz Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147512Posts: 56Members
    Yep, Any attacks on weapons ought to damage or destory them. I know they are currently invulnerable, though you can attack them (ranged attacks anyhow, not sure about melee)

    Say, ~50 health, structural armor, and actually decays health-wise over time. (decays faster on infestation as well, around 3x as fast)
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 725Members, Reinforced - Gold
  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Posts: 600Members
    GOLDEN!

    UWE! IMPLEMENT!
  • Kama_BlueKama_Blue Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148710Posts: 108Members
    The real solution is letting aliens drop lifeforms when they die, so skulks can pick them up and use them.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    No, I'm not crawling into the anus of an onos to move it like a meat puppet.
    aliens should be able to drag off weapons, though. and maybe recycle them for a small amount of res.
    swallowing them seems a bit... dangerous.
    skulk + flamethrower = afterburner?
    image
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Posts: 1,281Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Bicsum @ Mar 17 2012, 02:00 AM) »


    advertising Yuukis mod ;)

    Haha awesome, but physics for weapons could make the server slow down?

    To balance:
    weapons should just stay longer and not be removed bythemself (except rifle and pistol, nobody need to pickup that).

    another idea would be, that aliens can attack the dropped weapons to destroy them but if they explode (depend on weapon) it fires around it like in some game i don't remember.
    If you shoot in this game a ammo box, it fires bullets around it.

    Did someone know which game it was? Im getting old...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    Far Cry 2?

    Honestly I don't have a problem with weapon drops, I only generally find them useful if it's a big attack, which only enhances the marine team effort idea, or if you're defending a base, frankly I don't want to be penalised every time I defend a base by having to re-buy a shotgun half a dozen times.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE
    Did someone know which game it was? Im getting old...

    unreal tournament had a behaviour mutator that offered something similar, on death all your bullets would be shot around you.
    if you had every weapon with full ammo - ow!
    image
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Posts: 881Members
    i like the idea of the OP. the arbitrary set disappear-time for weapons seems out of place imo. in return, weapons could be slightly cheaper to pruchase.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    QUOTE (Price @ Mar 17 2012, 10:20 AM) »
    Haha awesome, but physics for weapons could make the server slow down?


    Probably not, physics for weapons is already in, I didn't add anything really.

    But I do agree that weapon drop was copied without taking into account the new resource model.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Posts: 1,803Members
    I don't think the resource model needs to be taken into account in this situation, its just practical. I mean, how many times have you been killed by some skulk that ran around in the shadows while you were in the middle of marine spawn? Imagine you had just bought yourself a flamethrower, and now its just gone. Didn't fire a single bullet. Completely wasted. It would create a situation where people would rightfully be reluctant to purchase weapons when the team most needed them.

    I think weapons should be attackable though. Two skulk bites or the equivalent in order to destroy any weapon. That way it is a choice for the alien. Destroy resources or take a crack at another marine.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Posts: 1,425Members
    QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 17 2012, 10:04 AM) »
    I think weapons should be attackable though. Two skulk bites or the equivalent in order to destroy any weapon. That way it is a choice for the alien. Destroy resources or take a crack at another marine.

    This is another good option. Need animations when they fall apart though.
    My Steam Workshop:
    Arms Limitation Treaty - Whips, Sentries, ARCs and Hallucinations count towards MAC/Drifter limits.
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  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    err, no. a model for the broken pieces (another reason why I would have preferred a construction kit template way like republic commando has for designing the armament) and propper texture mapping.
    I guess people would start to ask for a possibility to repair weapons later on if this goes in.
    image
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Mar 17 2012, 09:04 AM) »
    I don't think the resource model needs to be taken into account in this situation, its just practical. I mean, how many times have you been killed by some skulk that ran around in the shadows while you were in the middle of marine spawn?

    About as many times as I've been murdered as an egg, probably =P

    More seriously, though, I think being able to attack weapons as you've said is the least we can afford to do. Mass GL/SG rushes are already insanely powerful even without the sort of infinite perpetuation that weapon pickup allows for.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Posts: 558Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I don't really like taking this away from the marines.

    It makes base raping sightly less successful, as marines can pick up the weapons they lost again. Same goes for phase gates.
    Honestly, if you take it away, camping armories would be encouraged, just wait until someone picked up a weapon, then kill him and make all that res go to waste.

    Also it helps in pushes, it encourages team work and makes the marines more offensive, the wave of marines has to be broken to get rid of the weapons used, or they can just pick them up again, I dont think anything is wrong with that.

    Giving the aliens a way to destroy weapons seems alright, but I would prefer it not to be simply bite it twice, that's just a little bit too easy; the whole picking up weapons and dropping them in a pit thing seems to be better solution.


    Btw, if it is deceided that marines don't drop weapons anymore, I think weapon's cost should be cut in half or so to compensate. You can't get resouces as marine that easily and a weapon is pretty valuable. The marine extractors are very vulnerable, and if you sit there at roughly 0.75 income ( 3 extractors usually), getting enough res for weapons takes a while and loosing one would be too much of a penality, so cost should be lowered in order to compensate.
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  • RanakastraszRanakastrasz Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147512Posts: 56Members
    The thing is, two bites arn't easy to get in when you are taking fire from 4 other marines with shotguns, or similar.

    Also, Why dont we cut the fade cost in half, because, like title says, Aliens dont drop fades when they die...
  • paradoxumparadoxum Join Date: 2012-03-05 Member: 148193Posts: 370Members
    QUOTE (Bicsum @ Mar 16 2012, 05:00 PM) »


    advertising Yuukis mod ;)


    I thought lerks could already do this for some reason, I must have read about it somewhere and put it together wrongly in my mind. this would be awesome though.
  • Kama_BlueKama_Blue Join Date: 2012-03-13 Member: 148710Posts: 108Members
    QUOTE (Ranakastrasz @ Mar 18 2012, 06:09 PM) »
    Also, Why dont we cut the fade cost in half, because, like title says, Aliens dont drop fades when they die...


    To really sum that statement correctly, you would need to look at the value of alien lifeforms VS the value of marine weapons.


    Using rough averages from what i've seen in my own games.
    Marine weapons are passed along roughly 3-4 Times on average.

    Take a shotgun, that's worth 20 res.
    A good player and a shotgun will be practically a skulk killing machine 20 Res > 0 Res alien unit.
    -- As a result, if you just fling skulks at a few marines with shotguns, the marines will rack up kills until they die, the shotgun will be picked up again and again and the cumulative res income of the team will bring more and more shotguns into the equation. Meaning marines will eventually win the confrontation.

    Shotgun relatively dominates Lerks (30 Res) and Gorges (10 Res), so it's a valuable investment, although these two classes take two hits instead of one and may not be killed as easily.

    However a Shotgun only has maybe a 25% chance of killing a fade (2-3 Hits), before the fade dominates the player. Whereas a fade can often kill between 7-20 marines in one life, shotgunners are risky encounters yes, but they usually can win them.

    The result being, the fade is more powerful by far, and kills far more marines even with shotties. Which may be intentional, but when a fade is capable of killing 2-3 players with shotties, the shotguns become far less valuable as a choice.

  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (Kama_Blue @ Mar 19 2012, 03:28 AM) »
    To really sum that statement correctly, you would need to look at the value of alien lifeforms VS the value of marine weapons.


    Using rough averages from what i've seen in my own games.
    Marine weapons are passed along roughly 3-4 Times on average.

    Take a shotgun, that's worth 20 res.
    A good player and a shotgun will be practically a skulk killing machine 20 Res > 0 Res alien unit.
    -- As a result, if you just fling skulks at a few marines with shotguns, the marines will rack up kills until they die, the shotgun will be picked up again and again and the cumulative res income of the team will bring more and more shotguns into the equation. Meaning marines will eventually win the confrontation.

    Shotgun relatively dominates Lerks (30 Res) and Gorges (10 Res), so it's a valuable investment, although these two classes take two hits instead of one and may not be killed as easily.

    However a Shotgun only has maybe a 25% chance of killing a fade (2-3 Hits), before the fade dominates the player. Whereas a fade can often kill between 7-20 marines in one life, shotgunners are risky encounters yes, but they usually can win them.

    The result being, the fade is more powerful by far, and kills far more marines even with shotties. Which may be intentional, but when a fade is capable of killing 2-3 players with shotties, the shotguns become far less valuable as a choice.

    A single shotgun can easily kill a fade/fend of a fade with 2-4 meds from the commander. But you have to take into count the mobility aliens get from going lerk/fade.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
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