Im liking it so far, its such an open map! I get all OCD over wall geometry and greyboxing details so i keep adding detail to mine. This morning i decided to work on the ready room in detail, just to get a feel for texturing and propping, this is what ive got so far on one corridor, what do you think? <img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/NS2_Axon%20Progress%20Page/Manflesh.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Looking good so far, but honestly, while it's good to get a feel for texturing and lighting, it's much better to get the layout done first. I know some people prefer doing a whole room and moving on, but I have honestly found it much easier to go through designing the map in stages. Some parts are always ahead of others of course, but I try and leave texturing any parts of the map until at least a third of it is done :)
zombiehellmonkeyJoin Date: 2007-08-31Member: 62093Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1903505:date=Feb 15 2012, 04:03 PM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Feb 15 2012, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Decided to start fooling around in the spark editor recently. This is what i'm working on right now. Still a work in progress but it's a start.
SkymanderXGreen Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green.Join Date: 2011-07-29Member: 113006Members
if you build it they will come, no but really if this gets built with its current design it should stimulate some great gameplay. I can imagine spawns at the bottom of the map and seeing (on larger servers) marines waiting to be ambushed by kharaa in that first corridor. two rhines watching the enrance one the back for the vents. Hehe but don't five up on random spawns for this map or relocation. Both could work well based on design.
Hey Soul Rider, some really good thoughts in this thread. Some of your post should be made sticked. I am actually thinking about "remake" of my old map ns_hulk. You know, finally got in all those ideas what weren't possible on goldsource (and we did lot of crazy stuff here in NS mapping with it) ;-)
Currenty I am working on "proof of concept" - just trying to make one nice room, to evaluate editor possibilities and to define visual style. I really like your greybox prototyping idea and I have to look in that "space flow" thing (any articles to recomend?). I think good idea is to make simple grey map which should be intensively playtested and detailed afterwards.
With Hulk, I will probably go with Spread Offense layout or 5X6 Double Shortcut ,with fixed starts. I want a verticaly long and horizontaly symetric map, because that is how spaceships should look :-). Although I will have to put lot of thinking in the central, area because it will be of the most importance for aliens to get 3rd hive. Just don't know when I will get all the time to do this, I have to finish my diploma thesis first... damn :-(
Also did anyone noticed that Mineshaft is based on 6x8 Triple RT Asymetric, although only with doubleres ? :-)
Good to see, that there are still good mappers joining NS community. Its been 8 years since I've contributed and I see only few of NS mapping veterans, but is good, that new talents are flowing in. Actually Natural Selection always seemed to attract talented people :-) And <a href="http://www.button-masher.net/" target="_blank">some</a> of them made it in the gaming industry (my dream).
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1904584:date=Feb 18 2012, 06:39 PM:name=Rudy.cz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rudy.cz @ Feb 18 2012, 06:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey Soul Rider, some really good thoughts in this thread. Some of your post should be made sticked. I am actually thinking about "remake" of my old map ns_hulk. You know, finally got in all those ideas what weren't possible on goldsource (and we did lot of crazy stuff here in NS mapping with it) ;-)
Currenty I am working on "proof of concept" - just trying to make one nice room, to evaluate editor possibilities and to define visual style. I really like your greybox prototyping idea and I have to look in that "space flow" thing (any articles to recomend?). I think good idea is to make simple grey map which should be intensively playtested and detailed afterwards.
With Hulk, I will probably go with Spread Offense layout or 5X6 Double Shortcut ,with fixed starts. I want a verticaly long and horizontaly symetric map, because that is how spaceships should look :-). Although I will have to put lot of thinking in the central, area because it will be of the most importance for aliens to get 3rd hive. Just don't know when I will get all the time to do this, I have to finish my diploma thesis first... damn :-(
Also did anyone noticed that Mineshaft is based on 6x8 Triple RT Asymetric, although only with doubleres ? :-)
Good to see, that there are still good mappers joining NS community. Its been 8 years since I've contributed and I see only few of NS mapping veterans, but is good, that new talents are flowing in. Actually Natural Selection always seemed to attract talented people :-) And <a href="http://www.button-masher.net/" target="_blank">some</a> of them made it in the gaming industry (my dream).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks a lot Rudy! I'm glad you think some of my suggestions are worthwhile. This was the point of the thread, and I was hoping for more input from others by adding some of their own ideas, hey, maybe over time :)
Would be good to see hulk again, would it be based on the layout of hulk, or will it be completely new? If it's new, and takes no real cues from the old ns_hulk, I'd recommend giving it a new name, but hey, that's just personal opinion :)
To be fair, I hadn't paid attention to the design layout of mineshaft, spent a lot of time playing on it though :)
Work on my own map has pretty much stalled because I've been busy developing <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116252" target="_blank">NS2:Proving Grounds</a> - a full tdm mod.
I have done a bit of work on a map for that though. It's a re-imagining of Sgt Barlow's map co_mvm_reactor. Used to have loads of fun on that map, and the design is simple and works well with this kind of game. It's in very early greybox alpha...
Take your time over the map, and keep the thread updated with your early map progress :)
Good to see you again after all this time, if we start to get an influx of the old mapping community, combined with the fantastic newer mappers that are around, we should really see the level of maps blowing peoples minds again. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1903505:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:03 PM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Feb 15 2012, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Decided to start fooling around in the spark editor recently. This is what i'm working on right now. Still a work in progress but it's a start.
In my earlier design, I had the route laid out, and wanted to make the rooms around the route. I talked about designing the flow of the space around the route, rather than them being corridors. Here I will use some of the pictures I have posted and some new shots to try and explain what I mean, using my current map as an example. We will focus on one section of the map so you can see how I used the pre defined route, to create the flow of the space to force you along the direction I want, exactly like a corridor, but with a room instead.
So we are going to focus on the left side of the map:
Now you start to fill out the spaces in the room around the route with objects, which force the user to stick to the route you want. I have done this in this section by making them walk along the grating, but it I removed the grating, the room still forces the player to go the way I want.
Here is an early development shot of the shaping of the room around the route:
As you can see I am building objects to fill up the room shape, making it look like a room, but making it act like a corridor.
We are going to take quite a jump forward in time now and see the latest look of this room in more detail:
We start with a top down view of the room. I'm sorry the roof pillars are obscuring the view, you can't hide the commander group unfortunately.
Here you see where the main route takes you, this is guided by the flow of the room, but mainly the catwalk.
What is harder to see is the secondary routes available in this room, as a marine, you can get off the catwalk, but there are only two routes you can go if you do. The main routes is in blue, the alternatives are in red:
Here are some shots from other angles to show how I forced the flow. Note the large textured blocks etc are stand in either for models, or just need to be textured properly to look like some machinery :)
I can't get a good shot of the other route, because you are forced on a very specific non straight path around the pipes and models. What this means is players feel they have freedom and are getting off the route, but they can still only go where I let them :) The flow of the space forces that. I could also remove the catwalk, and the players would still be forced along either the main or 2 secondary routes, but making this primary route obviously forced, gives players who outwit the map (go a direction they are not forced) a sense of satisfaction, these secondary routes are for those who feel the need to outwit maps and mappers, although obviously they aren't :)
I hope that illustrates the concept a bit better. I will try and do a better job of explaining as I work through other rooms :)
<!--quoteo(post=1904590:date=Feb 18 2012, 07:52 PM:name=Soul_Rider)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Feb 18 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1904590"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would be good to see hulk again, would it be based on the layout of hulk, or will it be completely new? If it's new, and takes no real cues from the old ns_hulk, I'd recommend giving it a new name, but hey, that's just personal opinion :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We will see about that :-) I am not quite sure about this at this moment. Probably won't be a remake, more like a "restart". It will incorporate some of the areas for sure, but this time I want to take more sophisticated route and also make the gameplay side right.
When I was doing old Hulk I was naive. I never did any early playtesting to get the layout right. I wast just focused on modeling the spaceship and it resulted in eye candy but probably unplayable map. Maybe thats the reason why it never were played on the servers. Actually I've never played it online myslef with more then 1 other person :-D
That Proving grounds mod will be something like the Combat in NS1, because if yes, then there is one map which definitively need to be remade and it is co_Core.
I had small realisation recently...
I've just had a run trought all of the old and some custom NS1 maps for inspiration and so many memorable moments came back to me, that I've had to take some screenshots for recalling later. This is the kind of expirience good mapper also should have, he has to understand the game from point of the player and then try to put that back it in his maps. Will never forget moments when defending Atmospheric processing on Bast, or charge on the Generator hive in Caged throught that long corridor with overhead passage for skulks. Theese were the memories when I was newb to NS ant this hooked me up.
It is similar when you are DJ - are not going to be good DJ if you didn't spend good amount of time on the dancefloor and you don't know what music actually does to people (and I am no talking about pop music, but about something more "underground" ;-))
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Totally agree :)
The mod will be something like combat in that it's team deathmatch. There are no level ups or anything. co_core would be a good map to remake, fancy having a go to introduce yourself to spark a bit quicker? :)
hello i was a casual user of the "hammer" tool, however just started using spark editor and found the brush tool quite annoying to use. it's hard to make detail surface now.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
Your technique is how I create turns or columns (not curves) in my rooms and halls. I just draw a line and then start moving the vertices/lines. I didn't think to apply that to my detailed faces too. Great Suggestion :)
The inset/extrude technique is classic mapping 101, but it's far too limited for modern graphics. Ideally mappers would use prefab wall, corner, column, etc props which would be created in an external graphics program. Even though simple extrusions are cool compared to a flat wall, they can never approach the kind of representative detail that prefab art assets allow for.
I've thought of making my own set of prefab blocks for making levels but then I realized there are too many problems that just don't make it work with NS2. Cons -Lack of distinguishable uniqueness from room to room and map to map -Need for a variety of sized spaces -Would still need to do quite a lot of manual mapping techniques OR Too many prefabs would have to be made for all kinds of vent variations or other game play features
The trade off is faster built, great looking levels with just the right consistency. However, I do see the possibility of a randomly generated map if there are enough prefabs which is intriguing. Of course this would be in the year 2020 :p
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1908853:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:58 PM:name=matt1558)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matt1558 @ Mar 1 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The inset/extrude technique is classic mapping 101, but it's far too limited for modern graphics. Ideally mappers would use prefab wall, corner, column, etc props which would be created in an external graphics program. Even though simple extrusions are cool compared to a flat wall, they can never approach the kind of representative detail that prefab art assets allow for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <ol type='1'><li>Sifting through 10000 props will take hours and will eventually be slower than just recreating exactly what you want yourself.</li><li>Maps will look the same since there is nothing you can change about your prop other than scale.</li><li>Maps will also tend to look cramped with props and just have too much detail. It's not natural for everything to have huge amounts of detail in it.</li><li>Performance will suffer from many unneeded polygons.</li><li>There will be lots of problems with props just not fitting exactly into your overall style, props being too big/small or otherwise not fitting into the rest of your geometry.</li><li>... I'm sure there are many more reasons why props aren't the solution to all your problems.</li></ol> Take a look at Remedy's style in ns2_eclipse. It's gorgeous although or rather <b>because</b> he mostly uses base geometry instead of props.
It's simply not the case that there is some argument against using prefab props. That's just how level art works in 2012. I've taken an NS2 screenshot and outlined the prefab geometry so it's more clear how UW is using props in their levels.
edit - Eclipse is indeed very nice, however as Remedy states the only reason he's not using many props yet is because he's blocking in the level before detailing it.
<!--QuoteBegin- Remedy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( Remedy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the map will get more attention with more brush work and props to break up some of the plain repetitive areas eventually...There will be a point when some larger props will be needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
The dress does not make the man.
Take the same space without props and the gameplay is exactly the same. It depends what you want to create, and who you work for. Ok, good looks sell, but once you've gotten over the looks it get boring.
What you call modern I would call of the past. If you really want to push the gameplay experience, you would go to places where looks will have to be sacrificed.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1908853:date=Mar 1 2012, 10:58 PM:name=matt1558)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (matt1558 @ Mar 1 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1908853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The inset/extrude technique is classic mapping 101, but it's far too limited for modern graphics. Ideally mappers would use prefab wall, corner, column, etc props which would be created in an external graphics program. Even though simple extrusions are cool compared to a flat wall, they can never approach the kind of representative detail that prefab art assets allow for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes prefabs can be more detailed, but they have significant drawbacks. If I want to make ten detailed wall parts in a single room, all slightly different, I can easily do that with geometry design, moving the lines etc. With props I would need ten unique mapped models. The amount of work required in those models, is much more than the work required to move a few vertices/lines here and there.
With geometry it is very easy to take something you already have, and make it look completely different, and re-usable with a little amount of work.
Don't get me wrong, props do have their place in maps. They are the unique centre points, the madly inspiring designs, or just things you need to have exceptional detail on. There is a time and place for each, none is superior to the other, except in situation.
You crazy man. Detailed brushwork mapping is a thing of the past. Modular pieces, or props, are the standard these days. Probably over 75% of your map should be them. Minimum. Not only because they can be modeled with more detail in more powerful programs, they can also be more managed and manipulated much better as modules rather than brushwork. BUT most importantly, they are also more efficient for the engine to render than equivalent brushwork. (not that you could emulate such detail there anyway). Once you load the prop into memory it's easily fetched again.
I agree with both sides here, but the main problem I have with props is that there are 10x the amount of props than textures. For props based maps this is great, but I find many maps end up looking similar and vanilla even though there is a large amount of props. Though for textures the only variables making maps look individual is the geometry and how well the mapper works with the lack of texture variety. Also how they manage to salvage an appealing look to an area by reusing suitable textures for the flow of a map by aligning/trimming them so that you see the same texture, but it looks different.
Really it's down to what mappers find they can work with best or on the other hand what suits their desired look for a map.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1909167:date=Mar 2 2012, 12:42 PM:name=alibi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (alibi @ Mar 2 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909167"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You crazy man. Detailed brushwork mapping is a thing of the past. Modular pieces, or props, are the standard these days. Probably over 75% of your map should be them. Minimum. Not only because they can be modeled with more detail in more powerful programs, they can also be more managed and manipulated much better as modules rather than brushwork. BUT most importantly, they are also more efficient for the engine to render than equivalent brushwork. (not that you could emulate such detail there anyway). Once you load the prop into memory it's easily fetched again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I replaced all the detail geometry in my map with models, I'd spend the next 5 years making models, and no time making the map!
if someone wants to make a load of custom models for NS2, then I'll gladly use them.
To back up your statement that it is the way to go, maybe you can knock up a couple of hundred props for me for free in the next 3 months?
Failing that your argument is seriously flawed, as without models, we shouldn't bother making maps, thus there should be no custom maps for NS2.
I believe that while props look better in general, using geometry in your own way will be what makes a map unique. I sometimes get comments on my map "what prop is that" when it wasnt a prop, it was just using geometry creatively. But there are limitations when using geometry.
With that in mind however, i believe all of the current maps that we are developing will come with their own unique sets of props to add to what we already have, so youll have more goodies to play with in the future.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Just thought I'd post an update on my map. I've not been doing too much work on it, as I've been doing a lot of programming and have just got a new job, but here is an overview of the progress so far. Still in the greybox phase at the moment :)
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Overview of current GreyBox. It is moving along slowly. This will be released very early in development for testing, as I expect I will have to make a lot of changes, but we'll see how it goes..
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I love the look of your layout! Don't worry about the speed of progress, what is important is to work on it. As long as you keep working on it, the project moves forward. There isn't really an end to ns2 maps :p
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Thanks for the comments Evil_bOb1 :)
I understand what you mean, but the grey box is not even complete yet. Once I have completed the grey-box, I need to test the open rooms and general flow of the map, and once all that testing is done, I get to start work on the map. This is all pre-map work, and because I know all the real work lies ahead of me, the progress seems so slow.
It is progressing nicely though. Here's today's overview update. I have now connected both entrances to MS2, and one of the entrances to Observatory(Other Marine Start).
I really thought this was going to be one of the biggest NS2 maps yet seen, but the more complete it gets, the smaller it feels. As I can't open any official maps on my computer, can anyone give me the dimensions (in spark units) of some of the maps currently out there? I'd like to get a size comparison to understand if this map is as big as I first thought, or as small as it now feels...
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
Mineshaft's long diagonal is about 9700 units,
Tram roughly fits in a 5500 unit square.
Summit roughly fits in a 6500*7500 rectangle
And for comparison, turtle fits in a 5500 unit square. It is seen as a small map but it is about the size of tram. The layout makes things more direct. The way you make the player move around does affect the perception of the size of the map.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
Looks like my map is much bigger than those then, but why does it feel so small?
My map is roughly 10700 * 9000 units, although it is not evenly spread so it doesn't fill it totally.
I did some timing tests today, something I haven't done since I completed a pathing layout at the beginning of this map. Turns out that currently, everything I can measure is 25s away from the next point (marine walk). This is greatly reduced by sprinting. This is turning out much better than expected, and all the early timing work I carried out is beginning to show it's worth :)
Comments
<img src="http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q229/Redroniksre/NS2_Axon%20Progress%20Page/Manflesh.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a pretty good start so far.
Currenty I am working on "proof of concept" - just trying to make one nice room, to evaluate editor possibilities and to define visual style. I really like your greybox prototyping idea and I have to look in that "space flow" thing (any articles to recomend?). I think good idea is to make simple grey map which should be intensively playtested and detailed afterwards.
With Hulk, I will probably go with Spread Offense layout or 5X6 Double Shortcut ,with fixed starts. I want a verticaly long and horizontaly symetric map, because that is how spaceships should look :-). Although I will have to put lot of thinking in the central, area because it will be of the most importance for aliens to get 3rd hive. Just don't know when I will get all the time to do this, I have to finish my diploma thesis first... damn :-(
Also did anyone noticed that Mineshaft is based on 6x8 Triple RT Asymetric, although only with doubleres ? :-)
Good to see, that there are still good mappers joining NS community. Its been 8 years since I've contributed and I see only few of NS mapping veterans, but is good, that new talents are flowing in. Actually Natural Selection always seemed to attract talented people :-) And <a href="http://www.button-masher.net/" target="_blank">some</a> of them made it in the gaming industry (my dream).
Currenty I am working on "proof of concept" - just trying to make one nice room, to evaluate editor possibilities and to define visual style. I really like your greybox prototyping idea and I have to look in that "space flow" thing (any articles to recomend?). I think good idea is to make simple grey map which should be intensively playtested and detailed afterwards.
With Hulk, I will probably go with Spread Offense layout or 5X6 Double Shortcut ,with fixed starts. I want a verticaly long and horizontaly symetric map, because that is how spaceships should look :-). Although I will have to put lot of thinking in the central, area because it will be of the most importance for aliens to get 3rd hive. Just don't know when I will get all the time to do this, I have to finish my diploma thesis first... damn :-(
Also did anyone noticed that Mineshaft is based on 6x8 Triple RT Asymetric, although only with doubleres ? :-)
Good to see, that there are still good mappers joining NS community. Its been 8 years since I've contributed and I see only few of NS mapping veterans, but is good, that new talents are flowing in. Actually Natural Selection always seemed to attract talented people :-) And <a href="http://www.button-masher.net/" target="_blank">some</a> of them made it in the gaming industry (my dream).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks a lot Rudy! I'm glad you think some of my suggestions are worthwhile. This was the point of the thread, and I was hoping for more input from others by adding some of their own ideas, hey, maybe over time :)
Would be good to see hulk again, would it be based on the layout of hulk, or will it be completely new? If it's new, and takes no real cues from the old ns_hulk, I'd recommend giving it a new name, but hey, that's just personal opinion :)
To be fair, I hadn't paid attention to the design layout of mineshaft, spent a lot of time playing on it though :)
Work on my own map has pretty much stalled because I've been busy developing <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=116252" target="_blank">NS2:Proving Grounds</a> - a full tdm mod.
I have done a bit of work on a map for that though. It's a re-imagining of Sgt Barlow's map co_mvm_reactor. Used to have loads of fun on that map, and the design is simple and works well with this kind of game. It's in very early greybox alpha...
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/2012-02-18_00006.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Take your time over the map, and keep the thread updated with your early map progress :)
Good to see you again after all this time, if we start to get an influx of the old mapping community, combined with the fantastic newer mappers that are around, we should really see the level of maps blowing peoples minds again. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1903505:date=Feb 15 2012, 10:03 PM:name=LV426-Colonist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LV426-Colonist @ Feb 15 2012, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1903505"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Decided to start fooling around in the spark editor recently. This is what i'm working on right now. Still a work in progress but it's a start.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCwRKNGRt8</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, that's an amazing start. Feels more complete than my map does! What wall texture did you use?
In my earlier design, I had the route laid out, and wanted to make the rooms around the route. I talked about designing the flow of the space around the route, rather than them being corridors. Here I will use some of the pictures I have posted and some new shots to try and explain what I mean, using my current map as an example. We will focus on one section of the map so you can see how I used the pre defined route, to create the flow of the space to force you along the direction I want, exactly like a corridor, but with a room instead.
So we are going to focus on the left side of the map:
Here is the layout only map:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impact.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
and this is the route we are going to focus on:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/imp1room.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
First we do a little imaginary planning:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/imp2room.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
This gives a rough idea of how we are going to shape that route into a room.
So the next thing to do is box it out for real:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/imp3room.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now you start to fill out the spaces in the room around the route with objects, which force the user to stick to the route you want. I have done this in this section by making them walk along the grating, but it I removed the grating, the room still forces the player to go the way I want.
Here is an early development shot of the shaping of the room around the route:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/imp4room.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
As you can see I am building objects to fill up the room shape, making it look like a room, but making it act like a corridor.
We are going to take quite a jump forward in time now and see the latest look of this room in more detail:
We start with a top down view of the room. I'm sorry the roof pillars are obscuring the view, you can't hide the commander group unfortunately.
Here you see where the main route takes you, this is guided by the flow of the room, but mainly the catwalk.
What is harder to see is the secondary routes available in this room, as a marine, you can get off the catwalk, but there are only two routes you can go if you do. The main routes is in blue, the alternatives are in red:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/spaceflow1.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here are some shots from other angles to show how I forced the flow. Note the large textured blocks etc are stand in either for models, or just need to be textured properly to look like some machinery :)
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/spaceflow2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/spaceflow3.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I can't get a good shot of the other route, because you are forced on a very specific non straight path around the pipes and models. What this means is players feel they have freedom and are getting off the route, but they can still only go where I let them :) The flow of the space forces that. I could also remove the catwalk, and the players would still be forced along either the main or 2 secondary routes, but making this primary route obviously forced, gives players who outwit the map (go a direction they are not forced) a sense of satisfaction, these secondary routes are for those who feel the need to outwit maps and mappers, although obviously they aren't :)
I hope that illustrates the concept a bit better. I will try and do a better job of explaining as I work through other rooms :)
We will see about that :-) I am not quite sure about this at this moment. Probably won't be a remake, more like a "restart". It will incorporate some of the areas for sure, but this time I want to take more sophisticated route and also make the gameplay side right.
When I was doing old Hulk I was naive. I never did any early playtesting to get the layout right. I wast just focused on modeling the spaceship and it resulted in eye candy but probably unplayable map. Maybe thats the reason why it never were played on the servers. Actually I've never played it online myslef with more then 1 other person :-D
That Proving grounds mod will be something like the Combat in NS1, because if yes, then there is one map which definitively need to be remade and it is co_Core.
I had small realisation recently...
I've just had a run trought all of the old and some custom NS1 maps for inspiration and so many memorable moments came back to me, that I've had to take some screenshots for recalling later. This is the kind of expirience good mapper also should have, he has to understand the game from point of the player and then try to put that back it in his maps. Will never forget moments when defending Atmospheric processing on Bast, or charge on the Generator hive in Caged throught that long corridor with overhead passage for skulks. Theese were the memories when I was newb to NS ant this hooked me up.
It is similar when you are DJ - are not going to be good DJ if you didn't spend good amount of time on the dancefloor and you don't know what music actually does to people (and I am no talking about pop music, but about something more "underground" ;-))
The mod will be something like combat in that it's team deathmatch. There are no level ups or anything. co_core would be a good map to remake, fancy having a go to introduce yourself to spark a bit quicker? :)
Here's a simple wall detail I made using the above technique for my own map.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/DetailWall.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here's another really simple one:
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/Detailwall2.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42877240/mappics/ex.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Cons
-Lack of distinguishable uniqueness from room to room and map to map
-Need for a variety of sized spaces
-Would still need to do quite a lot of manual mapping techniques OR Too many prefabs would have to be made for all kinds of vent variations or other game play features
The trade off is faster built, great looking levels with just the right consistency. However, I do see the possibility of a randomly generated map if there are enough prefabs which is intriguing. Of course this would be in the year 2020 :p
<ol type='1'><li>Sifting through 10000 props will take hours and will eventually be slower than just recreating exactly what you want yourself.</li><li>Maps will look the same since there is nothing you can change about your prop other than scale.</li><li>Maps will also tend to look cramped with props and just have too much detail. It's not natural for everything to have huge amounts of detail in it.</li><li>Performance will suffer from many unneeded polygons.</li><li>There will be lots of problems with props just not fitting exactly into your overall style, props being too big/small or otherwise not fitting into the rest of your geometry.</li><li>... I'm sure there are many more reasons why props aren't the solution to all your problems.</li></ol>
Take a look at Remedy's style in ns2_eclipse. It's gorgeous although or rather <b>because</b> he mostly uses base geometry instead of props.
<img src="http://i44.tinypic.com/14ndxqu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
edit - Eclipse is indeed very nice, however as Remedy states the only reason he's not using many props yet is because he's blocking in the level before detailing it.
<!--QuoteBegin- Remedy+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ( Remedy)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the map will get more attention with more brush work and props to break up some of the plain repetitive areas eventually...There will be a point when some larger props will be needed<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take the same space without props and the gameplay is exactly the same. It depends what you want to create, and who you work for. Ok, good looks sell, but once you've gotten over the looks it get boring.
What you call modern I would call of the past. If you really want to push the gameplay experience, you would go to places where looks will have to be sacrificed.
Yes prefabs can be more detailed, but they have significant drawbacks. If I want to make ten detailed wall parts in a single room, all slightly different, I can easily do that with geometry design, moving the lines etc. With props I would need ten unique mapped models. The amount of work required in those models, is much more than the work required to move a few vertices/lines here and there.
With geometry it is very easy to take something you already have, and make it look completely different, and re-usable with a little amount of work.
Don't get me wrong, props do have their place in maps. They are the unique centre points, the madly inspiring designs, or just things you need to have exceptional detail on. There is a time and place for each, none is superior to the other, except in situation.
Modular pieces, or props, are the standard these days. Probably over 75% of your map should be them. Minimum.
Not only because they can be modeled with more detail in more powerful programs, they can also be more managed and manipulated much better as modules rather than brushwork.
BUT most importantly, they are also more efficient for the engine to render than equivalent brushwork. (not that you could emulate such detail there anyway). Once you load the prop into memory it's easily fetched again.
Really it's down to what mappers find they can work with best or on the other hand what suits their desired look for a map.
Modular pieces, or props, are the standard these days. Probably over 75% of your map should be them. Minimum.
Not only because they can be modeled with more detail in more powerful programs, they can also be more managed and manipulated much better as modules rather than brushwork.
BUT most importantly, they are also more efficient for the engine to render than equivalent brushwork. (not that you could emulate such detail there anyway). Once you load the prop into memory it's easily fetched again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I replaced all the detail geometry in my map with models, I'd spend the next 5 years making models, and no time making the map!
if someone wants to make a load of custom models for NS2, then I'll gladly use them.
To back up your statement that it is the way to go, maybe you can knock up a couple of hundred props for me for free in the next 3 months?
Failing that your argument is seriously flawed, as without models, we shouldn't bother making maps, thus there should be no custom maps for NS2.
With that in mind however, i believe all of the current maps that we are developing will come with their own unique sets of props to add to what we already have, so youll have more goodies to play with in the future.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/ns2_impact.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Thoughts so far :)
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impactoverview280312.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I understand what you mean, but the grey box is not even complete yet. Once I have completed the grey-box, I need to test the open rooms and general flow of the map, and once all that testing is done, I get to start work on the map. This is all pre-map work, and because I know all the real work lies ahead of me, the progress seems so slow.
It is progressing nicely though. Here's today's overview update. I have now connected both entrances to MS2, and one of the entrances to Observatory(Other Marine Start).
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Soulrefuge/impactoverview290312.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I really thought this was going to be one of the biggest NS2 maps yet seen, but the more complete it gets, the smaller it feels. As I can't open any official maps on my computer, can anyone give me the dimensions (in spark units) of some of the maps currently out there? I'd like to get a size comparison to understand if this map is as big as I first thought, or as small as it now feels...
Tram roughly fits in a 5500 unit square.
Summit roughly fits in a 6500*7500 rectangle
And for comparison, turtle fits in a 5500 unit square. It is seen as a small map but it is about the size of tram. The layout makes things more direct. The way you make the player move around does affect the perception of the size of the map.
My map is roughly 10700 * 9000 units, although it is not evenly spread so it doesn't fill it totally.
I did some timing tests today, something I haven't done since I completed a pathing layout at the beginning of this map. Turns out that currently, everything I can measure is 25s away from the next point (marine walk). This is greatly reduced by sprinting. This is turning out much better than expected, and all the early timing work I carried out is beginning to show it's worth :)