To decide type of drifter when producing it

Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
edited March 2012 in Ideas and Suggestions
to give reasons why aliens should guard drifters
I actually don't like how drifter works now, because it's never organic between commander and alien players.

I mean, alien players have almost no reason to guard it or defend it. So most of them are doing something else, but commander is ALONE controlling drifters and dropping structures. And just some gorges spreading creeps meanwhile. That's all thing for now between players and commander as alien.

So i have an idea, according to the image of COCOON(drifter egg) which you see under.
image

As you see here, structure is inside drifter(drifter egg/cocoon). And i found this really fantastic.
And my idea is, just like that image, all the drifters should have his OWN structure since being born.



*easier to say,, DRIFTER = THE CARRIER(BAG, Transport/vehicle) OF STRUCTURES just like image.



## Commander must select the TYPE of Drifter first *WITH RESOURCES


When commander produces drifter from hive, he must choose the type of drifter first. And that will have specific structure inside, and that structure will grow up if it lands down and hatches out.


For example: Drifter, carrying Harvester / Drifter, carrying Whip(just like an image above) / Drifter, carrying Crag / Drifter, carrying Shade or Shift / Drifter, carrying HIVE!

Really simple idea. But the most important thing is, commander must use right team-resources to produce them.
: To produce the Drifter carrying Harvester would cost 10 tres (each +2 or not)
Drifter carrying Whip would cost 10 tres
Drifter carrying Crag/Shift/Shade costs each 10 tres
Drifter carrying Veil/Shell/.. costs each 10 tres

And, most importantly, DRIFTER carrying HIVE costs 75 tres


Therefore, if the drifter carrying specific structure dies while heading somewhere, alien loses at least 10 team resources for nothing, just like baby passing away even before he's born! And losing Hive-carrying-drifter by kill, ALIENS WOULD LOST 75 RES for NOTHING, even before seeing it to be dropped in tech point.





This would give Alien Commander really really crucial responsibility to control each drifter really saftely, and individual Alien Players also responsibility to guard it safely, especially when Drifter is carrying hive.. so more teamplay and teamwork will be needed between alien players and alien commander, and even more objectives to marines to prevent that transports reaching destination.

I hope you understood what i say, otherwise, just think about it really simply. Drifters now transform into structure, but my idea is, Drifters transPORTs structure. That would make such a unique gameplay for both sides.

I actually love this idea even myself, how do you think? How do you devs think about it?




p.s. Drifter should carry baby-structures, which grow up after hatching out.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    This reminds me of the Empire of Rising Sun from RA3, with the Nanotech Cores being similar to your idea for Drifters (pay first, get nanocore to build place safely). I too like this added importance placed on Drifters, instead of the measly 2 TRes in next Build 200. It also makes Shade Cloak even more of a crucial ability for Drifters floating into combat zones.

    However, at 100 HP, the Drifter is just way too fragile. What do you think, regarding HP scaling for Drifters carrying structures with higher costs?
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  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Mar 9 2012, 11:03 AM) »
    What do you think, regarding HP scaling for Drifters carrying structures with higher costs?


    Oh yeah of course, just like Onos egg has much more healths, drifter contains something like hive must not be so vunerable.



    QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Mar 9 2012, 11:03 AM) »
    It also makes Shade Cloak even more of a crucial ability for Drifters floating into combat zones.


    That would be really nice.



    I really hope dev team concern about this. This will really improve alien commanding, i am sure.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    with this, build times need to be altered drasticaly.
    image
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    QUOTE (RobB @ Mar 9 2012, 12:56 PM) »
    with this, build times need to be altered drasticaly.


    Hmm yeah, but Drifter with Whip won't need any change of build time, because Whip itself can move alone.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    Also, with this system, do we kiss free-Drifters-on-Tech-Path-selection goodbye?
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  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Mar 9 2012, 01:43 PM) »
    Also, with this system, do we kiss free-Drifters-on-Tech-Path-selection goodbye?


    Hmm... maybe,, but with some compromise as initial resource amount and give some free drifters?

    For example, Selecting Crag hive = 1 free Shell-Drifter, 1 free Crag-Drifter..
    Shade hive = 1 free Veil-Drifter, 1 free Shade-Drifter..



    oh i think this isn't that bad. With this, noob commander can easily understand how it(the hive-path) is important and how it function, without wasting resources by testing all the structures.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hm hm hm. I finaly took the time to re-read this properly instead of just skimming it.

    I like this idea, even though it is basicaly the resurection of the hive carrying slug (DO NOT ASK!).

    instead of gestation time when placing, the drifter gestates within the hive and is born as a rather complete structure; except for hives and harvesters which will just be seeds.
    The commander can grow them more mature so they "unpack" faster, but that makes them slower and costs resources. And increases health and armor values.
    Anyway, a drifter lands on the designated spot selected on buildorder and simply pops open.

    Of course, the aCom needs the option to change orders for a drifter, else a location is lost and the AI still stumbles in like a retarded C&C harvester.
    I imagine that a mature drift hive will make for a brilliant if costly decoy for enemy base defense, but that would have to be a tactic the commander decides to use, not the circumstances.

    Anyway, what else did I want to say?
    Ah, yeah. There needs to be a way to pile the drifters up at the hives for fleet maneuvers, too.

    Do commanders have a context menu? With this idea, the need to have one is there for sure.
    image
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Posts: 878Members
    interesting idea. i like it except the hive-drifter-costing-75-res part, that seems too luck-dependent unless you give it tons of health.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Drawbacks with suggested implementation -

    Charging Res BEFORE placing structure.

    I understand this is to make players protect the drifter, but what about pub games, where they choose to do their own thing and not protect the drifter. In your average pub game this will mean 90% or more Marine wins. Also if aliens are crap, fairly common on pub games, then you've taken away any chance they got of experiencing a 2nd hive before they get swatted.

    Losing 3 free drifters.

    Those 3 free drifters for ANY use are vital for the Kham. Forcing me to get a shell or veil when I select the hive is restricting my strategies. If I go for fast hive with no upgrades, only going for res until 2nd hive. You're suggestion completely invalidates this technique and reduces my gameplay options.

    I now have to wait to generate an additional 75 hive energy to get my 3 inital harvesters, meaning Marines have tech advantage for the first 1.5 minutes before I can get an extractor built.

    Again this is making it a virtual guaranteed Marine win.


    Hive is currently 75 res with 100% chance of laying
    Your suggestion means there is much less than a 100% chance of laying the hive, this needs to be reflected in the price. If the hive only gets laid 50% of the time in pub games, then the hive is going to cost 50% less Res to offset.

    From purely the suggestions made by the OP in his thread, the ONLY outcome from his specified changes would be:

    Lower chance of alien win
    Higher chance of marine win

    That is all that your suggested change brings to the table in it's current form. Are you suggesting this as a feature to improve general gameplay, or as a balance feature to tank the chances of aliens?

    If you are trying the 2nd option, it works very well :)






  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 10 2012, 08:59 PM) »
    Drawbacks with suggested implementation -

    Charging Res BEFORE placing structure.

    I understand this is to make players protect the drifter, but what about pub games, where they choose to do their own thing and not protect the drifter. In your average pub game this will mean 90% or more Marine wins. Also if aliens are crap, fairly common on pub games, then you've taken away any chance they got of experiencing a 2nd hive before they get swatted.


    You are also right, but why don't you think about marine side as a pub game? Marine without organization won't gonna kill any of drifters, just like aliens without organization won't gonna guard drifters as you say.

    Hive drifter seems a bit way too much, but, i'm certain that this idea would bring more teamplay, for both sides, and especially for Aliens. Aliens are now so much individual than marines. It used to be individual in NS1, of course, but as they have commander, i think there must be a connection between alien commander and all the other players, not only gorge spreading cyst chain.




    p.s. my idea is also based on the Progress at main index of ns2 site, there is/was a mention of changing charge of drifter. I remember that was 2 Team Resources instead of Energy. Therefore, adding 2 more resources as a cost of drifter or not is not that big problem, i think.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Laosh'Ra @ Mar 10 2012, 08:12 PM) »
    interesting idea. i like it except the hive-drifter-costing-75-res part, that seems too luck-dependent unless you give it tons of health.


    Of course that really needs tons of health, and should be able to be healed by crags and gorges. Skulks clearing the corridors to help that drifter gets to tech point, and gorges healing them when that THE MOST IMPORTANT drifter gets hurt. And commander so concentrating on controlling the hive-drifter,,, that would be really nice. That would bring some really organic organization/teamplay(between players and commander) to aliens, even more than marines.


    By the way, i myself also think hive 75res drifter is a bit way too much :)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 725Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited March 2012
    You could make a compromise by dividing the res cost for a hive drifter and the actual hive.
    Hive drifter cost -> 30 res && Hive cost 45 res or something like that.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Classic319 @ Mar 10 2012, 07:55 PM) »
    You are also right, but why don't you think about marine side as a pub game? Marine without organization won't gonna kill any of drifters, just like aliens without organization won't gonna guard drifters as you say.


    Not true. I kham all the time on pub games and I am yet to see ANY marines ignore a drifter. Marines know, you kill the drifter, aliens can't build. The biggest problem with both teams in pub games is players doing what they want.

    Marines want to kill, any and every marine will kill a drifter, especially the rambo one's, which is what a large percentage of players on both teams end up doing.
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 11 2012, 04:32 AM) »
    Not true. I kham all the time on pub games and I am yet to see ANY marines ignore a drifter. Marines know, you kill the drifter, aliens can't build. The biggest problem with both teams in pub games is players doing what they want.

    Marines want to kill, any and every marine will kill a drifter, especially the rambo one's, which is what a large percentage of players on both teams end up doing.


    Yeah, that's true, and that's one of the reasons why i suggested this. As i already wrote above, with drifter itself carrying structure(team-resource), alien comm will have responsibility to control it really carefully, and individual alien players themselves will recognize how important to guard it. That situation, that marines kill drifter nowadays, is because that alien players don't almost care about drifters, because they don't really have any disadvantages for themselves, just commander himself, waiting for enough energy again.

    Hope you understood what i said. What you said is one of those what i meant, but we have something different aspect.


    You = Drifter gets kill, so no more disadvantages on it
    I = Drifter dies, because almost no individual aliens care about it, so drifter system need to give more responsibilities to aliens, in order to let them recognize how important that is.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    I hope the problem with Drifters being easily spotted and killed will be decreased with AI units being able to navigate through vents (as was mentioned a while ago).

    Khamm could have lifeforms take care of Marines in the desired location and plop the Drifter down safe'n'sound (unless the vent was lined with mines, lol)
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  • RanakastraszRanakastrasz Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147512Posts: 56Members
    Waypoint support, So you can rought them through friendly territory would be helpful. Although the commander probably would be expected to make sure the hive drifter gets to it's destination safely, as well as commanding the team effectively (Which the second part at least, is impossible to do without actual team-play)
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Classic319 @ Mar 10 2012, 10:17 PM) »
    Yeah, that's true, and that's one of the reasons why i suggested this. As i already wrote above, with drifter itself carrying structure(team-resource), alien comm will have responsibility to control it really carefully, and individual alien players themselves will recognize how important to guard it. That situation, that marines kill drifter nowadays, is because that alien players don't almost care about drifters, because they don't really have any disadvantages for themselves, just commander himself, waiting for enough energy again.

    Hope you understood what i said. What you said is one of those what i meant, but we have something different aspect.


    You = Drifter gets kill, so no more disadvantages on it
    I = Drifter dies, because almost no individual aliens care about it, so drifter system need to give more responsibilities to aliens, in order to let them recognize how important that is.


    I do understand what you are saying. My point is I do not think your suggested solution will fix the issue you raise. I can get aliens to travel with drifters when I need them to, most of the time anyway, but it doesn't mean they can protect it. The way you are trying to implement this would indicate that if aliens followed the drifter, they would automatically save it.

    Making the drifters more of a target for marines will not make the aliens able to defend the drifters, and it will cause the marines to attack drifters more, probably resulting in a much lower drifter success rate than is currently experienced. Again this is not the purpose of the change, but the effect your idea would have if implemented.

    There is nothing wrong with the situation you have identified, aliens should work more with the Kham etc, but your proposed solution, will in my eyes, cause a swing in balance towards the marine team. I don't think that was your intention.

    Also currently if players are uninterested in protecting their drifters, and this is a problem at times, how will you get them to care about protecting these drifters? They don't care about drifters. There is a good chance some of them don't even know what a drifter is or does.

    I think this lack of defending drifters etc is just because players are yet to get used to the game, and what works and what doesn't. As time goes on and people learn what is going on, you'll see the play come around, but I really think your suggested improvement only buffs marines and nerfs aliens, without providing the benefit you seek. That's not to say it can't be adjusted to fit, but at the same time, is it neccesary?

    I like the idea of carrying the seed/object etc, but I cannot see this working unless as I mentioned, there are massive reductions to the cost of each item. With the current cost there is a 100% chance of laying the object once the res is deducted.

    Your replacement needs to say there is a 100% chance the drifter will get laid if the aliens cover it to the location. This is obviously not true, so you need to reduce the costs as appropriate. Then individual skill becomes a factor too, making the whole idea ultimately very difficult to balance.

    Drifters costing TRes makes them instantly more valuable to a team, as you need resources to not only build new resource towers, but to also buy drifters. The TRes change seems more likely to achieve the goal of this thread, without the changes suggested.

    But then this is just my opinion :)
  • RanakastraszRanakastrasz Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147512Posts: 56Members
    "
    Drifters costing TRes makes them instantly more valuable to a team, as you need resources to not only build new resource towers, but to also buy drifters. The TRes change seems more likely to achieve the goal of this thread, without the changes suggested.
    "

    I think you misread it. It moves the cost upfront, to the drifter, making deploying the hive or RT free.
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Posts: 1,425Members
    I like the idea of increasing teamwork with the commander, but it would put aliens at a significant disadvantage. Only would support if marines had to pick up parcels and carry them to places to build anything (which no marines would do).
    My Steam Workshop:
    Arms Limitation Treaty - Whips, Sentries, ARCs and Hallucinations count towards MAC/Drifter limits.
    No Power Usage - Marine structures no longer require power. Power nodes only affect lighting, but are much weaker.
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    QUOTE (TimMc @ Mar 11 2012, 09:57 PM) »
    I like the idea of increasing teamwork with the commander, but it would put aliens at a significant disadvantage. Only would support if marines had to pick up parcels and carry them to places to build anything (which no marines would do).


    Thinking about how ugly it is when marine commander sucks, that's no disadvantage at all. The most important reason why i wrote this is because aliens are still individual from commander. Commander is just worker and volunteer, not commander yet.

    As someone mentioned earlier, those drfiters can be cloaked with shade cloak, and can be really fast while moving with celerity(shift), and can gain really strong armor or umbra with crag. Now alien comm has something to do, not just clicking it on the map and wait for whether it dies meanwhile or not.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Ranakastrasz @ Mar 11 2012, 05:07 AM) »
    "
    Drifters costing TRes makes them instantly more valuable to a team, as you need resources to not only build new resource towers, but to also buy drifters. The TRes change seems more likely to achieve the goal of this thread, without the changes suggested.
    "

    I think you misread it. It moves the cost upfront, to the drifter, making deploying the hive or RT free.


    I think you misread it :)

    I was talking about the new NS2 implementation from the Devs. Currently the cost of Drifters is being moved from Hive Energy to TRes. I believe this change being implemented by the devs will fix the problem raised by the OP.

    The suggestion made by the OP is flawed, in my opinion, for the reasons listed :)

    QUOTE
    Now alien comm has something to do, not just clicking it on the map and wait for whether it dies meanwhile or not.


    I've found your problem. You don't micro the drifters :) If you don't micro the drifters, of course they are going to die! Don't just send a drifter of and expect it to get to it's location :)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 12 2012, 12:00 AM) »
    I've found your problem. You don't micro the drifters :) If you don't micro the drifters, of course they are going to die! Don't just send a drifter of and expect it to get to it's location :)


    Oh so have you ever heard some commander yelling out to players to guard drifter? For me, never. I just wanna drifter be more tactical and bring more teamplay. And i'm sure to contain structures already inside them would help that a lot. You still not getting what i mean, i've never meant that aliens need disadvantage, but i meant aliens need more connection between commander and individual player compulsorily, even just as much as marines.

    And i think guard-mission of drifter would fit on it, and for it, drifter as transport would be nice. Just like some mission in WWII game that has been called as Koll ob duetie.

    Resource cost can be alleviated, some disadvantages can be handled, but i don't care, i care only that aliens must have more system to make better and compulsory organization. Just like Marines and Marine Commander. I've never felt that Alien commander is commander, i can even order players even if i am no commander as alien. Alien comm is just like a worker on costruction site, not anymore. So i wanna new system which would make all the aliens recognize how important the behave of commander is, how important the organization between both is. And i repeat, my idea on this is in my opinion suitable.

    Of course there will be more things like phenomone and something else which would make commander of alien feel like real commander at least as marines do, but why not this? Please find the point, not about side-effects.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited March 2012
    I think there is possibly a language communication barrier here. I will try and clarify each of the points you make, and see if we can understand each other correctly :)

    QUOTE (Classic319 @ Mar 11 2012, 04:18 PM) »
    1 - Oh so have you ever heard some commander yelling out to players to guard drifter? For me, never.
    2 - I just wanna drifter be more tactical and bring more teamplay. And i'm sure to contain structures already inside them would help that a lot.
    3 - You still not getting what i mean, i've never meant that aliens need disadvantage, but i meant aliens need more connection between commander and individual player compulsorily, even just as much as marines.

    And i think guard-mission of drifter would fit on it, and for it, drifter as transport would be nice. Just like some mission in WWII game that has been called as Koll ob duetie.

    4 - Resource cost can be alleviated, some disadvantages can be handled, but i don't care, i care only that aliens must have more system to make better and compulsory organization. Just like Marines and Marine Commander. I've never felt that Alien commander is commander, i can even order players even if i am no commander as alien. Alien comm is just like a worker on costruction site, not anymore.

    5 - So i wanna new system which would make all the aliens recognize how important the behave of commander is, how important the organization between both is. And i repeat, my idea on this is in my opinion suitable.

    6 - Of course there will be more things like phenomone and something else which would make commander of alien feel like real commander at least as marines do, but why not this? Please find the point, not about side-effects.


    1 - As stated I do it all the time and very rarely have an issue.
    2 - I too want more Alien teamplay, but this does not provide it.
    3 - I completely understand your point. I think the problem is you don't completely understand your point. Regardless of the fact you don't want to give the aliens a disadvantage, your suggestion brings EXACTLY that reaction.
    4 - So you are suggesting a change which will make it easier for marines to win, to make aliens work together? I see what you want to achieve. What you fail to see is what the change you have suggested will achieve.
    5 - How does making structures more vulnerable to dying and losing the team a lot of res, show to people how important the commander is? If people are not listening to the commander, it doesn't matter what change you make, they won't listen to the commander. If the commander is not ordering people what to do, then use the eject button to get rid of him and put a new comm in :)
    6 - I've explained many times why not this :)

    QUOTE
    Please find the point, not about side-effects.


    Do you know about cause and effect? Action and re-action? Do you know that there is nothing you can do that does not have a side effect. You HAVE to look at the side effects. I have seen the point, and the consequences of your actions. You have only seen the point and are actively refusing to look at the side-effects. Why? Do you think if you ignore them they will go away. This change will MASSIVELY re-balance the game towards marines, and then the game would need massive amounts of re-balancing.

    After that, it sill won't achieve your aim of making the teamwork on aliens better. In this end this is a massive change with 1 result:

    A huge balance swing to marine advantage.

    That is all this suggestion can achieve. As I said before, the current Dev implemented change of moving the drifter to TRes has more chance of achieving what you want than your idea.

    I have understood your point, and the consequences of your point. This is why I can see it will not achieve what you want it to. You do not understand the consequences of your point. In a computer game, changes without understanding the consequences makes for a huge mess to be cleared up :) You must check consequences before trying stuff, not after.

    Someone can make a point about how easy it is to fire a gun, by firing off 2000 rounds in a shopping centre. Sure it shows their point, it's easy to fire a gun. But the consequences outweigh the worth of making the point. However if they chose a firing range, as the demo point, they could make their point, and their would be minor consequences.

    You must always consider the consequences of your actions, the same goes for ideas in a computer game :)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Classic319Classic319 Join Date: 2010-11-06 Member: 74789Posts: 196Members
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 12 2012, 12:23 AM) »
    I think there is possibly a language communication barrier here. I will try and clarify each of the points you make, and see if we can understand each other correctly :)


    Maybe, all i want is GOOD connection between alien commander and alien players, just like Marines, marines cannot win without good commander and good players following him so good. But aliens, no way, not that much difference whether the commander is good or not. Because all of other aliens do something else, but just some gorges spreading cysts, that's all. So i compemplated about it, and i found this drifter-idea is suitable.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,254Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I posted by accident without finishing the edit above, please now re-read the post :)
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